Where were the TP sages when Ganondorf took over in OoT?

Jaymz asked this in another thread called favorite TP characters, and I feel it should be discussed. What do people think of this?

Ok, here's the thing. We all agree that the Mirror of Twilight has actually been around before Link's quest in OoT. Some, like me, think the backstory of OoT (the fierce war) and the backstory of TP regarding the Twili may be the same thing. I started a thread on that before, and it was decided there was little evidence for or against that.

So where were the Arbiter Sages? Why didn't they fight Ganon instead of waiting seven years for the Hero to revive seven other sages? The Arbiter Sages even look more like the ALttP sages than the Awakened Sages, and we all know OoT was originally meant to explain the ALttP backstory.

So, why didn't the AS fight? The only guess I have is what is shown in a cutscene in TP: Ganondorf recieves the ToP somehow, kills one of them, and the others have to send him through the mirror to save themselves. When Ganondorf grabs the ToP and leaves the SR, he's too powerful for the AS to defeat.

So maybe they aren't strong enough. Granted, even the Awakened Sages aren't strong enough to seal Ganondorf until Link kicks his butt. So, in the end, maybe the AS are in the same boat as Zelda: just waiting for the Hero to appear.

Anyone agree with that?

Could this perhaps be in some way to Link's interactions with the Sages? (Long shot) But could perhaps the Sages have been in their TP form in OoT, but somehow taken on the forms of the OoT sages as and when Link met them? Maybe their 'awakening' was the power of these Sages entering into the bodies of these normal people that Link knew, perhaps in order to make him more willing to rescue them? - In fact no, Link didn't know who they were until after awakening them.

My thought, then is basically that they are actually the same Sages in both games, but perhaps took on different forms, the ones present in TP taking on a 'natural' form.

This 'may' explain their apparent lack of power over Ganondorf without Link's intervention, as in both games, because they would be each of them one and the same Sage as encountered in OoT, which as stated could not overcome Ganondorf alone.

Sorry if that's a bit unclear, I can't quite get my words around it.

Psst, Daphnes - It has a Z!

I think the Arbiter Sages are actually more recent. They acted as TP Zeldas tutors, so perhaps they weren't around at that stage?

Oops. I pressed the wrong key.

So your saying the Arbiter sages spiritually linked themselves to the OoT sages? That's an interesting thought. I supposed their TP forms could be more spiritual, and the Sage's Sword used to impale Ganondorf was levitated, instead of the sage thrusting it in with his own body.

Which begs the question how many Sages are there? I really doubt that there would be 'another' set of six Sages, all of the same Elements, and besides, wouldn't they have been around at the same time as those in OoT? From Ganondorf's arrest in OoT to his failed execution in TP could mirror the time from his successful capture of the Triforce and the conquering of Hyrule to the point of his banishment at the end and in the Adult timeline could they not?

Edit: AAGH! Brainwave, but I may be wrong, did it not say in WW that Ganondorf killed Laruto(?) at some stage in his life, and was it not the Water Sage he killed in TP? Could it have been the same person in both instances? I'm thinking Laruto - Ruto, maybe? This is a really long shot so I'll accept it gracefully if it's proven wrong.

I just take it that the Arbiter's Grounds Sages were supposed to guard the Mirror of Twilight, and word of Ganondorf conquering Hyrule came to them when it was too late to stop him. By this I mean that he had learned too much of the ToP's abilities, and that something such as transporting the Mirror of Twilight and sending him to the Twilight Realm was impossible. Don't forget that the Sages didn't beat Ganondorf in TP--they just sent him to the Twilight Realm with the Mirror of Twilight just after he realized he had the ToP. I think they were basically hiding in the desert, or Ganondorf eventually killed them.

Okay, I apologize if someone's already said this:

Ganondorf in TP and WW is the same guy...different things happened to him, but he's the same man. He killed Laruto and Fado ( Sages in the Great Sea/Hyrule ) what's to say he didn't kill the 6 original sages in OoT, therefore causing the new ones ( Saria, Darunia etc ) to awaken?
Since the Sages of TP seem to be the same ones around at Child OoT's time ( to execute Ganondorf ) maybe they were the original ones killed in the alternate future of OoT?
I can see a slew of problems with this, as they were not mentionned in OoT..( but then retcons have happened since ) and the Master Sword seemed to be at full power when Link awakened, despite the lack of Sages. ( or maybe by awakening them he did return the power to it, but we didn't see it )

This really makes my brain hurt. Let me get this gliderpilotgirl, you suggest in the Adult timeline, that Ganondorf killed the six sages, in the form we see in TP, at some point before Link met Rauru in the Chamber, thus requiring a new six sages to be awoken, i.e. Saria, Ruto, etc?

Originally Posted by Jaymz

This really makes my brain hurt. Let me get this gliderpilotgirl, you suggest in the Adult timeline, that Ganondorf killed the six sages, in the form we see in TP, at some point before Link met Rauru in the Chamber, thus requiring a new six sages to be awoken, i.e. Saria, Ruto, etc?

Time travel usually does that. After OoT and MM, seriously, I feel sorry for Link.

Pretty much: Except for Rauru as he somehow was immune in "this last stronghold" ( Or something along those lines he remarks on )
So five new sages...I'm thinking a similar thing as to how new Sages were awoken in WW.

At the time of young link pulling the master sword from the pedestal, Saria, Zelda and Ruto were not sages, and Rauru already was. How many of the others were already sages, and how many had yet to be called?

In fact, Saria and Ruto, who were just fine until the great war of OoT started, had to be reawakened thereafter, and so their fate rested completely with OoT Link and it would seem that with their calling as sages, Rauru also put THEM to sleep. I can't remember if Darunia had the same story, Link meets her in the child timeline, and there is no evidence that I recall that she was or was not a sage yet.

This is all very interesting, since we know from Aunoma's quote that the scene where Ganon was being judged had to be VERY close to the time that Link WOULD HAVE pulled the master sword in OoT, but he never does. And so, those sages that were not sages as a result of the great war... were they ever called as sages at all?

My personal belief, is that the very forms of the sages changed with the pulling of the Master Sword as a result of them being placed in the sacred realm for seven years, if they were not already there, and therefore MOST IF NOT ALL of the Arbiter Sages were DIFFERENT sages that may have already been defeated by Ganondorf DURING the great war that DOES NOT HAPPEN in the child timeline, thus the calling of so many new sages.

That means that there had to be one sage from OoT and TP that was the same, the sage of light, Rauru. That also means that the sages that we see in TP actually predate the OoT sages.

Personal opinion: The TP sages are avatars (spirit-selves) of the OoT sages. They didn't appear when Ganondorf took over in OoT because his power prevented them from being awakened.

NOTE: We know that these are avatars, because we know Rauru does not appear as such in OoT, but these sages call themselves the "ancient sages". However, I would submit that this does not mean they are all the very same individuals who forged the Master Sword; simply that they are members of the same fraternity of sages.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Personal opinion: The TP sages are avatars (spirit-selves) of the OoT sages. They didn't appear when Ganondorf took over in OoT because his power prevented them from being awakened.

NOTE: We know that these are avatars, because we know Rauru does not appear as such in OoT, but these sages call themselves the "ancient sages". However, I would submit that this does not mean they are all the very same individuals who forged the Master Sword; simply that they are members of the same fraternity of sages.

Okay...so they are sages without being awakened IYO.
Could this be why Rauru possibly exists in a tangible form in OoT ( possibly as KG the Owl as the Gossip Stone stone says ) yet is different from his projection in the Temple of Light?

In my opinion, they are a diffrent department/sect/type whatever you wanna call it. They are only responsible for the mirror. Also, unlike the OOT sages, they are not mortal (or at least they aren't corporeal) thus explianing why they are spirits instead of normal people. There is also the possibility that arbiters grounds wasn't built yet in OOT, thus they had not been established.

If they were indeed of a different sect, then I'd personally wonder why they'd be so engaged with the plight concerning Ganondorf, and further why they were bearing elemental symbols on their clothing matching those that were mentioned in OoT.

I, after some thought, think that they might be the same Sages in both games, but somehow different owing to certain circumstances hadn't taken on the same forms. Perhaps through not being suppressed by Ganondorf, therefore being woken by Link, they didn't need to find physical forms through which to act and could maintain their spiritual form. - It does still leave a lot to be asked, but I think it makes sense.

Notably, FSA's maidens can also take on alternate forms - fairy spirits.

Never played FSA, but from what I gathered, are these Maidens meant to be the descendants of the Sages? Thus from the forms they take are we leaning towards the Sages being more spirits than actual physical people who die and are reborn? Or am I wrong there?

Originally Posted by Jaymz

I, after some thought, think that they might be the same Sages in both games, but somehow different owing to certain circumstances hadn't taken on the same forms. Perhaps through not being suppressed by Ganondorf, therefore being woken by Link, they didn't need to find physical forms through which to act and could maintain their spiritual form. - It does still leave a lot to be asked, but I think it makes sense.

Well then you ignored my post. We almost know for certain that at least three of them were not the same sages.

Most of them were called because Ganon entered the Sacred Realm. In fact, there's only two that have evidence otherwise, the shadow sage was called because she gaurded the shadow temple, and Rauru.