Force Gems in PH =/= TMC after TWW.

THIS THREAD CONTAINS LARGE SPOILERS ABOUT PH! READ AT RISK.



As some of you may or may not have noticed ... Force gems are in the Single player PH.

HOWEVER this is no exuse to put TMC after PH.

The Force gems were created by the ocean king (Or so it says in PH)
However ... if I were a god would I live only for a breif period of time? Of course not.

The ocean king was there befoe OoT. Maybe even TMC [If like me you belive TMC is first(Which it is if you place the majority of games in the child timeline)]

Hence the Force Gems would have gone off in two different directions.
The first of course going to PH and the second going to FS/FSA.

I suppose either theory would work. That does put FS and FSA after TWW, though, doesn't it? Unless someone puts all three games before OoT, that means at least two FS games are in the adult timeline.

I question this (although I haven't beaten PH completely and just found out

Spoiler (Highlight to read):

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Grandpa

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is the Ocean King.) But I hardly think he existed before Ocarina of Time... Probably so. I dunno. I must play more.

The force gems are nothing more than switch activating items, and really have no real role in the Storyline, much like the PH was nothing more than item and not really of Timeline use (once gain, I must play the game so I may back this up later).

Originally Posted by Pinecove

The Force gems were created by the ocean king (Or so it says in PH)

The Force Gems found in the Temple of the Ocean King are pieces of life force recovered by the Ocean King. The Phantom Hourglass is made from the Force Gems of the Ocean King. The Sand of Hours is made up of shards of physically manifest life force. Force Gems have been around forever, it seems, as they are a physical manifestation of life force.

Force Gems in FSA, on the other hand, are known for being the power source of the Four Sword. The light force in TMC, when used in tandem with Ezlo's magical wishing cap, showers the "power of life" upon Hyrule, undoing Vaati's wrongs. It is known as the power passed down through Hyrule's princesses, and was first given to the bravest of men to defeat monsters in TMC's backstory.

PH takes the FSA Force Gems and combines them with the concept of "force" from TMC.

We learn several things about the Force Gems and light force via this new explanation:

1A. The light force cannot possibly be the first source of life force, as life force is necessary to survive, and people certainly predated the gifting of the light force by the Minish.
1B. The light force may, however, be the first introduction of a special power to Hyrule's royal family.
1C. PH, however, poses that the traditional sacred power possessed by Hyrule's princesses is in fact power granted by the Triforce.
1D. Therefore, we can assume either (1) the light force came about as a special power source after the Triforce was removed from the family's possession in TWW; (2) the light force was in fact given to the royal family prior to their ever obtaining the Triforce of Wisdom; (3) the light force is in fact the Triforce (?)
(NOTE: I apt for the first assumption; since TWW references the Triforce as being the royal family's sacred power, I feel this leaves no room for the light force to fit this role to any capacity prior to TWW.)

2A. The Four Sword is in fact powered by life force (since Force Gems are life force). It is made from adding the Four Elements to the White Sword in TMC.
2B. The Phantom Sword is also powered by life force (since the Sand of Hours is life force). It is made from the Three Pure Metals in PH.
2C. Both weapons are forged by blacksmiths who specialize in crafting sacred blades.

if I were a god would I live only for a breif period of time? Of course not.

The Ocean King is not a god; he is a spirit.

If he exists to guard the part of the sea you explore in PH, would he have existed prior to that sea being formed [in the flood]?

Hence the Force Gems would have gone off in two different directions.
The first of course going to PH and the second going to FS/FSA.

The Force Gems must serve as life force no matter which direction they go in; PH establishes that that is, in fact, what they are.


If the Force Gems are not being referenced to imply a Four Swords connection, why are they being used in the story at all? We've used less story-sensitive details to justify timeline connections before (FSA-ALttP).

when used in tandem with Ezlo's magical wishing cap, showers the "power of life" upon Hyrule, undoing Vaati's wrongs.

In that case it makes TMC havew more reason to come first. The life force in TMC if after PH can't exist untill TMC. On the other hand if TMC is before OoT ... Then it all works out.

1A. The light force cannot possibly be the first source of life force, as life force is necessary to survive, and people certainly predated the gifting of the light force by the Minish.
1B. The light force may, however, be the first introduction of a special power to Hyrule's royal family.
1C. PH, however, poses that the traditional sacred power possessed by Hyrule's princesses is in fact power granted by the Triforce.
1D. Therefore, we can assume either (1) the light force came about as a special power source after the Triforce was removed from the family's possession in TWW; (2) the light force was in fact given to the royal family prior to their ever obtaining the Triforce of Wisdom; (3) the light force is in fact the Triforce (?)
(NOTE: I apt for the first assumption; since TWW references the Triforce as being the royal family's sacred power, I feel this leaves no room for the light force to fit this role to any capacity prior to TWW.)

Asumation 1: Or that it came about as a special power before OoT and vanished.
Asuamtion 2: Or that the light force was never given to the royal family but just known about.
Asumation 3: It could be the "Fourth peice" of the Triforce.

2A. The Four Sword is in fact powered by life force (since Force Gems are life force). It is made from adding the Four Elements to the White Sword in TMC.
2B. The Phantom Sword is also powered by life force (since the Sand of Hours is life force). It is made from the Three Pure Metals in PH.
2C. Both weapons are forged by blacksmiths who specialize in crafting sacred blades.

A. You said in the beggining of your post that they're completely different. Which they are. By saying this you're asuming that FS takes place after PH when that's precisly what we're arguing about. If FS indeed comes about in the child timeline they could serve completely different purposes.
B.The Phantom sword is only powered by life force because the PH is it's handle. Also where do you think the life force first came from? Exactly. TMC being first solves this.
C. What are you trying to say here? At any rate ... No. The FS was made by elements. The elements are what makes it up. However the PS is completely skill forged.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

In that case it makes TMC havew more reason to come first. The life force in TMC if after PH can't exist untill TMC. On the other hand if TMC is before OoT ... Then it all works out.

Life force can't ever not exist.

Note that I'm saying that TMC's light force CAN'T POSSIBLY be the source of life force.

Asumation 1: Or that it came about as a special power before OoT and vanished.

It can't vanish, unless this quote has no significance:

But surely, this is not the end of Zelda
and Link's adventures in Hyrule.
...as long as the power of the light
force echoes throughout the ages.

And if this quote has no significance, then there's no justification whatsoever for TMC being first (since this quote is the only real proof for it).

Asuamtion 2: Or that the light force was never given to the royal family but just known about.

"And the force of the golden light,
embodied in Hyrule's princess,
shone forth upon the lands."

Definitely was given to the royal family.

Asumation 3: It could be the "Fourth peice" of the Triforce.

Ganondorf was out to steal the sacred power of the royal family (as the prologue to PH states, which is where I got the quote), and he was trying to steal the Triforce of Wisdom from Zelda.

Nice try, though.

A. You said in the beggining of your post that they're completely different. Which they are. By saying this you're asuming that FS takes place after PH when that's precisly what we're arguing about. If FS indeed comes about in the child timeline they could serve completely different purposes.

PH introduces Force Gems (the items) as the physical manifestations of force THAT WERE RECAPTURED BY THE OCEAN KING.

Thus, without PH, we have no explanation for the Force Gems appearing as a physical manifestation of force in the first place.

B.The Phantom sword is only powered by life force because the PH is it's handle. Also where do you think the life force first came from? Exactly. TMC being first solves this.

LIFE FORCE CANNOT "COME FROM" THE LIGHT FORCE.

C. What are you trying to say here? At any rate ... No. The FS was made by elements. The elements are what makes it up. However the PS is completely skill forged.

The sword was definitely forged by Melari, thank you very much.

Life force can't ever not exist.

Note that I'm saying that TMC's light force CAN'T POSSIBLY be the source of life force.

Well then what can? I think that TMC is the perfect creation.

It can't vanish, unless this quote has no significance:

But surely, this is not the end of Zelda
and Link's adventures in Hyrule.
...as long as the power of the light
force echoes throughout the ages.

And if this quote has no significance, then there's no justification whatsoever for TMC being first (since this quote is the only real proof for it).

TMC has proof for it being first if you place the majority of games in the Child Timeline.

"And the force of the golden light,
embodied in Hyrule's princess,
shone forth upon the lands."

Definitely was given to the royal family.

No. The Minish could have hidden it in Zelda.

Ganondorf was out to steal the sacred power of the royal family (as the prologue to PH states, which is where I got the quote), and he was trying to steal the Triforce of Wisdom from Zelda.

Nice try, though.

Yes but seeing as at the end of TMC the light force vanishes ...

PH introduces Force Gems (the items) as the physical manifestations of force THAT WERE RECAPTURED BY THE OCEAN KING.

Thus, without PH, we have no explanation for the Force Gems appearing as a physical manifestation of force in the first place.

Yes we do. The fact that the ocen king was around before OoT.

He's a spirit. Like a ghost. so hence he could have been around for a long time.

LIFE FORCE CANNOT "COME FROM" THE LIGHT FORCE.

Light force + magic cap = Light force.

The sword was definitely forged by Melari, thank you very much.

However the forgedness wasn't what "made" the FS whereas in PH the 3 metals do.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Well then what can? I think that TMC is the perfect creation.

Life forms exist before TMC; it's impossible for them to exist without life force.

Therefore, TMC does not mark the creation of life force.

TMC has proof for it being first if you place the majority of games in the Child Timeline.

How?

No. The Minish could have hidden it in Zelda.

They gave it to the hero.
It was hidden in Zelda later.

Yes but seeing as at the end of TMC the light force vanishes ...

No it doesn't.

Yes we do. The fact that the ocen king was around before OoT.

The Ocean King's purpose is to defend a portion of the Great Sea; the Great Sea didn't exist before OoT.

How do you figure the Ocean King was around before the ocean he guards was?

However the forgedness wasn't what "made" the FS whereas in PH the 3 metals do.

I don't see why it matters when the elements were applied; a master swordsmith was still required to forge the sacred blade.

Life forms exist before TMC; it's impossible for them to exist without life force.

Who is them? The Hylians? I don't see THEM bursting into sand when the die.

How?

The fact that the evidance to support it being after TWW also is evidance to back it up coming before OoT. Also there's no proof for it coming after TP.

They gave it to the hero.
It was hidden in Zelda later.

Yes but who says that the Hero served under Royal Blood?

No it doesn't.

Well pretty much. Enough that it could be powerless enough to not maintain being a peice of the now Triforce.

How do you figure the Ocean King was around before the ocean he guards was?

The feirce war.

I don't see why it matters when the elements were applied; a master swordsmith was still required to forge the sacred blade.

Look at it this way.

The "Specialness" of the PB is made by the three metals that it was forged from.

Whereas the "Specialness" of the FS lies within the elements.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Who is them? The Hylians? I don't see THEM bursting into sand when the die.

"Them" is anything that is alive.
Life force is the power that animates life (hence the name, obv.).

The fact that the evidance to support it being after TWW also is evidance to back it up coming before OoT. Also there's no proof for it coming after TP.

The Triumph Forks reference and the Oracles cameo are the only real references to specific games outside the FS saga, and neither reference fits pre-OoT.

Yes but who says that the Hero served under Royal Blood?

They gave it to the hero, but it was afterwards embodied in Hyrule's princess.

The feirce war.

Took place before the Great Sea appeared? (i.e., before any event we can connect to the Ocean King)

The "Specialness" of the PB is made by the three metals that it was forged from.

Whereas the "Specialness" of the FS lies within the elements.

Not really. Any sacred blade could have been forged of those three metals.
The special power of the PB is its ability to harness the power of the Sands of Hours (i.e., life force).

1) In TMC, the elements are required to restore the sacred blade.
2) In FSA, it is the Force Gems (i.e., life force) that are the power source of the blade.