The Fierce Diety Mask

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

That's cultural, which can change, not racial. That can change in the Hyrule/Termina translation, as general society is far more secular in Termina.

We can't really say anything racial about these two people because everyone in Ikana is dead and gone. We need to turn to what little we can get from the rotted appearances of King Ikana, his guards, and the designs and paintings on and in the castle. Also, with a well in the area that had some zombies and creatures of the supernatural in there, Ikana could have very well been some kind of Kakariko instead of Hyrule. Looking at the castle in Youtube videos, it reminds me more of the Gerudo Fortress (I know that isn't in Kakariko) than Hyrule Castle. There's parallels, and then there's just different.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

However, I find it strange they weren't given a different role. In a sea of counterparts with vastly different roles, they stick out.

If I recall correctly, they were simply just normal composers for Ikana (or descended from them, considering Sharp's wish to Skull Kid to bring back everyone in the land), not royal composers. Now, if they were just mediocre composers for Ikana, they'd be filling their model-possible roles more than filling a parallel (I doubt Nintendo would make living versions of them) and with the soul-selling angle (I'm not sure that they could sell their souls if they were dead), they might have come from Clock Town but had roots in Ikana. In fact, I think it was only Flat who held an interest in Ikana, possibly meaning that they didn't come from there themselves, or that they were nowhere near as important to the royalty as their Hylian counterparts.

Also, the fact that "their" song was the Song of Storms instead of the Sun's Song might be (weakly) hinting towards some kind of Kakariko angle, though it is more plausible that there was just stormy weather between the two (they hated each other.)

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

Again, sorry if I was vague- wisdom doesn't mean peace, however. The Hylians of Hyrule are more of a scholarly and "advanced" society, while Ikana is obviously a military culture. Both, however, are warlike. And that's exactly it- the Hylians are known for their wars. The Sheikah dwindled in the Hylians' various wars and began to recount Hyrule's bloody history in the Shadow Temple. However, in Hyrule, they are successful. What if they lost?

Well, regarding Hyrule, they had about ten years of peace time, so the historical/advanced angle could be fairly new, and just because Hyrule is doing the best doesn't necessarily mean that only Hyrule has a historical/advanced background. Ikana, looking at the fact that a gossip stone mentioned a castle garden and the ReDeads were once dancers, doesn't seem so much a military culture than a people who fought a war and tied (but everyone died.) The Hylians are also only really known for one war specifically relating to them, and that was the Imprisioning War, due to the fact that the Fierce War was between everyone. Other than a monarchy, Hyrule and Ikana really don't seem to be parallels. Also, while the armor of the Clock Town guards resembles that of Hyrule Castle's guards, King Ikana's guards appear to be dressed differently.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

Gor Coron says this, and he knows where the Hidden Village is.

Eralk, if the Ikanians were Hylian parallels, I don't see how all of Ikana would be destroyed: The Ikanian people could still fight, and Ikana doesn't appear to have any Sheikah counterparts, though Ikana fought against the Garo.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

The only people allowed into Zora's Domain are those who know Zelda's Lullaby, which must be taught by a member of the Royal Family to whomever wishes to enter. It's not a big group.

Zora's Domain is the Zora's home (and seeing as how all water comes from it, it seems sensible to protect it), and there must be a way in other than the waterfall path considering that Ganondorf reached Jabu-Jabu. While King Hyrule trusted Ganondorf, I seriously doubt that he'd teach him the song of the Royal Family. Finally, in the Child Timeline the Zora are conducting a local search to find Princess Ruto. In the Adult Timeline, they are all frozen. They don't have much of an opportunity to get out.

Now granted, while it takes place a hundred years or so after OOT, in TP the Zora actually travel a lot. There are Zora found at Death Mountain in TP, and if they'd go to Death Mountain of all places, I can see them traveling to other places as well (save for Snowpeak and the Gerudo Desert.)

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

The Deku of Hyrule are different. They're totemic, which goes to a Native American influence, not the general European/British influence of the Deku of Termina.

Where are the totemic symbols? In OOT, we only saw enough of them to know that they lived somewhere in the Lost Woods, had businessmen, and regarded Queen Gohma as their actual Queen.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

This is from the Deku Scrubs who grade your masks- I believe this is when you show them the Skull Mask.

Maybe that could be their religion? They do see Queen Gohma as their Queen and they did say sacred. What they'd pray to, I don't know, but the totem could be about religious beliefs. Regardless, looking at Deku Scrub society in Termina, with palace guards who tell the time (I think), a worried king (as a parallel to the unworried King of Hyrule), and a kidnapped princess, the Terminian Deku Scrubs appear to be more of a parallel than the Hylian Royal Family, with a butler instead of a bodyguard. While Zelda has a history of getting kidnapped as well, I interpret the kidnapped princess scenario as more a glue between the Hylians and Deku Scrubs to point out their connection.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

We can't really say anything racial about these two people because everyone in Ikana is dead and gone. We need to turn to what little we can get from the rotted appearances of King Ikana, his guards, and the designs and paintings on and in the castle. Also, with a well in the area that had some zombies and creatures of the supernatural in there, Ikana could have very well been some kind of Kakariko instead of Hyrule. Looking at the castle in Youtube videos, it reminds me more of the Gerudo Fortress (I know that isn't in Kakariko) than Hyrule Castle. There's parallels, and then there's just different.

You can certainly see it as different, of course, but it's not going to be a perfect parallel- the Deku of Termina's culture is very different from the Hylians of Hyrule.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

If I recall correctly, they were simply just normal composers for Ikana (or descended from them, considering Sharp's wish to Skull Kid to bring back everyone in the land), not royal composers. Now, if they were just mediocre composers for Ikana, they'd be filling their model-possible roles more than filling a parallel (I doubt Nintendo would make living versions of them) and with the soul-selling angle (I'm not sure that they could sell their souls if they were dead), they might have come from Clock Town but had roots in Ikana. In fact, I think it was only Flat who held an interest in Ikana, possibly meaning that they didn't come from there themselves, or that they were nowhere near as important to the royalty as their Hylian counterparts.

Also, the fact that "their" song was the Song of Storms instead of the Sun's Song might be (weakly) hinting towards some kind of Kakariko angle, though it is more plausible that there was just stormy weather between the two (they hated each other.)

I served the Ikana Royal family.
I am the composer called Flat.

The songs connected to the Royal
Family that remain here were all
composed by my brother and I.

Flat, my dear brother.

Forgive your foolish brother who
dreamt of the revival of the Royal
Family...

Both Flat and Sharp specifically worked for the Ikana Royal Family. The Song of Storms was given a reason- it's Flat's anger and sadness towards his brother's curse.

The thousand years of raindrops
summoned by my song are my
tears.

The thunder that strikes the earth
is my anger!

Here is written the song that
shall cleanse his cursed, black
soul.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Well, regarding Hyrule, they had about ten years of peace time, so the historical/advanced angle could be fairly new, and just because Hyrule is doing the best doesn't necessarily mean that only Hyrule has a historical/advanced background. Ikana, looking at the fact that a gossip stone mentioned a castle garden and the ReDeads were once dancers, doesn't seem so much a military culture than a people who fought a war and tied (but everyone died.) The Hylians are also only really known for one war specifically relating to them, and that was the Imprisioning War, due to the fact that the Fierce War was between everyone. Other than a monarchy, Hyrule and Ikana really don't seem to be parallels. Also, while the armor of the Clock Town guards resembles that of Hyrule Castle's guards, King Ikana's guards appear to be dressed differently.

The Sheikah have devoted a temple to Hyrule's bloody history, and their numbers dwindled during the prolonged wars- ostensibly, at the beck and call of the Hylians. Hyrule is a bloody place, and if the Hylians came out on top, they didn't do it peacefully.

Speaking of it, there's a certain parallel between descriptions of Hyrulian and Ikana history:

Ikana Kingdom was founded on
this land, stained with a history
of darkness, drenched in blood...

Shadow Temple...
Here is gathered Hyrule's bloody
history of greed and hatred...

That's culture. Lulu dresses differently than Ruto. Darmani dresses differently than Darunia.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Eralk, if the Ikanians were Hylian parallels, I don't see how all of Ikana would be destroyed: The Ikanian people could still fight, and Ikana doesn't appear to have any Sheikah counterparts, though Ikana fought against the Garo.

The Garo could be the Sheikah counterpart, fueling another difference- while the Hylians and Sheikah united, the Ikana and Garo fought. Had the Ikana and Garo been united, like the Hylians and Sheikah, perhaps they could have had a chance. But they fought to the death.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Zora's Domain is the Zora's home (and seeing as how all water comes from it, it seems sensible to protect it), and there must be a way in other than the waterfall path considering that Ganondorf reached Jabu-Jabu. While King Hyrule trusted Ganondorf, I seriously doubt that he'd teach him the song of the Royal Family. Finally, in the Child Timeline the Zora are conducting a local search to find Princess Ruto. In the Adult Timeline, they are all frozen. They don't have much of an opportunity to get out.

Now granted, while it takes place a hundred years or so after OOT, in TP the Zora actually travel a lot. There are Zora found at Death Mountain in TP, and if they'd go to Death Mountain of all places, I can see them traveling to other places as well (save for Snowpeak and the Gerudo Desert.)

Ganondorf is a powerful dark magician even before he receives the Triforce of Power. His mothers both can fly, and he displays the ability after he receives the Triforce of Power. There's numerous ways for him to get into Zora's Domain. The point is the Zora do not wish for anyone to visit them without the blessing of the Royal Family.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Where are the totemic symbols? In OOT, we only saw enough of them to know that they lived somewhere in the Lost Woods, had businessmen, and regarded Queen Gohma as their actual Queen.

Maybe that could be their religion? They do see Queen Gohma as their Queen and they did say sacred. What they'd pray to, I don't know, but the totem could be about religious beliefs. Regardless, looking at Deku Scrub society in Termina, with palace guards who tell the time (I think), a worried king (as a parallel to the unworried King of Hyrule), and a kidnapped princess, the Terminian Deku Scrubs appear to be more of a parallel than the Hylian Royal Family, with a butler instead of a bodyguard. While Zelda has a history of getting kidnapped as well, I interpret the kidnapped princess scenario as more a glue between the Hylians and Deku Scrubs to point out their connection.

I doubt it. Gohma can't have been in the Great Deku Tree for more than a few months- a year at the most. They're also quite happy to divulge her secrets to save their own skins. I think the Deku in the Great Deku Tree simply followed the highest bidder, being removed from the Lost Woods, their home. We are never shown any totem of the Deku, but they readily supply the information. As they mention it being sacred, their religion is totemic- again, a Native American influence instead of the British/European influence of the Terminan Deku.

Why can't both be parallels? The Deku may be a more slapstick and happier parody of the Hylians, while the Ikana are a cruel revision. In any case, we're digressing- the point is to figure out where the Terminan Hylians come from. I say Ikana.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

You can certainly see it as different, of course, but it's not going to be a perfect parallel- the Deku of Termina's culture is very different from the Hylians of Hyrule.

The trick with comparing Hyrule and Termina is telling what is parallel and what is just plain different.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

Both Flat and Sharp specifically worked for the Ikana Royal Family. The Song of Storms was given a reason- it's Flat's anger and sadness towards his brother's curse.

Flat and Sharp's role is proven, but that still doesn't necessarily mean that Ikana is a parallel of Hyrule.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

The Sheikah have devoted a temple to Hyrule's bloody history, and their numbers dwindled during the prolonged wars- ostensibly, at the beck and call of the Hylians. Hyrule is a bloody place, and if the Hylians came out on top, they didn't do it peacefully. Speaking of it, there's a certain parallel between descriptions of Hyrulian and Ikana history:

But the Shadow Temple was actually a place dedicated to and to contain the evils and darkness (spirits and zombies) of Hyrule. The Kingdom of Ikana was founded on bloodshed and war entirely, while Hyrule appears to have been founded differently. Also, the words from the spirits in the Shadow Temple are only a fraction of the bigger picture--considering that everything is fine by the King of Hyrule's reign, and that Hylians are generally peaceful, the bloody history does not appear to be all there is to Hyrule, whereas Ikana is all about war and violence. Furthermore, the Kingdom of Hyrule was only made about ten years ago. The Shadow Temple could be referring to everything that had happened in the land of Hyrule, and not need be tied to the kingdom.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

That's culture. Lulu dresses differently than Ruto. Darmani dresses differently than Darunia.

Yet between the Zora and Gorons of Hyrule and Termina, there is a connection or binding theme. Ikana, from all that we can grasp of it with everyone dead, has very little in common with Hyrule, and the Composer Brothers, though holding the same occupations, do not need to be tied in with the parallel of a kingdom their parallels worked for. There is also the small detail that King Ikana has red hair, which, though not unlikely, I doubt a royal Hylian would have. Also, though culture is debatable, Ikana Castle looks more like something Aztec than Hylian.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

The Garo could be the Sheikah counterpart, fueling another difference- while the Hylians and Sheikah united, the Ikana and Garo fought. Had the Ikana and Garo been united, like the Hylians and Sheikah, perhaps they could have had a chance. But they fought to the death.

While that seem likely, I fail to see what they would have stood a chance against united. As far as I could understand from the game, Ikana and the Garo had always been mortal enemies, founding their kingdoms on their personal war and dying because of it: they were their only enemies. Also, while the Garo are certainly ninja-like, we have little clothing or culture-wise to use in comparison to the Sheikah. They vanish after being defeated, but that is because their spirits burn away, and the Garo Master, regardless of his bomb, likely does the same.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

Ganondorf is a powerful dark magician even before he receives the Triforce of Power. His mothers both can fly, and he displays the ability after he receives the Triforce of Power. There's numerous ways for him to get into Zora's Domain. The point is the Zora do not wish for anyone to visit them without the blessing of the Royal Family.

While Ganondorf is powerful, if he broke in the Zora would have surely made a comment to King Hyrule, seeing as how they mention that Jabu-Jabu had been looking ill after Ganondorf came. While Ganondorf is powerful, breaking in sounds like it would endanger his plans. While Ganondorf did curse the Gorons as well, the Gorons appeared to have been more prideful and introverted, and thus wouldn't have mentioned it, while I can see the Zora saying something. Also, as I mentioned, at that time the Zora were conducting an in-area search for Princess Ruto, so they couldn't really get out much, and in the Adult Timeline they were all frozen. And finally, while the Zora might not want visitors, that doesn't mean that they don't go out. To bring up TP again (though I admit that things could have changed from Child Timeline OOT to TP) the Zora do get out.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

I doubt it. Gohma can't have been in the Great Deku Tree for more than a few months- a year at the most. They're also quite happy to divulge her secrets to save their own skins. I think the Deku in the Great Deku Tree simply followed the highest bidder, being removed from the Lost Woods, their home. We are never shown any totem of the Deku, but they readily supply the information. As they mention it being sacred, their religion is totemic- again, a Native American influence instead of the British/European influence of the Terminan Deku.

Queen Gohma could have killed the current Deku ruler and frightened the Deku Scrubs into being her subjects. While they are cowardly and traitors, they still refer to Queen Gohma as their ruler. The Great Deku Tree is very close to the Lost Woods, and I doubt that the Deku Scrubs lived in the GDT. As for readily giving information, the only info seen so far is one comment from a Business Scrub. The Deku Scrubs could have a ruler and a religion of sorts, and even with their possible Native American culture, they do still appear to be a parallel with the Deku Scrubs from Termina. I only brought up the possibility of the Hyrule Deku having a culture in response to your claim that they lacked one.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

Why can't both be parallels? The Deku may be a more slapstick and happier parody of the Hylians, while the Ikana are a cruel revision. In any case, we're digressing- the point is to figure out where the Terminan Hylians come from. I say Ikana.

With all due respect, two parallels for the same people just seems too lazy and unoriginal for Nintendo, not to mention the fact that a rather blantant sign of a connection between the Deku Royal Family and the Hylian Royal Family is the kidnapped princess scenario. Heck, you could interpret the Butler to be an Impa parallel.

Wouldn't the "Terminian Hylians" just be Terminians? Also, isn't this discussion supposed to be about the Fierce Deity? Regarding the Fierce Deity, I believe that if he was truly important to Ikana, there would be some mention (if not a major one) about him.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Shadow Temple was actually a place dedicated to and to contain the evils and darkness (spirits and zombies) of Hyrule. The Kingdom of Ikana was founded on bloodshed and war entirely, while Hyrule appears to have been founded differently. Also, the words from the spirits in the Shadow Temple are only a fraction of the bigger picture--considering that everything is fine by the King of Hyrule's reign, and that Hylians are generally peaceful, the bloody history does not appear to be all there is to Hyrule, whereas Ikana is all about war and violence. Furthermore, the Kingdom of Hyrule was only made about ten years ago. The Shadow Temple could be referring to everything that had happened in the land of Hyrule, and not need be tied to the kingdom.

The Sheikah are specifically tied to the Hylians, through their servitude, so I imagine at least some of the Shadow Temple refers to Ikana. The united Kingdom of Hyrule was only made ten years ago- the Kingdom of Hyrule has always been around as long as there's a Hylian monarch.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Yet between the Zora and Gorons of Hyrule and Termina, there is a connection or binding theme. Ikana, from all that we can grasp of it with everyone dead, has very little in common with Hyrule, and the Composer Brothers, though holding the same occupations, do not need to be tied in with the parallel of a kingdom their parallels worked for. There is also the small detail that King Ikana has red hair, which, though not unlikely, I doubt a royal Hylian would have. Also, though culture is debatable, Ikana Castle looks more like something Aztec than Hylian.

Why? Red hair is not unheard of in a Hylian. Anju has red hair. And, as the Deku, Gorons, and Zora show us, culture doesn't have to be the same for a parallel.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

While that seem likely, I fail to see what they would have stood a chance against united. As far as I could understand from the game, Ikana and the Garo had always been mortal enemies, founding their kingdoms on their personal war and dying because of it: they were their only enemies. Also, while the Garo are certainly ninja-like, we have little clothing or culture-wise to use in comparison to the Sheikah. They vanish after being defeated, but that is because their spirits burn away, and the Garo Master, regardless of his bomb, likely does the same.

Had the Ikana and Garo united, there would be no wars in the area, and they may have struck out to conquer- akin to Hyrule. Divided, they are distracted from any other activity other than killing each other. As far as the war the Ikana and the Garo have... it appears the Garo Nation, which the Ikana were already enemies with, finally sent spies to Ikana, which resulted in the final and fatal war. The nations don't seem to have been founded on this, but war between them was common.

They are merely shells that are
empty on the inside. They're the
shells of spies from an enemy
nation sent to investigate Ikana.
They have been unable to forget
their living days. Even now their
spirits--emptiness cloaked in
darkness--continue to spy.

That is the mask of the leader of
the ninjas who once spied on the
hilltop castle with the
blood-stained history.

The Garo are undead, like the Ikana. Again, culture can be different.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

While Ganondorf is powerful, if he broke in the Zora would have surely made a comment to King Hyrule, seeing as how they mention that Jabu-Jabu had been looking ill after Ganondorf came. While Ganondorf is powerful, breaking in sounds like it would endanger his plans. While Ganondorf did curse the Gorons as well, the Gorons appeared to have been more prideful and introverted, and thus wouldn't have mentioned it, while I can see the Zora saying something. Also, as I mentioned, at that time the Zora were conducting an in-area search for Princess Ruto, so they couldn't really get out much, and in the Adult Timeline they were all frozen. And finally, while the Zora might not want visitors, that doesn't mean that they don't go out. To bring up TP again (though I admit that things could have changed from Child Timeline OOT to TP) the Zora do get out.

I am one of the Gorons,
the stone-eating people who live
on Death Mountain.
Look at that huge boulder over
there!
It blocks the entrance to the
Dodongo's Cavern, which was once
a very important place for us
Gorons...
But one day, many Dodongos
suddenly appeared inside the
cavern. It became a very
dangerous place!
On top of that, a Gerudo in black
armor used his magic to seal the
entrance with that boulder!

The Gorons do mention it, and so do the Zora.

But since that stranger, Ganondorf,
came here, Lord Jabu-Jabu has
been a little green around the
gills...

If he got into Zora's Domain, his pledge to the King may have had some weight.

Yes, they do get out, a few centuries later. In Ocarina of Time, they're a bit reclusive. And thus, different from the outgoing Zora of Termina.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Queen Gohma could have killed the current Deku ruler and frightened the Deku Scrubs into being her subjects. While they are cowardly and traitors, they still refer to Queen Gohma as their ruler. The Great Deku Tree is very close to the Lost Woods, and I doubt that the Deku Scrubs lived in the GDT. As for readily giving information, the only info seen so far is one comment from a Business Scrub. The Deku Scrubs could have a ruler and a religion of sorts, and even with their possible Native American culture, they do still appear to be a parallel with the Deku Scrubs from Termina. I only brought up the possibility of the Hyrule Deku having a culture in response to your claim that they lacked one.

But she is killed quite quickly, making her being the center of their religion not so hot. I can't imagine that Gohma, a giant insect, was thinking that far ahead. She was made to kill the Great Deku Tree on the inside.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

With all due respect, two parallels for the same people just seems too lazy and unoriginal for Nintendo, not to mention the fact that a rather blantant sign of a connection between the Deku Royal Family and the Hylian Royal Family is the kidnapped princess scenario. Heck, you could interpret the Butler to be an Impa parallel.

How? Ingo gets three parallels, two of which are quite different from each other. The Zora Royal Family of Hyrule can be interpreted as a parallel of the Hylian Royal Family of Hyrule in Ocarina of Time.

It's not as if the two are the same. With the Deku, it is comedic- the King is fussy and quick to anger and the princess is sassy. Since you think the connection is a kidnapped princess scenario, why can't it be a parallel to Ruto's kidnapping? There's a bit more to it than Zelda's kidnapping- the princess is found in a dungeon, looking for something specific (The Deku Princess and the monkey wish to learn about the poison in Woodfall).

With the Ikana, it's a cruel revision- what if Hyrule lost? There's nothing comedic about it.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Wouldn't the "Terminian Hylians" just be Terminians? Also, isn't this discussion supposed to be about the Fierce Deity? Regarding the Fierce Deity, I believe that if he was truly important to Ikana, there would be some mention (if not a major one) about him.

No, as Hylian is a race, and Termina is a country. In Termina culture, they are called humans- however, this is confusing, as a Human race was introduced in the Oracles, and humans is used as a catch-all term for Gerudo, Sheikah, Hylians, and Humans in Hyrule.

Alright. I do think there are some links to Ikana from the Fierce Deity- via race and a few other hints- but you're right, there's nothing outright.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

The Sheikah are specifically tied to the Hylians, through their servitude, so I imagine at least some of the Shadow Temple refers to Ikana. The united Kingdom of Hyrule was only made ten years ago- the Kingdom of Hyrule has always been around as long as there's a Hylian monarch.

Ikana? Also, the United Kingdom of Hyrule more or less is the Kingdom of Hyrule, and Hyrule also appears to be the name of the entire region. There is also the fact that the Shadow Temple was made to contain the evil and darkness: just because it was there doesn't mean that the Hylians were sick, ruthless people.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

Why? Red hair is not unheard of in a Hylian. Anju has red hair. And, as the Deku, Gorons, and Zora show us, culture doesn't have to be the same for a parallel.

Save for the first and second LoZ, Hylian rulers appear to have blond hair, seeing as how every Zelda has been blond. In Hyrule, the only race red hair seemed to be common in was the Gerudo, and Anju is one of the few exceptions to this rule (Malon's mother is hinted to be a Gerudo.) There's a difference in culture, and then there's just plain different. If we are to use King Hyrule from WW as the generic model for all Kings of Hyrule, then he has more or less nothing in common with Igos du Ikana. I have also brought up how the parallels to the soldiers of Hyrule are in Clock Town, while King Ikana's guards dress differently.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

Had the Ikana and Garo united, there would be no wars in the area, and they may have struck out to conquer- akin to Hyrule. Divided, they are distracted from any other activity other than killing each other. As far as the war the Ikana and the Garo have... it appears the Garo Nation, which the Ikana were already enemies with, finally sent spies to Ikana, which resulted in the final and fatal war. The nations don't seem to have been founded on this, but war between them was common.

The Sheikah appeared to have been a small group of people, while the Garo appear to have been a kingdom of their own. Also, seeing as how the Ikanians and Garo held long, genocidal wars against each other, I doubt the two working together would be for the good of anyone. Both of them sound plain bloodthirsty. Finally, the Kingdom of Ikana, as in your previously-mentioned quote, was founded on war and bloodshed, and with the Garo as their mortal enemies, it only sounds logical to believe that the kingdoms were founded during their wars against each other. We don't know how long the kingdoms lasted or how long ago they were made. That's also an issue: you can argue that time doesn't matter in Termina, but the rise and fall of the Hylian Kingdom and the Ikanian Kingdom appear too far apart in time to be parallels.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

The Garo are undead, like the Ikana. Again, culture can be different.

I think there's a difference in having culture and being zombies.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

The Gorons do mention it, and so do the Zora.

Yet, if Darunia's outburst upon first meeting Link is any indication, the Gorons are prideful people and likely do not want help unless seriously desperate. The Zora do not appear to have any traits like this, and King Zora's comment about Jabu-Jabu seems to say that some time has passed, meaning that if Ganondorf did break in the Zora could have brought word to the King of Hyrule, not to mention that with the river they could bring news much faster than the Gorons could. While the King of Hyrule did trust Ganondorf, I doubt that he trusted him enough to teach him Zelda's Lullaby. In the end, Ganondorf probably was allowed to enter through a less important entrance to meet with the Zora.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

If he got into Zora's Domain, his pledge to the King may have had some weight.

As I said, I doubt the King trusted Ganondorf enough to teach him the song of the Royal Family. Also, Ganondorf affected Jabu-Jabu differently than the Gorons: the King of the Zora only mentioned that Jabu-Jabu wasn't feeling too well. Ganondorf did something major to the Gorons, but their stubbornness and pride probably kept them from really doing anything. If Ganondorf broke in, and Jabu-Jabu was sick after that, they would probably have told the King of Hyrule about it immediately.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

Yes, they do get out, a few centuries later. In Ocarina of Time, they're a bit reclusive. And thus, different from the outgoing Zora of Termina.

As I said, in OOT the Zoras were searching for Princess Ruto and then they were frozen: they didn't really have a chance to do anything. We can't call them reclusive because they were busy and frozen.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

But she is killed quite quickly, making her being the center of their religion not so hot. I can't imagine that Gohma, a giant insect, was thinking that far ahead. She was made to kill the Great Deku Tree on the inside.

We don't know how long the Great Deku Tree was being eaten by Queen Gohma, and Ganondorf might have set Queen Gohma on the Deku Scrubs beforehand just so the Queen could be guarded in case anyone got inside of the Great Deku Tree. While you could argue that this wasn't needed, Ganondorf did put Dodongos in Dodongo's Cavern while sealing the way, and he did put a letter about Ruto being eaten in Lake Hylia. Gohma could have just taken over, penetrated the GDT, and the Dekus could have gone in.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

How? Ingo gets three parallels, two of which are quite different from each other. The Zora Royal Family of Hyrule can be interpreted as a parallel of the Hylian Royal Family of Hyrule in Ocarina of Time.

Those two royal families are in the same game in the same world. Termina is more or less a parallel of Hyrule, and thus the parallel arguement only works for a Hyrule/Termina comparison. Also, with the existence of people such as Kafei, the blacksmith "duo", and Skull Keeta, Termina appears to have some originality to it.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

It's not as if the two are the same. With the Deku, it is comedic- the King is fussy and quick to anger and the princess is sassy. Since you think the connection is a kidnapped princess scenario, why can't it be a parallel to Ruto's kidnapping? There's a bit more to it than Zelda's kidnapping- the princess is found in a dungeon, looking for something specific (The Deku Princess and the monkey wish to learn about the poison in Woodfall).

The Deku Royal Family is more fleshed out than the Zora Royal Family, there is the Butler, who can be seen as an Impa figure, there are the Deku guards (that tell time like the Hylian guards), and the parallel is that the Deku King actually cares about his kingdom's problems and listens to his daughter, while the King of Hyrule was blind to Ganondorf and disreguarded Zelda's words. As a small note, the Kingdom of Hyrule wasn't the only kingdom in Hyrule, and they all fought in the Fierce War, so you could argue that anyone is a parallel of anyone.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

With the Ikana, it's a cruel revision- what if Hyrule lost? There's nothing comedic about it.

Ikana appears to have more than the outcome of a war separating them from Hyrule, and they didn't lose against the Gorons or Termina's Ganon--they fought the Garo from the beginning, and they died with the Garo.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

No, as Hylian is a race, and Termina is a country. In Termina culture, they are called humans- however, this is confusing, as a Human race was introduced in the Oracles, and humans is used as a catch-all term for Gerudo, Sheikah, Hylians, and Humans in Hyrule.

Wrong. Hylians are only a race in Hyrule, presumably named after the land and being the chosen ones of the Goddesses. In Termina, they'd be Terminians, and seeing as how Termina was made on accident, I doubt that any parallel of the Hylians would wind up like the Hylians, seeing as how they wouldn't be the chosen people of the Goddesses. Also, they are all human, so counting human as its own branch just seems silly.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

Alright. I do think there are some links to Ikana from the Fierce Deity- via race and a few other hints- but you're right, there's nothing outright.

I really don't see a connection at all other than fitting the cardinal rose mask trend. Whatever the reason, the Fierce Deity appears to have little to do with anything, and seeing as how Nintendo was actually planning for the FDM to be an Adult Link mask at first, the FD might not really have any importance.


This debate could go on, but I don't really have any more interest in it, and I personally want to give other people a chance to expand their ideas.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Wrong. Hylians are only a race in Hyrule, presumably named after the land and being the chosen ones of the Goddesses. In Termina, they'd be Terminians, and seeing as how Termina was made on accident, I doubt that any parallel of the Hylians would wind up like the Hylians, seeing as how they wouldn't be the chosen people of the Goddesses. Also, they are all human, so counting human as its own branch just seems silly.

It's kind of a complecated race dynamic in Hyrule, but maybe I can help explain? The difference between Hylians and regular humans is that Hylians have pointed ears. It's said that they're for hearing the messages of the Godesses, because the Hylians are supposed to be the closest race to them (not counting the Oocca). Then there are round-eared humans, and they are divided into Gerudos and Shiekah, which each have their own physical traits, but then round-eared humans that don't fit into the Gerudos or Shiekah are just called Humans. And both round-eared humans and Hylians are found in Termina. They are all Terminian in nationality, but only the ones with pointed ears are Hylian in race.

I understand the concept, but it just seems silly. Come on, couldn't you at least call the people with round ears the normal folk or name them after the place they live in? It just sticks out like a sore thumb and looks like the poster considers Hylians, Sheikah, Gerudo, and normal humans as different species, and I've sadly seen many people who actually think that.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

I understand the concept, but it just seems silly. Come on, couldn't you at least call the people with round ears the normal folk or name them after the place they live in? It just sticks out like a sore thumb and looks like the poster considers Hylians, Sheikah, Gerudo, and normal humans as different species, and I've sadly seen many people who actually think that.

Well, it's obvious that they're not different species, anyone who thinks that needs to learn som biology. But the game hasn't really given a specific name to non-Hylian, non-Gerudo, non-Shiekah humans; except for just humans. And giving them an actual name would be nice, but no one's probably going to be able to get the whole Zelda fanbase to start calling them something different unless it actually enters into Zelda canon in a future game...

Exactly. They're never called humans specifically in the games, but have ended up Humans in fandom because they seem to be the most "basic" form of the human races- rounded ears, no magic, pale. This is why I capitalize Humans to differentiate between Humans, the race, and humans, the species.

Like I said, I understand why people do so, I just think it looks very weird. Round-ears or misc. would be a better term.

And from the looks of it, Hylians aren't exactly spell-casters either, considering that only a select few use magic, and they tend to be of either royal/special blood or obtain it from a higher power.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Like I said, I understand why people do so, I just think it looks very weird. Round-ears or misc. would be a better term.

And from the looks of it, Hylians aren't exactly spell-casters either, considering that only a select few use magic, and they tend to be of either royal/special blood or obtain it from a higher power.

The Hylians are known for it, and it is usually stressed.

From the A Link to the Past manual:

Nintendo of America translation:

With their magic infused blood, the Hylian people were endowed with psychic powers and skill in wizardry.

Original Japanese (of a different paragraph):

それゆえ、高い耳を持ち、感覚に優れ、魔法を使いました。

Romaji (of above):

soreyue, takai mimi o mochi, kankaku ni sugure, mahou o tsukaima****a.

Literal translation (of above):

For that reason they were in possession of tall ears, excelled senses, and the use of magic/sorcery.

From Zelda.com:

Hylians are an elf-like race of people who first established an ordered civilization in Hyrule. Famous Hylians include Princess Zelda and Link. The Hylians' long, sculpted ears enable them to hear special messages. As the chosen people, they are also given unique psychic and magical abilities.

I think it relates to the ability to perform magic. While only three Gerudo out of the entire history of Hyrule can do magic, it's possible. While only Hylian royals (and the occasional backwaters/backwoods kid ) can do magic, it's possible. The Sheikah are actually never shown doing magic, but they're so close biologically to the Hylians, it appears possible. Humans have never displayed magical ability.

Originally Posted by Eralk Fang

The Hylians are known for it, and it is usually stressed.
I think it relates to the ability to perform magic. While only three Gerudo out of the entire history of Hyrule can do magic, it's possible. While only Hylian royals (and the occasional backwaters/backwoods kid ) can do magic, it's possible. The Sheikah are actually never shown doing magic, but they're so close biologically to the Hylians, it appears possible. Humans have never displayed magical ability.

They're all human, and if the Gerudo, people struggling to live in a harsh desert, can use magic, then the non-affiliated humans could probably do it if they tried. I'm just saying that, regardless of manuals and such, the Hylians, save for the ones chosen by destiny, are more or less like everyone else minus the pointed ears. Even the Hero of Time needed to learn magic from the Great Fairy of Death Mountain. As far as I know, the only Link who had a magic meter from the start was the ALTTP Link, and that's because he was of the special bloodline of the Hylian Knights.

^very nice all the crap on this page but what has this to do with the fierce deity mask? if this is part of a theory? then well....damn.

Masterhuman, it really doesn't matter. Sooner or later they'll get back to the Fierce Diety mask, which is what they came from.

Originally Posted by Venomous-Ninja

Yes, but it actually looks like Link! Looks! Did anything else look like Link? No! This guy actually looks like Link!

Sry if someone i post was already said, but i kinda skipped through thread
Because its demon possesing Link.
As someone said, its possible that Link is actually so brave and powerful Hylian, that can whitstand influence of demon (skull kids arent too powerful... thats why majora had no problem controling him), even though its demon GOD. Fierce Deity can actually be GOD of demons. The ONE demon. Look how easily we can beat another demon, Majora, as FD Link. This can mean that FD is god-like creature, most powerful of demons.
This can be also the fallen god. Like satan in bible, Onikami can be god that betrayed other gods and created demons (ganon, majora, vaati, etc.).
It can also be creation of gods that got out of their control, and started spreading evil.
We may never know... unless Nintendo makes sequel (prequel?) to MM, again in land of Termina, but this time answering more questions about origins of two evil masks

Atcually, it's not a demon possesing Link, there's alot of proof, but 'm to lazy to state it.

Originally Posted by Venomous-Ninja

Atcually, it's not a demon possesing Link, there's alot of proof, but 'm to lazy to state it.

Well, he isnt possesed, because he fights with it.
FD doesnt look like Link, just like Majora doesnt look like Skull Kid (We see true form of majora...).
Link, ugh, absorbs? the powers of the mask. He is keeping himself sane, while still being able to use power of the mask, he merges with it.
Majora took total control of SK, while Link merged with FD, while still keeping himself sane... thats why FDLink has features both of Link and FD... we never see actual look of FD, nor we propably see full power of it (which must be insane).
There are too many mysteries surrounding FD origins to explain without creating stuff...