Which side of the split should TMC go on?

I am pretty sure that it should not be placed before OoT, due to problems with its ancient kingdom contradicting the newly formed kingdom, but this leaves us the question of which side we should place TMC (and FS/FSA, though not necessarily directly).

I am leaning towards it going on the child timeline since it seems to lead into ALttP. ALttP goes on the child timeline mostly due to its placement of the Master Sword aligning with TP, and due to ambiguities about the fate of the Triforce at the end of TP.

The arguments for TMC going after WW on the adult timeline strike me as flimsy. For instance, calling Hylians humans is a common practice of other species, as evidenced by Midna and the Picori. Unless the "humans" said this to one another, I am not buying it. Also, the backdrop seen in the Wind Tribe's place is also not convincing since an idea of how far up these clouds are is not forthcoming. Plus, we have a parallel in TP, where we can see a lot of blue down below as well.

It's been a while since I've seen a good timeline debate, so I thought this should get things going. I am not going to be standing for this too steadfastly, since I would like to see the evidence for both sides presented.
Of course, it would be lovely if people did not feel the need to quote the entirety of the post they are replying to, and possibly not even quote them if at all possible, to avoid spamming and to help me out (ADHD). Thank you for your time.

Originally Posted by Hurripen

I am leaning towards it going on the child timeline since it seems to lead into ALttP. ALttP goes on the child timeline mostly due to its placement of the Master Sword aligning with TP, and due to ambiguities about the fate of the Triforce at the end of TP.

The Triforce is the major flaw with ALttP being on the child timeline, since we have no explanation as to how it went from seperated at the end of TP to whole in ALttP. Placing ALttP on the adult timeline after TWW removes this major flaw.

Originally Posted by Hurripen

The arguments for TMC going after WW on the adult timeline strike me as flimsy.

Flimsy maybe, but they are far stronger than any arguement for a pre-OoT or child timeline placement for TMC, as the former has outdated developer statements and personal interpretations supporting it, and the latter has nothing supporting it, at least not that I know of.

Many things align up really well with the post-TWW placement of TMC, such as the Gorons being merchants and few in number, as well as not living on a mountain, just like in TWW, and TMC showing the first appearance of land-crawling Octoroks, as TWW is the last game to feature water-dwelling Octoroks. Lots of things like this are what makes the TWW/PH - TMC order the most probable. Although that may sound daft considering the evidence isn't exactly big ground-breaking stuff, with a lack of big ground-breaking evidence, it's all we have.

Ok, the problem I have with it going in the Child line is, as you say the FS games are likely linked to Alttp, which is linked to LoZ and AoL, AoL has the names of the sages from OoT Adult story as the town names placing it in the Adult line. That isn't damning evidence at all, but it was the first thing that sprung to mind.

At this point in time, I feel that The Minish Cap follows The Wind Waker, due to the Triumph Forks reference, the presence of islands when you're in the sky, and, though not as strong a reason, similar art style.

The Minish Cap has absolutely no references to Twilight Princess, and vice-versa, yet is full of references to The Wind Waker. Gee, I wonder where I'm going to put it? ;p

Originally Posted by Sentient

The Triforce is the major flaw with ALttP being on the child timeline, since we have no explanation as to how it went from separated at the end of TP to whole in ALttP. Placing ALttP on the adult timeline after TWW removes this major flaw.

You have a point here.

Many things align up really well with the post-TWW placement of TMC, such as the Gorons being merchants and few in number, as well as not living on a mountain, just like in TWW, and TMC showing the first appearance of land-crawling Octoroks, as TWW is the last game to feature water-dwelling Octoroks. Lots of things like this are what makes the TWW/PH - TMC order the most probable.

I like this idea about the Gorons: however, their home is not seen in WW, so the "not living on a mountain" is up for debate. Plus, they were wandering Gorons on business, and those islands they were on did not even have houses. The Octorok evolution depends on assuming that all the 2-D games go after WW, which makes it circular. Do you have anything else to add or ways to defend your statements?

Originally Posted by Darknut King

Ok, the problem I have with it going in the Child line is, as you say the FS games are likely linked to Alttp, which is linked to LoZ and AoL, AoL has the names of the sages from OoT Adult story as the town names placing it in the Adult line.

Well, DK, I agree that LoZ/AoL should go on the Adult line, even though many people think that the "sage towns" are a "cameo" (which I think should be used more sparingly than it is:mad. However, the link between the two games requires the original game box as sole evidence. I am pretty certain that OoT retconned this a bit, what with the "whole Triforce in Sacred Realm" and the Split.

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

At this point in time, I feel that The Minish Cap follows The Wind Waker, due to the Triumph Forks reference, the presence of islands when you're in the sky, and, though not as strong a reason, similar art style.

I will get to combating that TphFks ref soon as I get access to WW, but your other point about islands is a good one.

Also, Sentient, I think that TP does have a connection to TMC, since it shows Zelda giving something up to Midna, leaving her empty body for Ganondorf. This strikes me as referring to the Light Force. Of course, that one is a bit flimsy and TF/LF debates spring from things like this, so I'll leave it alone. Also, there were a couple WW refs in TP as well, yet this was not considered evidence for it being placed after WW, or even before.

Originally Posted by HurriPen

I like this idea about the Gorons: however, their home is not seen in WW, so the "not living on a mountain" is up for debate.

Their home is not seen because they have none.

Also, Sentient, I think that TP does have a connection to TMC, since it shows Zelda giving something up to Midna, leaving her empty body for Ganondorf. This strikes me as referring to the Light Force.

Of course, we do not know the origins of the Light Force, or how the Minish have it prior to TMC (Did they make it? Did they find it? Were they given it? etc. etc.). Taking the idea into account that the Light Force may just be the spiritual power of Hyrule's princess, this power could have been held long before TMC, interrupted by the flood (Tetra has no outstanding magical abilities, and lacks the power to sense approaching evil), and returned to the hero/princess by the Minish.

The Gorons are homeless? Where did you learn that? There is no in-game evidence for this assumption as far as I know. The game even says that no one knows where they come from or where they are going, after calling them traveling merchants seeking to set up their own shop. This Goron trio cannot be said to represent the race as a whole.

Originally Posted by HurriPen

The Octorok evolution depends on assuming that all the 2-D games go after WW, which makes it circular. Do you have anything else to add or ways to defend your statements?

It depends on knowing how evolution works. When something evolves to adapt to a new habitat, even if it goes back to its previous habitat and evolves again, it won't evolve into the form it had prior to changing habitats, as that's devolution, not evolution.

Originally Posted by HurriPen

I will get to combating that TphFks ref soon as I get access to WW, but your other point about islands is a good one.

You thought it was a bad point earlier:

"Also, the backdrop seen in the Wind Tribe's place is also not convincing since an idea of how far up these clouds are is not forthcoming. ~ HurriPen

=/

Sentient, that idea you have about devolution is not supported in Zelda or the real world. It's related to the fallacy of progress that runs in society. Check the wikipedia article on biological devolution for more.

Also, I am sorry about my irrational support of the backdrop. I am still against it, but I can't quite recall what it looked like very well: could you post a pic of it here for convenience of discussion? Thanks.

Originally Posted by HurriPen

Sentient, that idea you have about devolution is not supported in Zelda or the real world. It's related to the fallacy of progress that runs in society. Check the wikipedia article on biological devolution for more.

Has there ever been an organism on this planet that has regressed back to one of its previous forms?

Originally Posted by HurriPen

Also, I am sorry about my irrational support of the backdrop. I am still against it, but I can't quite recall what it looked like very well: could you post a pic of it here for convenience of discussion? Thanks.

Returning to previous forms is not quite impossible, seeing as fluctuations in genetics could be blamed. As an example, the whale is thought to have returned to the ocean after its initial emergence. So the evolution argument does not hold water here.

Speaking of water, that pic illustrates a problem I have with the backdrop: none of those islands appear to be Hyrule. In fact, I do not think that we have the right to assume that there were not oceans present in other games in the child timeline: claiming that oceans only came to Hyrule through the Flood is not very supportable, but tends towards fanfic. We do not even know where Hyrule is in relation to this backdrop, so we cannot even determine if it is land-locked or not.

Just to make a valid point on this debate, the backdrop that has been shown scrolls across the screen; it doesn't remain in one place to show any definite location.

If an argument has to be made, I think the fact that islands exist, not the shape or location of the islands, is what matters.

I wouldn't say that the whole Octorok thing is a compelling argument since it's just as reasonable to say that they've both always existed but we don't always see both in a game. I mean, Oracle of Ages made it clear that there are different races of Zora, even though that's the only game in which we see both. Similarly, the different Hylian languages may always have coexisted but in certain games we only see one. As for the Gorons, well if Gorons that have similar habits are something that means two games are subsequent, then OoA must directly follow or precede OoT since both feature the same character (Lord Jabu-Jabu).

Originally Posted by HurriPen

Returning to previous forms is not quite impossible, seeing as fluctuations in genetics could be blamed. As an example, the whale is thought to have returned to the ocean after its initial emergence. So the evolution argument does not hold water here.

The whale may have returned to the ocean after leaving it, but it it retake the form it had when first in the ocean? I doubt it.

Originally Posted by HurriPen

Speaking of water, that pic illustrates a pro