Termina: Alternate Dimension or Parallel Universe?

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

Uncle Meat, in light of the fact that everyone has pretty much shunned the possibility of converging timelines, your diagram is basically impossible.

Read the description below the diagram. The timelines do not converge. I am merely trying to show that both Hyrule and Termina are parts of the same universe.

The first split is only showing that there are (in this example) two dimentions. The second split is the actual splitting in two timelines. The merging in the end is just reversing the first split.

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

HurriPen, sorry I couldn't respond to you before, but you are continuing to contradict yourself. You're saying that time travel is the only reason why a split is caused, and that even if Link did everything exactly the same in both timelines, there would be two identical timelines. But you're missing something very obvious. Time travel is the difference that causes the split. In one timeline, there's time travel; in another, there isn't. Therefore, the timelines aren't the same. The difference causes the split.

That is exactly what I was trying to say: time-travel is the cause of the split, not the different events that follow in the individual timelines! I think we experienced a misunderstanding somewhere along the line : I thought you were forgetting the primacy of time-travel in the split's creation. However, I am still worried that, when it comes to comparing Termina to Hyrule, you are using a different definition of time by trying to use the events in the universes as evidence.

Originally Posted by Uncle Meat

Read the description below the diagram. The timelines do not converge. I am merely trying to show that both Hyrule and Termina are parts of the same universe.

But how are they parts of the same universe if they have mirrored versions of people? They would be unique.

The first split is only showing that there are (in this example) two dimentions. The second split is the actual splitting in two timelines. The merging in the end is just reversing the first split.

How is merging dimensions any different than merging timelines? It still seems impossible.

HurriPen, all I'm saying is that time is the same across the multiverse. That's why one universe isn't affected by a split in another, because ultimately, all the same points in time in any universe are occurring at the same time. Time is physical and objective, that's what I'm saying.

Hmmm I brought this up in another thread but oddly enough it was ignored... alas... that does happen sometimes in a heated debate.

Do we all agree that when you go three days back in time in Termina, that Hyrule also went back in time three days? Does Hyrule experience the same three days over and over without knowing it until Link saves the land and heads off on another adventure?

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

HurriPen, all I'm saying is that time is the same across the multiverse. That's why one universe isn't affected by a split in another, because ultimately, all the same points in time in any universe are occurring at the same time. Time is physical and objective, that's what I'm saying.

Let me see if I have this right. You are saying that there are two dimensions of time. One is the one that we normally experience: "humdrum time". The other is one that allows there to be another timeline experience time at the same rate parallel to you: "dreamtime". You are postulating that Termina's humdrum time is separate from Hyrule's humdrum time. If this is true, then the trip to Termina is not merely through space, but through dreamtime as well.

Okay then, I guess that Termina as an "alternate dimension" is what you were going for, except that it differs not only through a spatial difference, but a dreamtemporal difference as well.

Originally Posted by Cloaked Mystery

Hmmm I brought this up in another thread but oddly enough it was ignored... alas... that does happen sometimes in a heated debate.

Do we all agree that when you go three days back in time in Termina, that Hyrule also went back in time three days? Does Hyrule experience the same three days over and over without knowing it until Link saves the land and heads off on another adventure?

Well, thats partly what this debate is about as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

But how are they parts of the same universe if they have mirrored versions of people? They would be unique.

Because the programmers got lazy? And what does that have to do with them being in the same universe?

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

How is merging dimensions any different than merging timelines? It still seems impossible.

They don't merge, nor do they split! The green line is the universe. Okay? It is "openned up" to a yellow and a blue line, so that we can see that it consists of two parallel worlds: Hyrule and Termina.

Originally Posted by HurriPen

That is exactly what I was trying to say: time-travel is the cause of the split, not the different events that follow in the individual timelines!

Hardly.

Alternate histories require three things:
1) a point of change
2) an actual change
3) actual ramifications arising from that change

Without a single differing event, we have no split, because we have no change. Why do we know that Link returning to the past created a split at all? Because things happened differently.

Literally because Link closes the Door of Time and sets into motion events that will get Ganondorf executed, an alternate history is created. Had nothing changed, there would be no difference in the timeline, and therefore, no split.

I know that for practical purposes, the timelines must differ: however, in the name of technicalities, the timeline only splits due to time-travel. That is the primary cause. This helps along the idea that a lack of events in common is not substantive proof that they do not share the same time and therefore split with each other. There may be no practical difference at first, but the devil is in the details.

My interpretation:

|----------------
Hyrule
|----------------

Termina---------------------

Originally Posted by HurriPen

Let me see if I have this right. You are saying that there are two dimensions of time. One is the one that we normally experience: "humdrum time". The other is one that allows there to be another timeline experience time at the same rate parallel to you: "dreamtime". You are postulating that Termina's humdrum time is separate from Hyrule's humdrum time. If this is true, then the trip to Termina is not merely through space, but through dreamtime as well.

Okay then, I guess that Termina as an "alternate dimension" is what you were going for, except that it differs not only through a spatial difference, but a dreamtemporal difference as well.

You're getting there, but that's not exactly what I'm saying. Let me try to explain this better. Let's say that there isn't a universe, but a multiverse, with infinite universes comprising it. The multiverse was created at one time, so all of the universes were created at the same time as well. Therefore, since they were all created at the same time, time moves at the same rate within all of them. Therefore, Year 0 in Hyrule is happening at the same time as Year 0 in Termina. Another way to think of it would be to think that there's on great physical reality, comprised of other tiny realities relegated to their corners of existence, all happening at the same time. I don't see why you're bringing "dreamtime" into this. Therefore, the trip to Termina would be a trip through inter-universal space, rather than intra-universal space, as we do with our space shuttles and such.

Originally Posted by Uncle Meat

Because the programmers got lazy? And what does that have to do with them being in the same universe?

As I've said in other threads, a general rule of thumb with debating with me is understanding that if you use out-of-universe explanations, it will only weaken your point in my eyes. What we see in the games is what we're stuck with, and we have to come up with an explanation for that. It's a slippery slope otherwise. You can say anything happened because developers got lazy and we'll never make any progress. As for the second part, do you think there's anyone else who's an exact genetic model of you somewhere in the universe? If no, then that's what I'm getting at.

They don't merge, nor do they split! The green line is the universe. Okay? It is "openned up" to a yellow and a blue line, so that we can see that it consists of two parallel worlds: Hyrule and Termina.

As I said above, if they have parallel people, how can they not be parallel universes? How could parallel worlds exist in the same universe?

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

My interpretation:

|----------------
Hyrule-----|
|----------------

Termina---------------------

This is basically an extremely simplified version of what I'm saying.

Time travel is the cause of the change; the change is the cause of the split. If there was no change, it would simply be another case of time travel, returning to an earlier point in history. You could argue that the simple fact that Link was there was a change, and that would be acceptable, but the timeline did not split because he traveled back in time. It split because something in the past was changed as a result.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Time travel is the cause of the change; the change is the cause of the split. If there was no change, it would simply be another case of time travel, returning to an earlier point in history. You could argue that the simple fact that Link was there was a change, and that would be acceptable, but the timeline did not split because he traveled back in time. It split because something in the past was changed as a result.

Precisely. Hit the nail on the head.

This is basically an extremely simplified version of what I'm saying.

And my version to what you both are saying is posted on the first page.

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

The multiverse was created at one time, so all of the universes were created at the same time as well. Therefore, since they were all created at the same time, time moves at the same rate within all of them. Therefore, Year 0 in Hyrule is happening at the same time as Year 0 in Termina. Another way to think of it would be to think that there's one great physical reality, comprised of other tiny realities relegated to their corners of existence, all happening at the same time. I don't see why you're bringing "dreamtime" into this.

The reason I am bringing up dreamtime is to elucidate what you mean in strictly physical terms. You need a second dimension of time for this theory to work out. Otherwise, a split in Hyrule would affect Termina (one dimension of time means a universal time that is unified). The use of poetic language and metaphors on your part seem to me to obfuscate the meat of what you are saying. By analyzing it in such a matter, it becomes clear what exactly we are talking about.

Therefore, the trip to Termina would be a trip through inter-universal space, rather than intra-universal space, as we do with our space shuttles and such.

In order for this to work, your "inter-universal space" must contain the second dimension of time, in order for there to be inter-timeline travel.

Originally Posted by HurriPen

The reason I am bringing up dreamtime is to elucidate what you mean in strictly physical terms. You need a second dimension of time for this theory to work out. Otherwise, a split in Hyrule would affect Termina (one dimension of time means a universal time that is unified). The use of poetic language and metaphors on your part seem to me to obfuscate the meat of what you are saying. By analyzing it in such a matter, it becomes clear what exactly we are talking about.

Yes, time itself is one dimension, and time is unified across all of existence. However, universes and their timelines are not. That's what I'm arguing. I don't really see why there's a need for a second temporal dimension.

In order for this to work, your "inter-universal space" must contain the second dimension of time, in order for there to be inter-timeline travel.

Why? Link is travelling through space to get to another timeline. He's not travelling through time. Or if he is, I don't see why it requires another temporal dimension. If we can move up, down, forward, backward, and side-to-side in space, why can't we do the same in time?

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

Yes, time itself is one dimension, and time is unified across all of existence. However, universes and their timelines are not. That's what I'm arguing. I don't really see why there's a need for a second temporal dimension.

Why? Link is travelling through space to get to another timeline. He's not travelling through time. Or if he is, I don't see why it requires another temporal dimension. If we can move up, down, forward, backward, and side-to-side in space, why can't we do the same in time?

The reason why we can move like that in space is because there are three spatial dimensions that we have access to. One dimension of time means we have two directions to go in: back and forth. For the most part, though, we move forward, unless we put the Master Sword back in its pedestal. To move to another timeline cannot be done by moving through space, no matter how many dimensions you add. A single dimension of time common to all universes is fine, but if there is not a second temporal dimension, then they all exist in the same timeline, and split together.

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

As I've said in other threads, a general rule of thumb with debating with me is understanding that if you use out-of-universe explanations, it will only weaken your point in my eyes. What we see in the games is what we're stuck with, and we have to come up with an explanation for that. It's a slippery slope otherwise. You can say anything happened because developers got lazy and we'll never make any progress. As for the second part, do you think there's anyone else who's an exact genetic model of you somewhere in the universe? If no, then that's what I'm getting at.

I have come to the conclusion that a timeline can not be constructed based purely on canon. Timetravelling in Zelda is a gameplay element that does not follow the logic of a real world. Therefor I like to take the human element into consideration.

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

As I said above, if they have parallel people, how can they not be parallel universes? How could parallel worlds exist in the same universe?

Apparantly, thanks to my limited knowledge of sci-fi terms in the english language, I have been using the wrong terms all along. What I meant to say is that these parallel worlds exist as parts of the same physical multiverse (not universe) which shares a common flow of time. The split then happens simultaneously in all worlds. I hope you get me now. Sorry for all this confusion.

Originally Posted by Ogmios22188

I don't really see why there's a need for a second temporal dimension.

Nope. Instead you have an infinite number of them.

The underlying tenet is that History is not a physical dimension; it is the Reality of all of them. Altering the Universal History would then create an alternate physical Reality encompassing all Physical Worlds, all of which are exclusive to each History.

Guys, you cannot *prove* anything through dimensional theory. In cosmology, we employ the idea of "dimensions" the way we employ the idea of "pragraphs" in english or "graphs" in math. They are tools by which we can better communicate our ideas and observations, and, in that capacity, have infinite application. They do not better suit any one argument than any other (unless an argument is inherintly non-sensical, which neither of these are).

Purely considerin the idea of dimensions, both Lex and Osmios have a case. Go back to your in-universe observations (such as those Lex included in yesterday's article) and you'll have a real discussion on your hands.

Originally Posted by Uncle Meat

Apparantly, thanks to my limited knowledge of sci-fi terms in the english language, I have been using the wrong terms all along. What I meant to say is that these parallel worlds exist as parts of the same physical multiverse (not universe) which shares a common flow of time. The split then happens simultaneously in all worlds. I hope you get me now. Sorry for all this confusion.

I see what you're saying now. But what I'm arguing is that even though there is one multiverse with one flow of time, each universe has a separate history and timeline. Therefore, since the timelines and histories are separate, a split in one wouldn't mean a split in others, seeing as how they're separated.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Nope. Instead you have an infinite number of them.

Yes, I have an infinite number of timelines, but I don't have an infinite number of time dimensions. Time is a singular thing, is what I'm arguing.

The underlying tenet is that History is not a physical dimension; it is the Reality of all of them. Altering the Universal History would then create an alternate physical Reality encompassing all Physical Worlds, all of which are exclusive to each History.

I hope we're not misunderstanding, but I'm just gonna reiterate my point. First off, I'm saying there isn't simply a universe, but a multiverse, and though there is one Time and one point from which it began, there are separate timelines and histories for each universe. Since these universes and timelines are separated, a split in one universe's timeline will not affect another universe's timeline. Only the universe in which Hyrule exists is important to its history, that's why when the split in the timeline occurs due to the changes made to its history, it creates two timelines in two universes, though they were once one. However, since this has nothing to do with Termina, Termina's timeline is unaffected by this.