A Helpful Guide to Understanding Others' Timelines, and Revealing Yours.

Originally Posted by Duoae

But in answer to Lex. The text clearly states that whoever wields the trident becomes the King of Darkness. Ganondorf becomes Ganon in the role of ancient demon reborn. Perhaps Ganondorf himself is not the demon reborn but the entity, Ganon...

But was that inscription directed at anyone who just waltzed into the Pyramid and picked up the Tridnet? Or was it a prophecy that Ganondorf would find it and release the ancient demon Ganon within him by using the Trident's power? Since Ganon is the King of Darkness, I'm more inclined to believe that the inscription was a prophecy. Also, Ganon IS the ancient demon reborn, since Ganon is a demon, and Ganondorf is not.

Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21

Although admittedly, the "ancient demon reborn" could be something other than Ganon, this is very unlikely, and usually when something is "reborn", it is the same thing.

This is not very unlikely. In my mind, it plays out perfectly to be referring back to an actual demon that was reborn within the gerudo, possibly through the Trident.

Originally Posted by Raian

The "ancient demon reborn" is the King of Darkness. Only Ganon is the true King of Darkness, in any incarnation.

Maybe he was the only King of Darkness, but he first got that title through the Trident. Possibly, he was the only man to ever weild that Trident, or, perhaps an ancient demon weilded that Trident. No one really knows, but it makes so much sense to me that the "Ancient Demon" title and the "King of Darkness" title were both earned through the Trident rather than Ganon's ancestors.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Ganon is the King of Darkness.
The ancient demon reborn is the King of Darkness.
The ancient demon reborn is Ganon.

The proposed scenario has Ganon being reborn before ever appearing.

The ancient demon is reborn to be Ganon, the ancient demon wasn't necessarily Ganon reborn. Otherwise, it would say the ancient demon Ganon is reborn, which it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Raian

FSA never actually says that the ancient demon reborn is "within" the trident. In my opinion, Ganondorf the Gerudo thief was the reincarnated demon and the Trident was placed by servants of darkness long ago, so that Ganondorf could take it and ruin the world.

No, but the King of Darkness definitely came from within the Trident, so why can't the ancient demon?

Edit:

Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21

But was that inscription directed at anyone who just waltzed into the Pyramid and picked up the Tridnet? Or was it a prophecy that Ganondorf would find it and release the ancient demon Ganon within him by using the Trident's power? Since Ganon is the King of Darkness, I'm more inclined to believe that the inscription was a prophecy. Also, Ganon IS the ancient demon reborn, since Ganon is a demon, and Ganondorf is not.

Wasn't the name "Mandrag Ganon" used regularly by the gerudo describing Ganondorf before he touched the ToP? And even if it wasn't, where did Ganondorf first obtain the image of a giant pig-like monster? Doesn't it make sense that the demon image that we know as Ganon come from some outside source? I don't know... like... and ancient demon or something?

Originally Posted by Froboy

No, but the King of Darkness definitely came from within the Trident, so why can't the ancient demon?

The King of Darkness didn't definitely come from within the Trident. If you read the inscription, you can see the entire script is addressing the reader, which tells us that Ganondorf is the "Evil Spirit of the Trident" and the "King of Darkness". It's a prophecy.

Ganondorf was once human, but is now the king of darkness, ancient demon reborn.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Ganondorf was once human, but is now the king of darkness, ancient demon reborn.

Naturally the King of Darkness needs power to claim the title, which is where the Trident comes into play. He was once human but has shown himself to be the King of Darkness.

Compare the situation with OoT. Ganondorf was human in that game, yet he took power to become the King of Darkness.

Not the same power.

Ganon, in that game, was "born" of the Triforce. He becomes the King of Evil.
It is not something that he is already, plus power with which to proclaim the title; it is a title that itself is obtained through said power.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Ganon, in that game, was "born" of the Triforce. He becomes the King of Evil.

Ganondorf's power never changed when he took the Triforce. He wielded the power of Darkness before and after taking the Triforce of Power. His existence as the incarnation of darkness was born when his magic was empowered by the ToP, but his spirit was that of the King of Darkness before acquiring such power.

Originally Posted by Raian

The King of Darkness didn't definitely come from within the Trident. If you read the inscription, you can see the entire script is addressing the reader, which tells us that Ganondorf is the "Evil Spirit of the Trident" and the "King of Darkness". It's a prophecy.

So are you saying that the Dark Tribe that was sealed long ago was led by Ganon himself, who created a Trident to give... back to Ganon? Or are you saying that Ganondorf's pig-image has absolutely nothing to do with the Trident? I know there are some alternatives, but I'm going through them in my head and none of them make as much sense as this one.

One more thing that I was thinking about. Has anyone noticed how the members of the Dark Tribe that you meet within FSA's Dark World almost worship Vaati, and thank you immensly that you set him free, yet, while Ganon reigns free, they make no notice of him, where as in your theories they should be worshipping him instead? In fact, they made mention of Dark Link bothering them too just as the people from the light world mentioned him. If Dark Link, a creation of Ganon, was antagonizing the Dark Tribe as well, why would the Dark Tribe be so attached to Ganon by supporting him with their power (or giving him back his own power or whatever)?

Edit: Sorry, I had a messed up sentence in there that I corrected.

Hmmm. I'm wondering if perhaps the name "Ganon" is similar to the "devil" in christian mythology. ie. Anyone who is or seems to be the ultimate evil is called Ganon? It just happens that the only two humans (one if you are like me) we've seen become "a Ganon" are called Ganondorf...

Originally Posted by Duoae

Hmmm. I'm wondering if perhaps the name "Ganon" is similar to the "devil" in christian mythology. ie. Anyone who is or seems to be the ultimate evil is called Ganon? It just happens that the only two humans (one if you are like me) we've seen become "a Ganon" are called Ganondorf...

Ganon is the Hyrulian equivalent of Satan. The conquest of Darkness has been comparable in spirit with the Apocalypse, and only Ganon can bring about that conquest.

Originally Posted by Raian

his spirit was that of the King of Darkness before acquiring such power.

This directly contradicts canon: "Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule, was born at this time." ("this time"--when Ganondorf touched the Triforce)

Ganon did not exist before the Triforce was touched; he was "born at that time."

Originally Posted by Froboy

So are you saying that the Dark Tribe that was sealed long ago was led by Ganon himself, who created a Trident to give... back to Ganon? Or are you saying that Ganondorf's pig-image has absolutely nothing to do with the pig-like image. I know there are some alternatives, but I'm going through them in my head and none of them make as much sense as this one.

I'm saying that the Trident was made by servants of Darkness with the intention of Ganondorf taking it and covering Hyrule in Darkness. We have no evidence that these people were the Dark Tribe though.

One more thing that I was thinking about. Has anyone noticed how the members of the Dark Tribe that you meet within FSA's Dark World almost worship Vaati, and thank you immensly that you set him free, yet, while Ganon reigns free, they make no notice of him, where as in your theories they should be worshipping him instead? In fact, they made mention of Dark Link bothering them too just as the people from the light world mentioned him. If Dark Link, a creation of Ganon, was antagonizing the Dark Tribe as well, why would the Dark Tribe be so attached to Ganon by supporting him with their power (or giving him back his own power or whatever)?

We never see the Dark Tribe in FSA. They were sealed away within the Dark Mirror long before FSA. The Deku Scrubs support Ganon, but they are not of the Dark Tribe. They are inhabitants of the Lost Woods.

So in effect we could theorise that the spirit of "Ganon" could posess anyone willing and evil enough to become him?

[edit] Wow... the posting is fast and furious on this thread

Lex, where is that quote from? I'm not familiar with it...

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

This directly contradicts canon: "Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule, was born at this time." ("this time"--when Ganondorf touched the Triforce)

Ganon did not exist before the Triforce was touched; he was "born at that time."

That's dependent on the context of that quote. As you know, I have never believed that ALTTP BS is OoT. If Ganon dies, he can be born again.

Originally Posted by Duoae

Hmmm. I'm wondering if perhaps the name "Ganon" is similar to the "devil" in christian mythology. ie. Anyone who is or seems to be the ultimate evil is called Ganon? It just happens that the only two humans (one if you are like me) we've seen become "a Ganon" are called Ganondorf...

Originally Posted by Raian

Ganon is the Hyrulian equivalent of Satan. The conquest of Darkness has been comparable in spirit with the Apocalypse, and only Ganon can bring about that conquest.

I might be wrong about this, but the name Ganondorf was first introduced in ALttP where they made the connection that he was indeed Ganon. The BS indicates that the name "Ganon" was not just an evil name that was granted to Ganondorf through his massive power, but rather, a name that simply described him as the King of Theives that the Gerudos used in mentioning his name. This goes against the theory that "Ganon" is the Hyrulean equivalent of the name "Satan" as describing title rather than one being. However, comparing the two as both being a specified being that doesn't put emphasis on the name as a title but rather their actual names, then yes, I agree. Ganon in that sense is the Hyrulean equivalent of Satan.

Originally Posted by Froboy

I might be wrong about this, but the name Ganondorf was first introduced in ALttP where they made the connection that he was indeed Ganon. The BS indicates that the name "Ganon" was not just an evil name that was granted to Ganondorf through his massive power, but rather, a name that simply described him as the King of Theives that the Gerudos used in mentioning his name. This goes against the theory that "Ganon" is the Hyrulean equivalent of the name "Satan" as describing title rather than one being. However, comparing the two as both being a specified being that doesn't put emphasis on the name as a title but rather their actual names, then yes, I agree. Ganon in that sense is the Hyrulean equivalent of Satan.

The name "Ganondorf" references the human. The name "Ganon" references the demon within the human. When Ganondorf loses his human form, only the demon remains and the name "Ganon".

Originally Posted by Raian

That's dependent on the context of that quote.

Not really.

I'm not interpreting it as OoT.

I'm interpreting it as describing that the Ganon persona is begotten (and, later, "re-begotten") by Ganondorf's evil heart when he takes power.

i.e., in OoT, "Ganon" was born when Ganondorf became King of Evil
in FSA, "Ganon" was reborn when Ganondorf took the Trident
in ALttP (presuming ALttP Ganon is not FSA Ganon), "Ganon" was reborn (again) when Ganondorf touched the Triforce.

Originally Posted by Raian

The name "Ganondorf" references the human. The name "Ganon" references the demon within the human. When Ganondorf loses his human form, only the demon remains and the name "Ganon".

Then how do you explain the name "Ganon" meaning "Ganondorf King of the Gerudos"? (That isn't word for word, but the ALttP BS says what his name means and it is something like that)

Edit:

Oh, my bad, "Mandrag Ganon" means "Ganon of the enchanted theives". Heh.... oops.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Not really. I'm not interpreting it as OoT.

I'm interpreting it as describing that the Ganon persona is begotten (and, later, "re-begotten") by Ganondorf's evil heart when he takes power.

I think we agree on the same thing but have crossed communications on the definitions.

Ganondorf is the King of Darkness when he becomes the incarnation of Darkness. As a simple human, Ganondorf may be able to wield Darkness, but he cannot earn the title without absolute control over that power. The ToP and Trident respectively allow Ganondorf that ability to transform. Even though we see him as a human in OoT-TWW, the games never refer to him as human once he acquires the ToP.

However, despite the lack of physical ability to attain the title of "King of Darkness", this does not mean that Ganondorf does not possess the spirit of that King. Does Link need to possess the spirit of another Hero before he can be defined as the Hero himself? The spirit of the Hero is his, and the title is gained when he proves the physical nature of that spirit.

Originally Posted by Froboy

Then how do you explain the name "Ganon" meaning "Ganondorf King of the Gerudos"? (That isn't word for word, but the ALttP BS says what his name means and it is something like that)

That point only occurs in the incorrect NOA translation of ALTTP BS. In the Japanese BS, he is simply Ganondorf.

Originally Posted by Raian

Does Link need to possess the spirit of another Hero before he can be defined as the Hero himself?

The power of the hero has to awaken in him before he can become "the hero", or he has to prove himself before the gods via some trial in order to obtain that power.

I would say the same for Ganondorf. He always has the potential to become Ganon, but is not Ganon until he obtains the power suitable to being King of Darkness.