Disproving TMC coming first

Originally Posted by quick_silver20

games beat 100%: LoZ, AoL, AlttP, LA, OoT, TMC, tWW, TP

games I got to the end of: MM, OoS, FSA

games I haven't beaten: OoA, FS,PH

lol

?

Have you really beaten TWW 100%? (Figurines tingle trophies and treasure/sub/platform charts)

Originally Posted by Pinecove

4. I never said I asume just because of a backdrop. But however you can't say it doesn't give a bit of evidance.

No more evidence than there being an ocean off of hyrule...

5. As I and the rest of the UWM have said developer quotes are insufficiant. If Shigaru miamotto said TWW was the first game would you belive him?

I'm sorry but if thats all the evidance you can give than thats completely ignoring facts.

But the fact is that none of them have. A game that we know was not first has never been stated to be first so that analogy doesn't hold any water.

But if ALttP was said to be the first game would you belive him?

Of course you would because you take in everything developers say.

a. In-Game Quotes
b. Game Manual
c. The Game Arcs (AlttP/LoZ/AoL)
d. Geography: physical exsistence of certain landmarks at certain times (ie, Hyrule Castle, Lake Hylia, Gerudo Desert, Spectacle Rock, Death Mountain, The Colossium)
e. The Tracking of the Royal Family (whether there is a king, who protects them, do they have the triforce, whether they are Hylian or Human, or mixed blood)
f. Races
g. Language
h. Geography: The physical geography of the land itself, the placement of the landmarks in the map (also the way that the timeline works around the flood)
i. Developer Quotes
j. The State of the Triforce
k. The State of Ganon
l. The State of The Master Sword and the Four Sword
m Cameos (characters that physically appear in multiple games (Tingle, the Windfish, the Twinrova)
n. Recurring Items
o. Game Guide/walkthroughs

No, absolutly not, people keep saying this (what if Miyamoto said this, what if Aonuma said that)

and the answer is no, I would not believe it because it would be contradicted by ingame evidence, which is higher in hierarchy than developer quotes. Please pay attention to the hierarchy before asking dumb questions, or disagree with the hierarchy, but the hierarchy really isn't very debatable.

Oh and yes to the tingle charts, yes to the caves, and yes to all but like three of the statues, (you can put it in the games I got to the end of if you really want to, that game was exshausting)

Originally Posted by quick_silver20

No, absolutly not, people keep saying this (what if Miyamoto said this, what if Aonuma said that)

and the answer is no, I would not believe it because it would be contradicted by ingame evidence, which is higher in hierarchy than developer quotes. Please pay attention to the hierarchy before asking dumb questions, or disagree with the hierarchy, but the hierarchy really isn't very debatable.

Than may you imply this "ingame evidance" as you call it. (No hat)

No, because I don't know what the hat as ingame evidence implies. That TMC is first because of a hat? Certainly not.

I believe that quick_silver20 has stated before that "no hat" or "Kokirish clothing" has no effect on timeline status.

There is no ingame evidence stating that TMC is first, last or at any other point other than being before FS and FSA.

We then have positive developer quotes stating that first OoT was first (again it was in the same situation as TMC is now when it was released) then FS was first and by logical deduction we can get that TMC is first.

Tell me, why do you believe that OoT is first without stating that it's a developer quote and or saying that there is kokirish clothing there. There is no ingame evidence locating it in relation to other Legend of Zelda's.

I do seem to recall there being a book in the Castle Town Library entitled "Torai Fosu," which is the Japanese equivalent of "Triumph Forks" from the English versions of TWW... Of course, it was written in Modern Hylian, so I can't expect everyone to know about it...

whoah, i mean whoah, you are clear out there MoAlttP.

Surely that can be classed as an easter egg - just like the Master Sword turning up in the oracles?

Originally Posted by Duoae

I believe that quick_silver20 has stated before that "no hat" or "Kokirish clothing" has no effect on timeline status.

There is no ingame evidence stating that TMC is first, last or at any other point other than being before FS and FSA.

We then have positive developer quotes stating that first OoT was first (again it was in the same situation as TMC is now when it was released) then FS was first and by logical deduction we can get that TMC is first.

Tell me, why do you believe that OoT is first without stating that it's a developer quote and or saying that there is kokirish clothing there. There is no ingame evidence locating it in relation to other Legend of Zelda's.

1. The game manual

2. If OoT was second than the people would remember the events of TMC.

3. oviosly I don't belive that TMC is first and TP TWW PH FS FSA ALttP LA OoS OoA LoZ AoL can't be first either.

I've given some evidance now where is yours (NO DAMN DEVELOPER QUOTES)

Originally Posted by Duoae

Surely that can be classed as an easter egg - just like the Master Sword turning up in the oracles?

I don't think the "Triumph forks" even exist to tell the truth.

1. Wha-? The in game manual states that it is the first zelda game in the timeline? I've never heard this before. Can someone else verify this please? I don't own a copy of the original manual.

2. Not if they happened hundreds or thousands of years apart.

I'm afraid i can't take them as conclusive evidence - until i can get a second opinion on the game manual thing.

I told you, i can't give any evidence outside of it's before FS and the developer quotes. Like i said, i've never seen any empirical evidence for OoT being first outside of "then current" developer quotes. My point was that you can't dismiss TMC as being first any more than you can OoT.

Originally Posted by Duoae

1. Wha-? The in game manual states that it is the first zelda game in the timeline? I've never heard this before. Can someone else verify this please? I don't own a copy of the original manual.

2. Not if they happened hundreds or thousands of years apart.

I'm afraid i can't take them as conclusive evidence - until i can get a second opinion on the game manual thing.

I told you, i can't give any evidence outside of it's before FS and the developer quotes. Like i said, i've never seen any empirical evidence for OoT being first outside of "then current" developer quotes. My point was that you can't dismiss TMC as being first any more than you can OoT.

1. I never said it did I just said that it has the "uniting" thing

2. TWW takes place about 1000 years away from OoT AND the world was flooded.

3. Please post a manual of OoT here and than I can prove my theory.

4. Than you admit that either TMC or OoT can be first?

Yes i admit that either TMC or OoT can be first if you don't take developer quotes into account. If you do then TMC has to be first.

I found a manual posted on the internet and there is no indication that the game is first. SO all's we have to go on is developer quotes. Which means that logically TMC overrides OoT.

http://zs.ffshrine.org/ocarina-of-ti...nual-scans.php

Originally Posted by quick_silver20

whoah, i mean whoah, you are clear out there MoAlttP.

Yes, I wasn't really expecting anyone to figure out what it is that I'm saying. So, allow me to explain.

*clears throat*

In the Castle Town Library in TMC, we are able to shrink to the size of the Minish and climb on a bookshelf. Looking at a several of the books' spines, you can see that there is Hylian writing on them. This Hylian is the kind we see used on the islands of the Great Sea in TWW, which is known as Modern Hylian. This form of Hylian appears to be dominant in a post-flood world, as evidenced by signs on a few shops in FSA's Village of the Blue Maiden. Because Twilight Princess has retconned the form of Hylian used in Old Hyrule from a Japanese-esque, syllable-based language to a more Romanic language involving an alphabet, we have an understanding as to why Link could not understand the words of the Great Deku Tree. Essentially, Link speaks Japanese, whereas the Great Deku Tree was speaking English. Had the Great Deku Tree been speaking the form of Hylian seen in OoT and MM, Link would have been able to understand it, as the only difference is in the written forms of the languages.

That was just the first strike through the pre-OoT placement of TMC. The next thing I would like to point out is the fact that the book in the library was entitled "Torai Fosu," which is what the "Triumph Forks" were called in Japan. Japanese people love puns, much like the people of the Elizabethan Era in Europe. As we all know, a pun is a play on words. This often involves using a word or a collection of words which sound like another word which could be used in the context of the rest of the sentence. Essentially, you end up with a joke. Allow me to give an example from a work of Shakespeare. A cobbler, a shoemaker, says that he is a "mender of bad soles." What he is saying is that he fixes bad soles. Soles, however, sounds like souls. So, if we didn't know that he was a cobbler and we didn't have the written words in front of us, we may think that he's saying that he fixes bad souls.

So, knowing what exactly a pun is, and that the Japanese name of the Triforce is Toraifosu, we can all agree that Torai Fosu (Triumph Forks) is a pun on Toraifosu (Triforce). Now, let's look at how this name change came about. As we are told in TWW, the Hero of Time (Let's not drag TP into this, okay? Technically, Link in TP is the Hero of Time, but we can discuss that later.) split up the Triforce of Courage before he left Hyrule and scattered the pieces across the land. In the Hero's absence, Ganon returned and his actions brought about the Great Flood.

Seeing as the people of the Great Sea developed a language in which Toraifosu and Torai Fosu are practically identical, mixups are bound to occur through communication amongst the people of various islands. Seeing as the lifestyles of many people revolve around traversing the Great Sea and often result in communication of some sort (Rito mailmen are meant to allow communication, while sailors will often tell tales) there are bound to be misconceptions. While writing, the symbols for "i" and "fo" could end up spaced just a bit too far apart, whereas a sailor may pause between "Torai" and "fosu." The end result is the same: the Great Sea causes the Golden Power to be known as a set of golden cutlery.

As you can see, it would be impossible for TMC to occur prior to OoT, as completely different languages are used at the two times and the Triforce is still known by a name given to it after the events preceding TWW, which occured after OoT. How can something exist prior to the event which lead to its existence?

I can't see that as being conclusive evidence sorry. All's that says is there is

1) a developer in-joke

2) Similar art-style and language ideas in games released around each other (TWW, TMC, FS, FSA, PH) or (OoT, MM) or (ALttP, LA, OoA, OoS) or (LoZ, AoL). There is no more evidence saying that the way the language has evolved in the game world is anything more than the developer's decisions from release dates - ie. the languages have changed with subsequent releases and not with game's timelines.

Originally Posted by Duoae

I can't see that as being conclusive evidence sorry. All's that says is there is

1) a developer in-joke

2) Similar art-style and language ideas in games released around each other (TWW, TMC, FS, FSA, PH) or (OoT, MM) or (ALttP, LA, OoA, OoS) or (LoZ, AoL). There is no more evidence saying that the way the language has evolved in the game world is anything more than the developer's decisions from release dates - ie. the languages have changed with subsequent releases and not with game's timelines.

I am quite familiar with people who think the way that you do, and that is exactly why every timeline theorist will never be able to agree on a single theory of the timeline. Because we all have different interpretations of things, and it is human nature to never admit you are wrong (or perhaps it's just that way with men?), we will never be willing to compromise in order to reach a conclusion. However, I am just stating the theory that I believe in, and if you don't want to agree with it then I'm perfectly fine with it. I'm not forcing you to believe it, nor is anyone else.

Yes, that's fine that you believe in that. I've just been trying to make a point that "higher" evidence stating that TMC or OoT is first only comes from the developers as there are no other primary sources from in the games themselves.

Originally Posted by Duoae

Yes i admit that either TMC or OoT can be first if you don't take developer quotes into account. If you do then TMC has to be first.

I found a manual posted on the internet and there is no indication that the game is first. SO all's we have to go on is developer quotes. Which means that logically TMC overrides OoT.

http://zs.ffshrine.org/ocarina-of-ti...nual-scans.php

Thats the instruction manual not the actuall manual.