The Fading of a Legend

Seeing as how LOZ Historian is leaving due to recent muck-ups in TP caused by Miyamoto, I felt I should look back at the series and see how Zelda has faded from its glory to what it is today. Before you start flaming me, just hear me out.

The Glory Days. That's what people say when referring to older times. There's a reason why they are the Glory Days. Things were better back then, even though the graphics were, by today's standards, rubbish. Back when Nintendo were king of the games industry, the NES and the SNES ruled. The original Zelda brought something new to gamers. An open adventure, where you could explore freely, complete dungeons in any order, and save where ever you had progressed to. The difficulty factor was amazingly flexible. For some, the game was easy, and for others, the game was hard. I myself have yet to complete it, since I keep getting lost and stuck in dungeons.

When the Adventure of Link came along, the difficulty level was immense. Everything was incredibly hard, and remains the toughest Zelda to date, with the side-scrolling theme being an infamous oddity in the Zelda universe.

After the release of the SNES, there was another Zelda game released. A game that most consider to be one of, if not the best Zelda game ever made. ALttP went back to the original top-down perspective, and had the player following a gripping storyline, exploring a massive twelve dungeons, and facing off against Ganon after travelling through both Light and Dark Worlds.

The next Zelda game, released on the Gameboy, showed that the series was starting to slip a bit. LA didn't take place in Hyrule, but on an island in the Wind Fish's dream. The storyline was good, but something felt missing from LA.

When the series made its debut with 3D graphics, heaven arrived on earth. OoT showed that the transition from 2D to 3D could be done, and could be done incredibly well. OoT surpassed all expectations, and had one of the best and most dramatic storylines of the Zelda series. The Master Sword was put to great use, with more sword techniques than ever before, and the ability to go from past to future and vice versa at will is complete genius. Ocarina of Time remains the best Zelda game, and the best game, of all time, and the polls support this.

The sequel to OoT, MM, was in my eyes, the turning point for the series. MM was when the series started to go downhill. MM had a great storyline and amazing gameplay, plus the darkest atmosphere of any Zelda game, but something wasn't quite right. There was some "kiddiness" that seemed to be creeping through in MM. The final boss is a prime example. The room and the boss were brightly coloured, and the music was very childish. After MM, Zelda was never the same again.

The twin Oracle games released on the GBC didn't slide any more towards chilishness than MM did, but that seriousness and dark tone that was in previous games had gone from the Oracles. When FS was released on the GBA, we saw the cel-shaded artwork come out. The art style of FS was fine, there was just something that seemed very appealing if you were young, but sort of unappealing if you're a teenager.

When TWW came out, there was absolute uproar in the Zelda community. Many claimed that this was the end of Zelda, and in a sad way, they were right to a degree. TWW was the major turning point in the series, when Zelda made the full move to a mainstream franchise. The game had very childish sound effects, chibi characters and appealed mostly to the younger audience.

FSA and TMC followed TWW's child like formula, but regained some of that dark atmosphere. Then the miracle of all miracles happened...

Twilight Princess! The game that saved Zelda! Or is it? Yes, the graphics have returned to the mature realistic look that OoT and MM had, yes that dark, forboding atmosphere had definately returned in full swing, but all was not well. Every now and then, I see bits of TWW's style coming through in TP. The look of some characters and the noises they make is very like TWW, and some childish things that you'd think would be missing from TP are present. As for the final battle with Zant at the end of TP. Well, lets just say I was severely disappointed with how childish and TWW like that the fight was.

I won't even go into what PH does.

So that's what I think. Zelda has slowly moved from being a hardcore gamer series, to being targeted at the casual gamer, the non-gamer, and the mainstream audience in general. It's gone from the mature darkness of the the originals, to this childish rubbish that constantly shines in the latest games. I had hoped that TP was the saviour, and would get back to the atmosphere OoT had. TP did do this, but those bits of TWW chilishness that shone through ruined it a bit. The series looks to be turning back to its roots, how it used to be, but Nintendo's will to target Zelda at casual gamers will prevent this.

That's why Zelda has faded from the Glory Days. That's why (even though my first Zelda game was TWW) I prefer the older games. The transition from hardcore to casual has left its mark on Zelda, and it ain't pretty. I guess all we can do is hope and pray that Nintendo decide to reunite the Zelda series with its once legendary status.

If you want to flame me, fine, but in all honesty, this is pretty much what has happened to Zelda.

It's not that zelda was once for the hardcore, it's that ALL games during the 8/16/32 bit era were for the hardcore. But even then, to say "hardcore" nearly misses the mark because there are A LOT of 20 somethings that have played the classics as children, young children mind-you, is that hardcore, or just a by gone era?

Games were much simpler back in the day, you were very limited in how and what one could do, so of course the original zelda's were so difficult, they were extremely limited!

As continuing franchizes progress through history, all they can do is get easier for the "hardcore", not only have we become accustom to most every type of puzzle zelda has to offer, but difficulty wise, we almost immediatly understand the enemies, their attack patterns, etc.
For my friends and family TP is a very hard game, but they enjoy it nonetheless, very similar to the original legend of zelda, a game enjoyed by everyone despite it's difficulty.
It's not that zelda isn't harcore anymore, TP is in every sense of the word a hardcore zelda, but it is hardcore not the the diehard fans, it is hardcore to the casual gamer, just as the orginal LoZ was.
If there was to be a true hardcore zelda, for the diehard fan, then I'm quite certain not many casual gamers, or those new to games in general, would play it at all, and just look at it as some crazy experience only for the gods of zelda.

I think I get what ZeldaGamer21 is trying to argue. The original Zelda games kept to a theme that is generally associated with serious medieval fantasy whereas the later Zelda games threw away part of this theme for more lighthearted elements in the vein of TWW.

I don't agree that Nintendo should have forced the Zelda series as a whole down this avenue of medieval fantasy but I do agree that TP would have made a better impression if it had kept to the theme. For me, innovation in gameplay has always been what kept the series interesting, which is why, to a degree, I am looking forward more to playing PH than to playing TP.

I openly admit that I like the WW graphics a lot. I think they are at least equal to the "mature and realistic" graphics of OoT and TP. Like in any form of art there are different styles to express your self throug your creations. The merits of these stylistic choises cannot be measured by matureness alone. To me it's a matter of how well the the style suits the content regardless of the context. In the case of Zelda I think the WW graphics were a perfect match for the plot and themes of the game. The mature spirit is nice and does give a certain credibility to a game but to be openly childish and not hide the humorous sides of Zelda was a very brave move not many games can make.

Now if all the games had been dark, realistic and "mature" I think they would have lacked a sense of openness and true matureness. There's a child in everyone of us and we shouldn't hide it.

But then again this wasn't really ZG21's point. The point was in the plots, not the graphics.

Wow I love when people do this.

ZeldaGamer21: Recent 'muck-ups'? Clearly you weren't paying attention when they released ALttP. The Zelda franchise has never had a storyline, its just a rumor created by the Nintendo and feuled by the supposed links between the games. The links are there because it is ultimately the same story told in many different ways.

When anyone metions graphics in an argument about games it, in my opinion, totally negates everything else they say. Graphics are simply how the game looks and therefore should have no bearing on how good a game is when seen through the eyes of a 'hardcore' gamer.

Also Nintendo were never the 'kings', they were on par with Sega in many ways, it is just that while Sega bit the proverbial dust they endured.

LoZ was like nothing that came before it, I agree with you on that. It set down precedents that are still used today in games like TES3: Morrowind and even WoW. And as for the difficulty... when done in the right way a person can easily go from start to finish in under a day, the beauty of the game was the way you replayed it, and it became much harder. Do not worry you are not alone in the 'yet to complete', I know plenty of people that can breeze through all the other Zelda games but get stuck in LoZ.

AoL is the best Zelda game ever made in my personal opinion. I mark it as the turning point in gaming, it really seperated the casuals from the hardcore. Aswell as being a brilliantly laid out game. Funnily enough alot of the precepts of sidescrolling in AoL can be found scattered though the Gameboy Zelda releases.

One thing you have to respect obout the above two, is that the story was minimal at best. Miyamoto just wanted to create an fantasy adventure, he couldn't care less about the story.

ALttP... a paragon of the 32bit age. A game which held top position among all others for almost 5 years. It was far more storylined than it predecessors, and with a depth of gaming intracacy. It included many new features that define Zelda games, heart peices, magical swords and the occaisional tricky puzzle. It was a massive game with a great story... but I don't think they ever meant it to connect with any other Zelda's, infact bar certains names and familiar settings I think all the Zelda games were made to stand alone.

Next Link's Awakening, the fact that it was handheld added to its depth. As it may have been an overall easy game, first time playing it was confusing. A trading game and a find the 'easter egg' style quest to get the next level of sword would take up a great deal of your time.

OoT while being one of the best games ever, and arguably the best Zelda game, is not the number one game of all time. As I have pointed out many times, that honour falls with Soul Calibur on the DreamCast. However it is in the top five. The 3D element was revolutionary and added more complicated features and some truely amazing puzzles.

MM, besides being the most metally disturbing ever made, also had a great premise, everything was on a timer. This was a first for an AA/RP game. Aswell as that it added some spectacular gameplay elements and as is par for the series puzzles galore. However it was not when Zelda 'started to go downhill'. From a gameplay perspective it was amazing. You can just overlook the 'kiddiness' that has been there since LA. It was a brilliant game that tried out some new and interesting angles.

TWW. Everybody whines about TWW. Honestly go stick a pole up your backside and use toothpaste as the lube, TWW was a great game. It was exceptional, the combat system was excellent and the story was perfect, yeah people argue that it was Cel-Shaded who CARES. CS graphics was a vold and inspired step by the Zelda development team.

FSA and TMC were brilliant games, so unless you can come up with anything beyond how they look or the stories 'kiddiness' shut the frack up.

TP, as I have yet to finish all of the game 100% I will not give any opinion.

Zelda has never left the glory days... except for the Dark Ages of Zelda gaming that was WoG and so on.

Originally Posted by Paxen

TWW. Everybody whines about TWW. Honestly go stick a pole up your backside and use toothpaste as the lube, TWW was a great game. It was exceptional, the combat system was excellent and the story was perfect, yeah people argue that it was Cel-Shaded who CARES. CS graphics was a vold and inspired step by the Zelda development team.

Where did I say that TWW wasn't a great game? Where did I say the combat system wasn't excellent? Where did I say that the story wasn't perfect? Nowhere. My main gripes about TWW weren't to do with the graphics, no, I love the graphics. But it was what the graphical style meant that bothered me. This thread was meant to express my opinion on how over the years, Zelda has adapted to cater for the mainstream audience unlike the old days, and how more and more childish aspects are coming into the series. TWW was the most childish Zelda to date, and that was my only complaint about it.

Originally Posted by Paxen

FSA and TMC were brilliant games, so unless you can come up with anything beyond how they look or the stories 'kiddiness' shut the frack up.

Again, you are misunderstanding me. I never said that the storylines for FSA and TMC were "kiddy", I said that there was lots of TWW's childishness in the games.

I'm not going to lie. I haven't played LoZ or AoL all the way through. Not because they're bad titles--because they fail to live up to what I deem "fantasy titles". The scripts are terrible, the gameplay is bland (but hard!), and the worlds are too sectionalized for my tastes. That being said, ALttP did a good job of bringing the LoZ/AoL style into the new generation, giving it colorful and lively sprites, a great storyline (if a bit short/small), and a great, big, vibrant world. Compared to LoZ/AoL, ALttP was an epic. It had characters--characters with names!--and it did a good job of making you feel like you were in a world. And it was hard--not as hard as its predecessors, but it was a challenge for me the first time. The dungeons and puzzles were pretty easy--I'm talking just staying alive. Tough.

LA sort of departed from this, mostly due to the technological shortcomings of the original GB. But, at the same time, a lot of the "kiddy" elements TWW and the Four Swords games get teased for were present there. At the same time, however, the dungeons were rich and, at least in my opinion, much more difficult than those of ALttP, and the main quests kept you moving. The combat wasn't quite as difficult, but, again, the dungeon difficulty more than made up for this. The world also seemed a bit bigger than ALttP's Hyrule, and the trading sequence was terrific.

OoT, of course, was my first Zelda game, and so I was hit with the best of the series all at once. It had the depth of ALttP/LA's worlds, a storyline that nearly doubled that of ALttP in its size and depth, and some amazing characters--and, for the first time, it was in 3D, and included the much-needed aspect of character development. Other than Rauru and Kaepora Gaebora, all of the characters changed in some way, big or small, throughout the course of the game. Since it was my first Zelda game, I struggled a little, but looking back, OoT was lacking in an area that previous games excelled in--difficulty.

MM took this to the next level, really. There was a bit more depth and variety in Termina, and the characters were among the most developed of the series. Termina also boasts the series' largest and busiest town (I admit that it may be topped by TP's Castle Town, but I doubt it). I'm going to have to strongly disagree that MM is where the series started going downhill--because MM did everything, and I mean everything right. There were enough characters to keep me interested, enough development to make me care, enough sidequests to keep me occupied, and the main quest was involving enough that it took focus to complete. I think the time limit aspect enhanced this rather than detracted from it--since it forced me to keep my eyes on the prize (especially during the egg hunting quest in Great Bay). The gameplay blows OoT's out of the water with the added variety of the Deku, Goron, and Zora forms, and while there were only four dungeons, those four dungeons are my favorite dungeons in the series (again, TP may change this). The "kiddy" aspects went largely unnoticed (carnivals have their own sort of terrifying charm anyway), as my focus was entirely on how awesomely this game was executed.

The Oracles I view as a purely spin-off series in an attempt to get handheld support, but they excelled everywhere LA did--the new items were great, the variety was good, the storylines kicked ass, but, unfortunately, they were pretty easy.

I'm going to have to disagree with ZG21 again. The "kiddy elements" in TWW by no means hurt its status as a great game, nor did it "change" the series as a whole, IMO. The fact that the game was fairly short and remarkably easy managed to do that, though. Again, the series, in terms of quality, has never failed to impress me. The difficulty level, though, often leaves something to be desired. This raises an interesting point, though--are the games getting easier, or are we just getting smarter/better?

FSA and TMC are good extensions of the 2D franchise, and they offer unique elements, but again, they fail to live up to the difficulty of the earlier games.

We'll see how TP is for me.

Lex, I never said that any of the Zelda games weren't brilliant, since they all are. It's just the easiness and childishness of the newer games that gets to me. TP leans towards what it was like before things went a bit wrong, but the dungeons are still a bit too easy. MM isn't THE turning point, or when the series started to go downhill, MM was the game when the series started to start going downhill. The dungeons in MM were immensely difficult (never got through a single one without using a guide), but the end boss fight did seem rather unfitting for the way the rest of the game was. That was what I meant about MM being the game when the series started to start go downhill.

Well... I am 20 and I actually enjoy the childish comic moments... Playing back through OoT you find that there are quite a few in that game as well. Since it's move to 3d, Zelda has had a nice balance of revolutionary gameplay, great story and fantastic human touch. tWW is a great story with a little more fun then difficulty. And for the amazing (it is my favorite game of all time) Ocarina of Time...

Watch someone who has never played a Zelda game try and get through OoT. My girlfriend died 12 times fighting Volvagia and has averaged more than 4 hours per dungeon with me making sure she doesn't skip anything important that most players skipped the first time.

I can't wait for TP, if it is anything like OoT I will love it to death.

Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21

TP leans towards what it was like before things went a bit wrong, but the dungeons are still a bit too easy.

Again, it's all relative. Are the dungeons easier, or are you just better?

Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21

The dungeons in MM were immensely difficult (never got through a single one without using a guide), but the end boss fight did seem rather unfitting for the way the rest of the game was.

That's a matter of taste. I found the psychidelic-ness of it to be quite appropriate. Majora always had a freaky, child's play horror aura about it. The final boss epitomized this.

TWW has a unique style- is it so wrong for the series to differ once? The graphics and sotry worked perfectly together, and the 'kiddy' moments just added to the charm and style. It had epic moments too and I loved the characterisation of ganondorf.

Just because one entry in the series goes a different route, the fanboys start screaming. I'm sick of it. One game that has a slightly lighter tone does NOT mean the series has changed permanantly or for the worse.

*sigh* So many people misunderstanding me / not reading thread correctly. darthcucco, I never said that TWW was the ONLY game that had the kiddiness aspect, I said ALL the NEWER games had that kiddy aspect. And the graphical style isn't the main reason for why I'm saying TWW was kiddy, it was just a small reason as to why I said it. Also, I never said the story didn't work, and I never said there weren't epic moments or that Ganondorf's characterisation wasn't great.

Plus, I never said the series has changed permanantly, I just said that the more recent games have gone a bit wrong. I also said that TP is turning back to what the series used to be.

From what little I've seen, TP has managed to blend the somewhat childish humor with mature themes. Now if only they can clean up the delivery, and make the games a little more difficult, this might mark the return to the MM-esque formula that worked so well for MM. Add the MM gameplay, sidequest, and character formula to the epic OoT formula, and the series will be at the pinnacle of greatness, as it once was.

Originally Posted by Pàxèn

OoT while being one of the best games ever, and arguably the best Zelda game, is not the number one game of all time. As I have pointed out many times, that honour falls with Soul Calibur on the DreamCast.

A 3-D AA/RPG versus a "3-D" fighter?

Come now, you're comparing apples and oranges here.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

From what little I've seen, TP has managed to blend the somewhat childish humor with mature themes. Now if only they can clean up the delivery, and make the games a little more difficult, this might mark the return to the MM-esque formula that worked so well for MM. Add the MM gameplay, sidequest, and character formula to the epic OoT formula, and the series will be at the pinnacle of greatness, as it once was.

Exactly my point. TP leans towards the matureness of old, but still has the childishness from recent games.

Perhaps what ZeldaGamer21 is looking for is more openness to the level design. One thing I've noticed is that current games are far more "scripted" than their predecessors. Whereas older games gave the player a more general path to follow that could be personalised to some degree, the newer games are very much leading the player down the paths they want them to take.

Compare ALTTP with TMC as an example. ALTTP's dungeons (and the overworld to some degree) were very much about multiple doors and different routes to take. You needed to go through most of the doors to complete the dungeon but at least the choice was available. In TMC, the dungeons always went in a straight line, even though it was a twisting line. At no point did you feel like there were any real choices to make in direction, and the experience was similar in the overworld.

Until developers find a way to properly marry in-depth storylines with totally free-roam gameplay, however, I feel that openness will have to take a back-seat to story development. It still puzzles me that people don't seem to understand that, at least at present, a story-driven gameplay will always be linear. The more in-depth the storyline, the more linear the gameplay. This is why most people were hoping for tons of sidequests in TP, but it still baffles me that people can praise the slightly more in-depth story of TP and then bash it for being linear. It's very contradictory.

On a slightly different note, it'd be interesting to see what happens if Ninty throws more of their resources into actually driving the gameplay so it doesn't feel forced. The most recent installment of the Final Fantasy series pulls this off brilliantly (I'll have to pick it up). Just watching a few of the cutscenes tells me that the game feels like a story. The cutscenes in Zelda don't do the same for me. Maybe it's the voice-acting, but maybe it's not.

I think what players are expecting from next-gen Zelda is a game that identifies with a SquareEnix RPG but without the RPG battle and level-up system; something that defines Zelda as "epic" rather than just being "empty". For a game of the size that the developers were originally portraying, I was expecting for there to be a few towns and perhaps some scenes of grand civilisation.

With TP, I think the developers took players too literally when they said it should be like OoT. What the players wanted was an expanded OoT, building all the epic possibilities that could be realised on a next-gen console on top of established gameplay. Nintendo simply gave players everything that they had already experienced in OoT, so there was no real satisfaction from TP.

Look ZeldaGamer no one is misunderstanding you. That is what you said, wether you meant to or not ultimately you said TWW was a bad game

Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21

Exactly my point. TP leans towards the matureness of old, but still has the childishness from recent games.

Matureness of old? You're being ridiculous. Zelda has ALWAYS had childish elements, but in TWW they were a lot more obvious with the new graphical style.