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Old 11-14-2006, 05:46 PM
TripleEspresso9 TripleEspresso9 is offline
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The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

First off, I'd like to apologize for the inflammatory topic title. However, since you clicked on the topic, it served its purpose. Let me say that I do not believe all single timeline theorists are hypocrites. I even hold some, like Lex, in the highest esteem. That being said, all single timeline theorists, and probably even all double timeline theorists should read this.

Before I begin, I should say this. At first, I thought the idea of having a written hierarchy on a message board was kinda, well, stupid. But now, I'm grateful for it. Though I'm fairly new here, as a Hylian Knight, posters just can't dismiss what I have to say. I'll try to keep the bitter tone out of my writing. So, here it is...

We're all aware of what TSA said about TP and the timeline. That it "destroys" the single timeline theory. "Pretty much renders it impossible." We have absolutely NO idea what event/character/thing TSA is referring to, yet many single timeline theorists are already declaring "great victory" and saying that double timeline theorists are stupid for not believing them. Not only is that incredibly childish; it's hypocritcal as well. Let's check out this article, shall we: http://www.zhq2.com/eiji_exclusive_part1.shtml

Now, in the above interview, there is this line, “Aonuma admits that his remarks in an interview before The Wind Waker’s release in Japan were meant to convey ‘two timelines’.” The "above interview" is the Q&A from 2003 where Aonuma says there are "two endings" of OoT. He said, in the zhq article, that he meant, by saying that there were two endings, he meant for people to interpret that as meaning there are two timelines. So, Aonuma confirmed two timelines in this article, yet single timeline theorists NEVER accpeted it. The said the person who wrote the article wasn't a credible source, so it didn't count. Well, guess who wrote the article? That's right. None other than TSA. So, I think it says something that the majority of us double timeline theorists are patiently waiting to see what the deal is, instead of whining OmG NoES!!1! tEH TSA IZ NUT CreBidLE!11!!!SHIFT1!!! That's why I always had a gut feeling that unless the single timeline theory was confirmed, the debate would never end. Because those who are open-minded enough to acknowledge the a rather unorthodox theory (the double timeline) will be more willing to acknowledge that their theory is wrong. Whereas theorists, single or double, who aren't willing to even acknowledge the possibility of a theory other than their own will hold onto their beliefs until kingdom come.

Which leads me on to my next point. If you failed to ever even acknowledge the possibility of the double timeline theory as a logical alternative, you either A) are incredibly close-minded, or B) never truly understood how either of the theories worked, or C) both. Neither theory is perfect, and both have their flaws. Because of that, saying that you know the double timeline theory, or know the single timeline theory is wrong, is well, wrong. Both theories CAN work, and both have their problems. I'd advise EVERYONE, regardless of what you think you know about the timeline, to read sections 5 through 9 in this topic: The New GameFAQs Guide to the Timeline

And for my final thing, until we know exactly what happened in TP, neither theory is correct. Also, unless TP explains what happens after MM, the single timeline theory will only be correct by default. OoT Link showing up during the game won't fix the problems inherent of the single timeline theory. Conversely, Zelda saying, "The Hero of Time is in another universe," won't fix the problems inherent of the double timeline theory.

So, until we've all played TP, nothing is proven or disproven. And may I remind you that it was a single timeline theorist who said that TP "destroys" the double timeline theory. What destroys it to him is different than what destroys it to a neutral, or double timeline theorist. So, reserve judgment until you've played the game yourself, and definitely don't start to celebrate yet. If it turns out that TSA was exaggerating, or plain wrong, it could come back to haunt you.

Finally, if you believe the single timeline theory and have acted in a mature fashion, like Lex, I commend you. You've represented your beliefs well, and long live intelligent, open-minded timeline discussion.

-TE9
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:48 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

Quote:
Originally Posted by TE9
Now, in the above interview, there is this line, “Aonuma admits that his remarks in an interview before The Wind Waker’s release in Japan were meant to convey ‘two timelines’.” The "above interview" is the Q&A from 2003 where Aonuma says there are "two endings" of OoT.
When did Aonuma admit this? Why didn't TSA post an actual quote regarding these remarks? Hasn't TSA never spoken with Aonuma?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TE9
OoT Link showing up during the game won't fix the problems inherent of the single timeline theory.
Justifying a theory such as a split timeline theory on 'inconsistencies' with the single theory is silly, because inconsistencies are bound to exist. They often do within titles, and not just between them.

For example, the Gorons herald you as their hero in OoA, even before you go back in time to complete the task they declared you a hero for accomplishing, which shows that time is immutable--everything you go back in time to do will have already been done. Yet the quest involving bringing the medicine to King Zora demonstrates a mutable history--until you bring the medicine to King Zora, King Zora will die in the past, and have no descendants.

This is a clear, blatant, uncontestable inconsistency, but there is nothing we can do about it, since all of the events in question are part of the main story. Does OoA, then, split the timeline? Of course not.
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:53 PM
TripleEspresso9 TripleEspresso9 is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

Lex, I've shown you that before, I'm pretty sure. And TSA never admitted it to save face because he never actually interviewed Aonuma. What he did was attend a press conference where Aonuma said those things. The point of that was just to point out how when an article by TSA confirms the double timeline, the response from most double timeliners is just happy satisfaction, and many single timeliners were up in arms, saying TSA wasn't credible. Now that he says the single timeline is true, many single timeliners, not you, are throwing childish "victory parties," and saying they knew it all along.
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Old 11-14-2006, 05:55 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

Quote:
Originally Posted by TE9
What he did was attend a press conference where Aonuma said those things. The point of that was just to point out how when an article by TSA confirms the double timeline, the response from most double timeliners is just happy satisfaction, and many single timeliners were up in arms, saying TSA wasn't credible.
I wasn't there when this happened, but I'm still not even convinced that TSA is referencing an actual event he experienced firsthand. Could he possibly have been reporting from a secondhand source, who may have been incorporating his or her own biases? He makes a point not to clear up where or when these remarks were made.

This is the same reason why I never paid the comments that FS is first in the timeline any mind--Aonuma makes only a brief comment, and even says within the same interview how new he is to the Zelda series. In fact, the interview referenced by TSA's article is even older, so his ideas may have changed significantly since then.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:00 PM
DarkenZero24 DarkenZero24 is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

Actually, I did approach TSA about it. He admitted to me that indeed, the interview never took place, and thus he wrote that article in such a way so as to make it seem that there was. However, he then went on to tell me that he DID get to sit in a conference of sorts at TGS in which Aonuma was present, and at the end of it, he got a transcript that outlined the contents of what transipred within the conference, which included input from Aonuma himself. In that transcript, he claims, was all the information that he wrote in the above article, including the part about Aonuma confirming two timelines.

Believe what you want, but regardless, this is the same person making these claims. I am still willing to admit the death of the split timeline, but nevertheless, we should wait to see what transpires anyway before making rash assumptions. Who said that the death of the split timeline meant only good things for the single timeline as well? We have to wait and see for ourselves.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:00 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

If I remember rightly, TSA stated the "two timelines" confirmation was through a second-hand source.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:00 PM
Dr_bryan United_States Dr_bryan is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

Okay, I will say I celebrated prematurely...I have that problem... But, I still have to say Interviews are often wrong and sometimes mistranslated. I don't support the Double Timeline because I can't see the point of it, that and I feel all the games have connections with out using a double timeline. I have to say, I did get caught up in the fact that someone felt that TP destroys the Double timeline, and I ran with it...For that I'm sorry. I still have to say though if it's in the game, it's in the game. That is held in higher canon in the Wise mens arms and in mine that a interview. So, until I beat the game and come to my conclusion about weather it destroys a double timeline, I will not celebrate out of respect toward the Splitist.
With that I also ask, that Splitist respect that if the game does destroy the Double timeline, that they give up the Double timeline. I doubt that will have every group will be crazy and to closed minded. But, you get that everywhere in everything. I hope that with TP we can still come together as a group of Zelda fans and promote the Zelda games. Let us not become the Ganonbanning people here!
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:03 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

Either way, the article seems to have been taken down.

And we can argue forever about what Aonuma says--but it's the scriptwriters who really matter. They're the ones who actually write the games. Producers/directors just get executive license, and approve things. Unfortunately we haven't really gotten scriptwriter comments since OoT, but that's beside the point.

Aonuma actually does very little with respect to "making" the games. Even less so with respect to Twilight Princess.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:04 PM
DarkenZero24 DarkenZero24 is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

Indeed, you are right. But we still haven't seen the fruit of their works for ourselves, have we?
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:30 PM
TripleEspresso9 TripleEspresso9 is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

I don't support the Double Timeline because I can't see the point of it, that and I feel all the games have connections with out using a double timeline.

Dr. Bryan, explain to me how the double timeline theory works. I'm betting you don't really have any idea. And THAT'S why some people hate the double timeline theory. They don't understand it, so they think it's stupid, and close their minds to it even being a possibility.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:30 PM
DarkenZero24 DarkenZero24 is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

In any case, I have some more thoughts to add while we're on this subject. I only ask that, as former split timeliners, we not be faulted for our beliefs.

Some of you may claim to not have seen the point of a double timeline, but it all came down to differences between the way we valued things. The majority of single timeliners valued integrity and unity in the timeline, while double timeliners valued consistency and neatness. Neither theory, in restrospect, was truly better than the other, because there was evidence that was exclusive to one or the other, and sometimes evidence that worked for both depending on the interpretation (or twisting, as staunch opponents of a different theory would claim).

And for some reason, emotions ran so high that you had, and still have, people calling splittists stupid and idiotic, acting as if there was some kind of war. A war over what? How a bunch of games go in a certain order? And now that it seems TP has killed the double timeline, along comes the "Ha! I told you so, noobs!" and other senseless face-rubbing. I've seen plenty of flaming on both sides, but I'm afraid to say that some of the loudest and foulest came from some of the people in here. I'd love to see some of you meet me in real life, and say these things to my face; curse at me for believing in something different having to do with a bunch of fictional stories. It's quite easy to do so behind the safety of your monitors, isn't it?

Now, I bet some of you will go ahead and say "You would've done the same! You would've rubbed it in our faces, too!" And I would tell you that you are wrong, that I am beyond insulting people based on such frivolous affairs. But I am human, and thus, I cannot guarantee that I wouldn't have gotten carried away. So, maybe I would have rubbed it in. Does that give you the priviledge to do the same? Again, I would say no. Yet the hatred goes on.

But I do not wish for animosity. I only ask that we be mature about this. Many of us have conceded defeat, with others still waiting with skepticism. Needless to say, we are broken. No need for you to beat us while we're down. I ask that you do not let emotion get the best of you. We are only human. Is it our fault that we looked for a better alternative? Hell, we're not so different, anyway. Both sides demonize the other plenty, but all of it is unjustified. Split timeliners calling single timeliners close-minded, single timeliners calling split timeliners evil and storyline-breaking. In reality, we all had the same goal in mind: finding the truth.

So in the end, we were proven wrong. Yes, proven wrong, not confirmed to have been wrong all along. Because, like I stated, until recently, neither theory was wrong. And even then, we've yet to see what really happened to prove us wrong. But nevertheless, we're in the wrong as of now. Will we eventually admit that there's only one timeline? Most likely yes. Does that mean the timeline is finally explained, and the truth revealed? Not necessarily. It depends on the extent to which TP proves the single timeline. Chances are it fixed it, and OoT and MM fit in well now. Or maybe it didn't, and none of the qualms with the single timeline have been adressed. In that case, expect many people to give up on the timeline. You guys will be alright. Don't be so sure about everyone else. But we'll just have to wait and see, won't we?
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:31 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

If it has to be explained to even be considered, it's probably not intended to be the correct solution. Hence, why I believe in the single timeline.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:34 PM
DarkenZero24 DarkenZero24 is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

And the single timeline requires no explanation? Perhaps not when speaking generally, but get down to the details, and it gets ugly. That's why I believed in the double timeline.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:39 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

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Originally Posted by DarkenZero24 View Post
And the single timeline requires no explanation?
No one needed to explain the single timeline until the double timeline was created, since, until then, no one was going to argue that time worked differently. Except, of course, the 'alternate universe' theorists, who just think that there are no connections between some games. =/
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:40 PM
DarkenZero24 DarkenZero24 is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

And when was the double timeline created? When the flaws apparent with a single timeline came up! :XD
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:41 PM
Dr_bryan United_States Dr_bryan is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

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Originally Posted by TripleEspresso9 View Post
I don't support the Double Timeline because I can't see the point of it, that and I feel all the games have connections with out using a double timeline.

Dr. Bryan, explain to me how the double timeline theory works. I'm betting you don't really have any idea. And THAT'S why some people hate the double timeline theory. They don't understand it, so they think it's stupid, and close their minds to it even being a possibility.
I don't know it well, and so, you are right. All I know about Split timeline is that OoT created two endings and ALttP takes place in one while TWW takes place in another. I can't see the point of this theory... But, if you wish to explain it to me PM me, so we don't waste this topic. I will be very open to the theory that it could have worked if I fell it could. But, with TP, I doubt it will, but please, I will listen openly to your theory.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:42 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

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Originally Posted by DarkenZero24 View Post
And when was the double timeline created? When the flaws apparent with a single timeline came up! :XD
Again, who decided that flaws mattered? OoA time travel does not proceed logically, yet no one's invalidating it; why should it be the case with OoT-MM?
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:42 PM
DarkenZero24 DarkenZero24 is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

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Originally Posted by Dr_bryan View Post
I don't know it well, and so, you are right. All I know about Split timeline is that OoT created two endings and ALttP takes place in one while TWW takes place in another. I can't see the point of this theory... But, if you wish to explain it to me PM me, so we don't waste this topic. I will be very open to the theory that it could have worked if I fell it could. But, with TP, I doubt it will, but please, I will listen openly to your theory.
Actually, what you're describing is merely what I consider to be my take on the double timeline. There's another take in which only MM is left in its own timeline.

Bah, but why even bother, when the double timeline is dead? :XD
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:45 PM
DarkenZero24 DarkenZero24 is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

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Again, who decided that flaws mattered? OoA time travel does not proceed logically, yet no one's invalidating it; why should it be the case with OoT-MM?
And who decided that they don't? I like my timeline theories as flawless as humanly possible. That is my belief, and it is just as valid as yours.

We can do this forever, Lex ol' pal. It won't even matter, because I'm in the wrong. I'm only defending myself by stating that that was never the case until now.
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Old 11-14-2006, 06:51 PM
Dr_bryan United_States Dr_bryan is offline
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Re: The Incredible Hipocrisy of Single Timeline Theorists

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Originally Posted by DarkenZero24 View Post
Actually, what you're describing is merely what I consider to be my take on the double timeline. There's another take in which only MM is left in its own timeline.

Bah, but why even bother, when the double timeline is dead? :XD
It could, still exsist. No one who's discussing here has actually played the game yet...There will be people who will find loop holes, even though I'm glad that this game will Destroy the Double timeline, people won't give up and some will create other idea's that will be as idiotic(sorry about the namecalling) as Double timeline people have been. Not that DT were idiotic.
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