ATTN: A message, from across the Void!

Arturo has asked me to post this, so, in good spirit, I shall. Keep in mind that I do not [explicitly] endorse anything that's being said here; I'm simply delivering a simple message.

Originally Posted by Arturo, Legends Alliance

First, I would like to thank Lex for posting it for me.

I am Arturo, Staff Storyline Writer of the biggest and oldest site dedicated to Timeline discussion i.e. Zelda Legends, and a Timeline Theorist of the Legends Alliance Forums.

I have posted here to defend myself and the things I believe in, and to defend a good timeline theorist.

Mohammed, for those who don’t know, has been a Timeline theorist since before most of you probably even knew the concept of a Timeline. I consider him to be one of the people that taught me to theorize, and you are insulting him like ignorants.

ZeldaGamer21 is not a n00b, you are wrong in that Mohammed, he is worse. He is worse because, having knowledge, he acts like an ignorant. He is worse, because he just judges what he doesn’t know. He is worse because he takes everything as an offence. Legends Alliance is the most open community I have found. We all have different theories, some of us are Split Timeliners, some of us, Single Timeliners, we have people who place FSA after ALttP and others who place it after ALttP. And so on. We all believe different things, thus we have material to discuss. It’s true some of us are sarcastic, but sarcasm is a sign of intelligence, and understanding and accepting sarcasm is even better.

You, ZeldaGamer21, came to LA thinking you are superior to any of us. You came here to TEACH. That is a typically n00b thing. I myself, being an articulate of an important webpage, don’t go there to teach, but to discuss. Because in Zelda there is no true wisdom, all evidence is ambiguous and no absolute truth can be reached. That’s why it’s an idiocy saying something has already been discussed, and thus, it will not be discussed because you have already proven it. If you believe your Timeline (which is one of the best Single Timelines I have seen, by the way) to be 100% proven, then you are an idiot, because a timeline requires bending some of the canon, rejecting other parts and assuming things. The only strict canonists are Timeline Nihilists, and this is clearly not the case.

There are big differences between the “schools of theorizing” of LA and ZU. In LA we try to reach the true developer’s intentions, to understand the spirit of canon. In ZU you take Zelda as “real world” and canon is absolute. No view is wrong or right on itself. What is wrong is believing the ones who have the other ways are idiot n00bs. By saying so, the only thing you are proving is that you are idiot.

Anyway, about the so-called invasion of LA and ZU… There is nothing like a war between the Empire of Zelda Universe and the Kingdom of Zelda Legends. I am no leader of any war and neither is Mohammed. What is correct is that time ago, MasterofALttP and HeroofTime5 came to us asking for our best timeliner. That is an alien, quasi-theological concept for us. I understand you have a hierarchy, but we don’t, because in LA we all defend our own theories. WE didn’t treat them harshly, it’s just that we treat each other like that, and we co-exist peacefully.

Anyway, I am not posting anymore here, this is just an exception. If you want to come to hunt me and kill me, you know where I am, in LA.

Nothing more, and greetings to you all, specially to mohammedali.
Arturo Blázquez Navarro
Staff Writer of Zelda Legends

From the discussion I've had over on LA, the main difference between the two schools of thought is that LA is less strict as to how information can be proved or disproved. The term "common sense" is very much opinionated as I pointed out to them earlier but they just don't see it that way. I think as long as all the elements of context are taken into perspective, then ZU's school is better able to ground facts than LA.

I would disagree. With both Raian and Arturo.

The common trait, as I see it, amongst the LA theorists is an absolute refusal to accept contradcitions. Whether they be certain, canonically enforced contradictions or just illogical points in general. This leads to either a quasi-nhilism (fyxe) or faith in a higher authority such as Aonuma to put things right (Jumbie, Arturo)

In contrast, the theorists of ZU will pueposely ignore contradictions in order to arrive at a well supported timeline (disregarding "minor" illogical points such as the unflooding and the Seal War). Because these connection are never perfect, this leads to either faith in a higher authority to fill in the gaps (LoZH), or the ability to turn a blind eye to to lack of knowledge (ZG21).

The difference, then, is the way the developers are approached. Jumbie, Arturo, and there kin expect Aonuma to create a perfect world, totally free from contradiction. Our local members expect Aonuma to steamroll over past mistakes and establish big shiny connections.

Look at LoZH's big article on Aonuma (the one he wrote when he first came back this fall) and you will see that he expects the man to repair the past.

Look at Jumbi and Arturo's last timeline article, and you will see that they beleive that, thanks to Aounuma, the past most certainly does not need repairing.

Its a philosophy difference, and I firmly place ZG21 (who shirks from the mention of SW discussion) on the complete opposite end of the spectrum from Artruro. I can't see yall ever getting along, whatever the need...

Lol, nice analogy PIE!

Yeah, we do tend to overlook certain problems if we feel that they don't matter too much. Then again, sometimes there are reasons to ignore certain points. It depends on the analysis of context, as I always say.

On the subject of differing philosophies between communities, I would like to take this opportunity to share my take on this.

I have traveled through various Zelda forums, and seen first-hand the ways and customs of each. And the differences stem mostly from the way people participate, and from the format of discussion taken. From what I've seen, LA is perhaps the most individualistic and diverse community, with most people having their own theory and personal take on the timeline. Though they do discuss universal issues, I've noticed much of the debating centers upon everyone defending their timeline, and posting evidence to show why their theory is valid in the face of all others. Though this method makes for unique discussions, it is hardly ideal when it comes to searching out the truth, impossible as it may be to reach it. It is akin to a competition, if you will. Thus, in my view, finding the best theory in LA is like finding the strongest man through a free-for-all brawl, in which the last man standing is the strongest. In this way, the best theory is the one that is best-defended, even if, to us, there are as-of-yet irreparable holes in it.

ZU stands at the opposite end of the sepctrum in methodology. Here, people are far more united under a well-documented theory, enforced by the Wise Men. As a result, most discussion here centers upon universal concepts, seeing as there's little reason to debate things like single vs. double, and other controversial subjects. However, this amounts to what I believe is a very simple set of discussions that try not to stray too far from what is considered established truth. This makes for cleaner and eaiser debate, but also less variety and individual takes on concepts.

If I had to choose the ideal philosophy, I would say it would be something akin to how we did things back at GameFAQs. Evil Tribe jokes and double timeline bias aside, I found the philosophy at GameFAQs to be a nice balance between LA and ZU. Everyone had their own take on the timeline, but despite us being mostly united under the belief of a double timeline, many of us disagreed on its implementation and the details behind it. As a result, most of us worked together to find the real answer, to determine whether or not our beliefs were correct, or if another idea was perhaps better. We had the variety of LA and the team effort of ZU, in a nutshell. I admit at first we were not very inviting of non-double timeline ideas, but in the end, we became more acceptant, something that is readily apparent in the newest timeline FAQ at GameFAQs from my buddy TE9. Too bad discussion went the way of the dodo back there...

These are my personal views. Take them as you will.

What is correct is that time ago, MasterofALttP and HeroofTime5 came to us asking for our best timeliner. That is an alien, quasi-theological concept for us. I understand you have a hierarchy, but we don’t, because in LA we all defend our own theories. WE didn’t treat them harshly, it’s just that we treat each other like that, and we co-exist peacefully.

Man they haven't forgotten me or that incident.

Anyways the only probably I see with LA is that they don't welcome change or new ideas. Instead they tend to stay by their old concepts.

Originally Posted by HeroOfTime5

Anyways the only probably I see with LA is that they don't welcome change or new ideas. Instead they tend to stay by their old concepts.

The same could be said of this and many other communities.

Originally Posted by DarkenZero24

The same could be said of this and many other communities.

Maybe this only applies to me, but I think Raian would disagree. He and I have made substantial progress since he joined and since we've discussed things one-on-one.

Indeed, you two have found plenty of things together. But as a whole, most communities, including this one, are guilty of being resistant to change and new ideas. Whether or not change actually has happened is irrelevant. The point is, there is always resistance. I went through this back at GameFAQs. We discussed many concepts between us, and came up with lots of things, but when you and MoALttP came, we borderline shunned your ideas. I know I did. Eventually we did warm up more to you guys, but we resistend nonetheless, so we are guilty of this as well.

I guess the general rule is that most communities will shy away from ideas they don't understand or that they haven't been exposed to. We here are definitely guilty of this as well; typically, though, if it can be heavily supported, we'll accept new ideas. For example we used to think that Link and Zelda found a new land, then someone brought up the Deku Tree quote about creating a larger island to connect the smaller ones. We accepted this idea in a heartbeat.

And that's precisely why you won't see me or TE9 attacking the United Wise Men's timeline anymore. You have all made your case, and you have proven that the theory works very well, and we now accept it as a possibility. Whether we prefer it over our own take of events is another matter, but that is irrelevant. It works, it's well-supported, and we like what we see. Despite all the resistance, we changed our approach to the Single timeline in the end.

I actually understand why some people prefer a DT, now, so I've sort of molded my own view of the DT sort of like you have molded your view of the ST. I understand that, at least for now, there's no definite reason to place TWW and ALttP on the same timeline, either, since TWW would essentially just fill the gap between OoT and ALttP anyway, and doesn't add to ALttP (and vice-versa, ALttP contributes nothing to TWW). I also see that placing MM on a separate timeline, at least, for the time being, doesn't cause any problems with the timeline (although TP may change this, if Link is descended from the HoT).

I'm glad to hear you're not the only one that has reached a newfound tolerance of other points of view. Let us take this mutual understanding of our differences, and pray we can work together more in the future toward our goal of finding the truth, no matter how far off that day may be. However, I'm waiting until I beat TP to get back to hardcore theorizing, so that won't happen for a while. Still, it's good to hear this from you. All of a sudden, I don't feel so out of place.

I'm late to rejoin the discussion but I do have something to say. As it has been said before, people who try to defend their own individual timelines end up being resistant to new ideas and concepts. I think this is where ZU has the edge over other boards like LA. Instead of trying to create our own puzzles and show why they are better than others, we all work with the same puzzle and try to make the pieces fit. This means that even with debates, such as me and LionHarted, the answer never has to impact the whole timeline. If nothing is resolved, we leave it and look at something else.

When on GF, I remember liking the idea of "my own timeline" and using it to end the contradictions that didn't fit with the timeline as I saw it. But that was the case with everyone. There was jhurvid's timeline, TEI's timeline, DP's timeline and PIE's timeline. The main positive of this was to understand how the ST and DT related to each other and the ways they could be conceived, but nothing was ever really concluded. In short, I think timeline discussion has evolved so that theorists are more united in what is believed in or accepted. If we can get LA to start uniting their ideas as we have, even under a double timeline, discussion would be much easier.

I have a couple of things to say to Arturo. First, I did not go to LA to teach, I went there to discuss, so I'll thank you to stop thinking that you know what I am doing better than I do. LA is one of the most open places there is? Jeez, you can't have been to many places. When I went there, I was greeted by hostile forces known as Jumbie and Fyxe. I did not think I was superior to any of you (apart from idiots called Jumbie and Fyxe), so again, stop thinking that you know what I do and think better than I do.

And no, I don't think the Wise Men's timeline is 100% proven, so I am not an idiot, but you are, for two reasons:

1) You called me and idiot for something I have not done.
2) You constantly seem to think that you know what I do and think better than I do.

I'm me, your not, so accept it, stop thinking that you know what I do and think better than I do, and stop making up lies.


Lex, tell that to Arturo.

Not a delegate, are we?

Originally Posted by Arturo

I don’t usually take conclusions out of thin air. Before I wrote that letter, I investigated about you. And here is what I found.

“First, I did not go to LA to teach, I went there to discuss, so I'll thank you to stop thinking that you know what I am doing better than I do.”

You said here at ZU:

“A forum that, every offence to them, is in desperate need of some kind of intelligance [sic] Seriously, I've tried putting up with it and explaining how and why they are wrong, but it just goes in one ear and out the other. They can't accept anything that threatens their point of view as true, and I'm honestly thinking of resigning from there. Nothing gets through to them.”

“LA is one of the most open places there is? Jeez, you can't have been to many places.”

I couldn’t have said it better than DarkenZero21:

“From what I've seen, LA is perhaps the most individualistic and diverse community, with most people having their own theory and personal take on the timeline.”

We all believe different things. That what I mean as open.

“When I went there, I was greeted by hostile forces known as Jumbie and Fyxe.”

Hostile forces? Accept it, this is not Age of Empires.

“I did not think I was superior to any of you (apart from idiots called Jumbie and Fyxe), so again, stop thinking that you know what I do and think better than I do.”

“Legends Alliance, an interesting forum filled with a bunch of idiots that can't tell their fingers from their toes. A forum that, every offence to them, is in desperate need of some kind of intelligance. Seriously, I've tried putting up with it and explaining how and why they are wrong, but it just goes in one ear and out the other. They can't accept anything that threatens their point of view as true, and I'm honestly thinking of resigning from there. Nothing gets through to them. They're like sheep: when one of them does it, they all do it, then won't listen to anything else.”

And you judge Jumbie and Fyxe just for less than 10 posts? That fits your definition of n00b clearly “n00b - someone who has little, if any, knowledge of what they're talking about”. Fyxe is a really intelligent Theorist, I have discussed and argued with her many times, and know her much better than you. And Jumbie is the person with whom I agree in most things, a collaborator of me and a personal friend. Their only defect is that they are sometimes too sarcastic, even for me. But that doesn’t make you an idiot. And, By the way, if there can’t be Knights in FSA because they died before AlttP, why are there in OoS?

“And no, I don't think the Wise Men's timeline is 100% proven,”

“And the reason some people say that (even though I've NEVER heard of anyone saying such a thing) is because we Wise Men have proven our points time and time again”

“1) You called me and idiot for something I have not done.”

I said:

“He is worse, because he just judges what he doesn’t know.”

You said:

“I'd advise staying away from there though. All the people on there are a bunch of ignorant n00bs who either think that TMC is first, OoT has a split ending, or both. They all refuse t