Why TWW is important for connecting OoT to ALTTP.

This topic has been up on Legends Alliance for quite a while, but I've decided to paste it here rather than link it for everyone who asks. Enjoy!

One thing I have read about perception of the timeline is that TWW is incompatible with ALTTP because both games follow as sequels to OoT but apparently TWW can't be a prequel to ALTTP. Not only will I explain why this is wrong but also to explain why the OoT-ALTTP connection is totally inconsistent without TWW.

It all begins with a simple question. Who knows the location of the Triforce in OoT? This is simple; the Royal Family have handed this knowledge down from generation to generation.

Originally Posted by OoT

I'm going to tell you the secret of the Sacred Realm that has been passed down by the Royal Family of Hyrule. Please keep this a secret from everyone... [...] That's right... The Temple of Time is the entrance through which you can enter the Sacred Realm from our world. But the entrance is sealed with a stone wall called the Door of Time. And, in order to open the door, it is said that you need to collect three Spiritual Stones. And another thing you need...is the treasure that the Royal Family keeps along with this legend... The Ocarina of Time!

So do the Royal Family maintain this knowledge even towards ALTTP? Nope.

Originally Posted by ALTTP

...the Triforce grants the wish of the one who touched it. As long as that person is alive... That, surely, is why it was placed in the sacred land, and its location passed down only among those chosen. However, it looks as though that was interrupted somewhere... Then, the one who again discovered the sacred land was the thief called Ganondorf.

So in order for OoT to lead into ALTTP, we need an event that can establish the loss of the knowledge of the Sacred Realm. Without speculation, we have such an event; TWW's Great Flood. The Great Flood was the event that "interrupted" the knowledge of the location of the Sacred Realm that had been handed down by Hyrule's Royal Family. Of course, there is evidence that the Great Flood was responsible for much more than this.

Originally Posted by SW

Hyrule, where many Hylian relics have been left, is an area very much tied to myth. One such example is an old saying about the Triforce. "The golden power lies somewhere descended from the heavens. He who claims it as his own shall have their desires granted by the gods." The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm. Many reports began to surface; lying beneath the relics of the desert, inside the graves of the race of people in the high mountains, but no one ever found it.

The general implication from this text is that Hylian civilisation had died out long before the events of the SW, leaving only relics and myths to explain Hyrule's history. The term "golden power" for example was never used by the people in OoT. In fact, the true name of the Triforce was only revealed in ALTTP when the Sages' Seal was broken and the transformation of the Sacred Realm by Ganon had been revealed to all. Furthermore, the people in OoT did not need to search all of Hyrule for the entrance to the Sacred Realm because legends of the entrance had indeed passed to them.

Originally Posted by OoT

Do you know about the Temple of Time that we have in the northeast part of town? Legends say that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm... Did you know that?

Legends say that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm...

Then there is Hyrule's geography. TWW's Great Deku Tree explains to us how the land of Hyrule can be raised up from below the waves by connecting all the islands as one where human civilisation can rebuild itself.

Originally Posted by TWW

Every year after the Koroks perform this ceremony, they fly off to the distant islands on the sea and plant my seeds in the hopes that new forests will grow. Forests hold great power--they can change one tiny island into a much larger island. Soon, a day will come when all the islands are one, connected by earth and grove. And the people who live on that great island will be able to join hands and, together, create a better world. Such is my dream. ...But the one you are chasing is trying to prevent that dream from ever coming to pass.

Link... Already, your fate is tied to the fate of this world. You must proceed with great care.

Ganondorf appears to confirm this when he tells us that the Gods intentionally left people to awaken Hyrule (not find a new land).

Originally Posted by TWW

What did the King of Hyrule say? ...That the gods sealed Hyrule away? And they left behind people who would one day awaken Hyrule?!

Now in the backdrop of the Palace of Winds in TMC, we can see two islands below.



This begins a definite continuity that shows Hyrule physically expanding from below the Great Sea. As time goes by, Hyrule expands and connects with other islands to form larger islands.

-TMC shows Hyrule as a small area of land, with other islands around it.
-FSA shows Hyrule as a larger island.
-ALTTP shows Hyrule as FSA's map but with mountains instead of sea borders.
-AoL shows Hyrule as part of a much larger land-mass, (unofficially called Calatia).

Finally, there is the FS saga itself. Have you ever wondered why the Triforce or the Sacred Realm have never enterred the storylines of the games; why Vaati and Ganon never sought to take the ultimate power when they had the opportunity to? This distinctive detail connects with the fact that after the Great Flood, no one knew where it was or or exactly what it was. The SW scripts labels the finding of the Triforce as an accident; the Sacred Realm was stumbled upon by Ganondorf and his group of thieves. After this event, such understandings became known to the Sages and the Royal Family. This is not to suggest that FSA leads into ALTTP, because I don't think it does. However, the events are explainable when positioned between TWW and ALTTP.

I'll definitely be able to use some of that in the guide. It's a veritable little gold mine. The trick is figuring out where to put it lol.

I do have one question though. You mentioned that the Triforce and the Sacred Realm are never mentioned in the individual storylines of the FS games. Well, the Lightforce is, in TMC. I've always thought that it was a completely different relic that the Triforce, or ToW; what do you think?

Originally Posted by TripleEspresso9

I'll definitely be able to use some of that in the guide. It's a veritable little gold mine. The trick is figuring out where to put it lol.

I do have one question though. You mentioned that the Triforce and the Sacred Realm are never mentioned in the individual storylines of the FS games. Well, the Lightforce is, in TMC. I've always thought that it was a completely different relic that the Triforce, or ToW; what do you think?

The Light Force is referred to as "limitless magical power" and that is pretty much all it is. Like the wishing cap, it grants power to the holder, no matter whether that holder uses it for good or evil. Although some people like to speculate that it is the "fourth Triforce piece", this would just contradict the balance that the three pieces represent in the rest of the timeline. It is much more likely a Minish creation than a creation of the Gods, since it was given to humans with the Picori Blade that was definitely forged by the Minish.

As for it's name, it can be inferred that because Zelda was the one who wielded it against the monsters, along with the Hero and the Picori Blade, that her own light which was given power by the Light Force was attritibuted to the Light Force itself, giving it the title.

So basically you think it's something entirely different, right?

Originally Posted by TripleEspresso9

So basically you think it's something entirely different, right?

I think the Light Force is a TMC-only concept, like the Minish and the Wishing Cap. It is never directly connected to any other objects or events in the timeline.

Do you think, for the ease of me writing the guide, you could write all that in a Word Document and PM it to me or something? Cuz the stuff in quote boxes shows up as images, and its a huge headache to get it to fit with the rest of the document. And then I'll just say, in the guide, which game you got the quotes from, and say to look it up in a text dump if you think you have to.

Sure. I'll delete the beginning brackets of each quote and bold sentence to stop the PM from putting them as quotes/bold points.

I suppose this is a great explanation for what it's supposed to do. You always knew how to cover all your bases, jhurvid (Can I keep calling you jhurvid? I'm too used to it XD).

Even so, I see this as more of a supporting point for the Single Timeline more than anything. It doesn't prove it or disprove other theories beyond a shadow of a doubt. It just shows you put more value on what you think is the developers making an effort to make sense of past plot-holes through newer games. Like I said, it works, but it's hardly indicative of what the developers are doing, and I doubt we'll know where they're going with the timeline until we finish TP and PH. But that's my personal opinion.

btw, in case you were wondering where I was all this time, I was taking a break from theorizing due to college, work, and many other things. That, and I decided it's not worth discussing old issues now that TP is about to come out. So, expect to see me again after I beat it XD

DP (I'm used to that lol) what did you think of the guide? Did you finish reading it yet?

Yeah, I read the whole thing. You just need to tighten up the SW section with the info I provided, but otherwise, it's pretty solid all-around.

I did do that lol. I just can't post it until Lex says so. And he hasn't been here or on GF at all today. *sigh*

Yeah, sorry. My internet was dead yesterday.

Originally Posted by Raian

The general implication from this text is that Hylian civilisation had died out long before the events of the SW, leaving only relics and myths as to explain Hyrule's history.

Actually, the implication I got is that the Seal War is one of the "myths" that the relics of the Hylian people, such as the Master Sword, are tied to.

Originally Posted by Raian

The term "golden power" for example was never used by the people in OoT. In fact, the true name of the Triforce was only revealed in ALTTP when the Sages' Seal was broken and the transformation of the Sacred Realm by Ganon had been revealed to all.

Again, not so. The term is used in TWW.

Originally Posted by Raian

Furthermore, the people in OoT did not need to search all of Hyrule for the entrance to the Sacred Realm because legends of the entrance had indeed passed to them.

But Ganondorf did.

Originally Posted by Deku Tree

This evil man ceaselessly uses his vile, sorcerous powers in his search for the Sacred Realm that is connected to Hyrule... For it is in that Sacred Realm that one will find the divine relic, the Triforce, which contains the essence of the gods...

Compared to--

Originally Posted by ALttP Manual

"The golden power lies somewhere descended from the heavens. He who claims it as his own shall have their desires granted by the gods." The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Actually, the implication I got is that the Seal War is one of the "myths" that the relics of the Hylian people, such as the Master Sword, are tied to.

The order of events in ALTTP's manual.

-Triforce & Hylians
-Hylian relics and search for the Sacred Realm
-Seal War
-Agahnim

Again, not so. The term is used in TWW.

When people knew the name "Triforce", the term "golden power" was not in use.

But Ganondorf did.

He searched for the Sacred Realm itself, not the entrance to the Sacred Realm, which everyone in OoT had worked out and there was even instructions within the Temple of Time. People in ALTTP's Manual did not know where the entrance to the Sacred Realm was, which is why they searched all over Hyrule looking for it.

(I would quote that they were looking for the entrance in the Manual story but I can't get into zeldalegends. Is anyone else having problems?)

Originally Posted by Raian

-Triforce & Hylians
-Hylian relics and search for the Sacred Realm
-Seal War
-Agahnim

The titles, in order:

• The Tale: "A History of Hyrule" (Creation Story)
• The Sacred Realm (Relics/Ruins of the Hylian People, the search for the Sacred Realm)
• The Seal War
• The Priest

What interests me most is that there is no transition between the mentioning of ancient myths associated with the Sacred Realm and the people's search for the Sacred Realm. This seems to me to suggest that the search is included in these myths. The fact that the two are included in the same section titled "the Sacred Realm", seems to support this.

Also, the idea that the location was lost to the Royal Family before the Seal War was fabricated by NoA, and is not even remotely implied in the Seal War myth itself.

Originally Posted by Raian

When people knew the name "Triforce", the term "golden power" was not in use.

Not en masse, but it was, indeed, in use, because it appears in the legends.

Originally Posted by Raian

He searched for the Sacred Realm itself, not the entrance to the Sacred Realm, which everyone in OoT had worked out and there was even instructions within the Temple of Time. People in ALTTP's Manual did not know where the entrance to the Sacred Realm was, which is why they searched all over Hyrule looking for it.

What makes you think Ganondorf knows the entrance to the Sacred Realm is in the Temple of Time? The Temple of Time itself does not reveal that the gateway to the Realm is locked within. Remember, he has to follow you there in order to find it:

Originally Posted by Ganondorf

You have led me to the gates of the Sacred Realm...
Yes, I owe it all to you, kid!

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

The titles, in order:

• The Tale: "A History of Hyrule" (Creation Story)
• The Sacred Realm (Relics/Ruins of the Hylian People, the search for the Sacred Realm)
• The Seal War
• The Priest

What interests me most is that there is no transition between the mentioning of ancient myths associated with the Sacred Realm and the people's search for the Sacred Realm. This seems to me to suggest that the search is included in these myths. The fact that the two are included in the same section titled "the Sacred Realm", seems to support this.

I don't understand what you mean (do you have a working link to the SW script btw?). In the History of Hyrule we are told of the Sacred Realm, Triforce and the Hylians who passed down these legends to their descendants. The Sacred Realm sections picks up with the descendants looking for the entrance to the Sacred Realm as told by the relics. Then Ganondorf found it by accident.

Also, the idea that the location was lost to the Royal Family before the Seal War was fabricated by NoA, and is not even remotely implied in the Seal War myth itself.

Well I wouldn't know since I don't read the NOA translation anymore. The Japanese ALTTP script tells us that the location of the Sacred Realm handed down by the "chosen people" was lost before Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm.

Not en masse, but it was, indeed, in use, because it appears in the legends.

The legend describes the events of OoT from a perspective after the Great Flood had occurred because it refers to Hyrule as "once there was a kingdom...".

What makes you think Ganondorf knows the entrance to the Sacred Realm is in the Temple of Time? The Temple of Time itself does not reveal that the gateway to the Realm is locked within. Remember, he has to follow you there in order to find it:

If that was true, he wouldn't be searching for the keys to the Temple of Time before he met Link.

Originally Posted by Raian

I don't understand what you mean (do you have a working link to the SW script btw?). In the History of Hyrule we are told of the Sacred Realm, Triforce and the Hylians who passed down these legends to their descendants. The Sacred Realm sections picks up with the descendants looking for the entrance to the Sacred Realm as told by the relics. Then Ganondorf found it by accident.

Ganondorf "opened" it "by chance."

And the "descendants" do not look for the entrance. That was added by you.

Originally Posted by Raian

Well I wouldn't know since I don't read the NOA translation anymore. The Japanese ALTTP script tells us that the location of the Sacred Realm handed down by the "chosen people" was lost before Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm.

Before Ganondorf "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm, you mean. The idea that the Seal War represents this rediscovery is a leap of faith, good sir.

Originally Posted by Raian

The legend describes the events of OoT from a perspective after the Great Flood had occurred because it refers to Hyrule as "once there was a kingdom...".

The same sort of rhetoric, again, is used in the intro to ALttP:

Originally Posted by ALttP

Long ago, surrounded by mountains and forests, the beauteous land of Hyrule... It was said that somewhere in this region was gold possessing the powers of omnipotentence and omniscience.

Originally Posted by Raian

If that was true, he wouldn't be searching for the keys to the Temple of Time before he met Link.

Remember how "reports began to surface" about the location of the entrance? "Many reports began to surface; lying beneath the relics of the desert, inside the graves of the race of people in the high mountains, but no one ever found it." This is the same diction used to describe the rumors that the entrance is housed within the Temple of Time in the Japanese version. "There are reports that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm." If he had heard these 'reports', he wouldn't know that the entrance is there; he would be going on a hunch, like the search for the Realm had progressed up until that point.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

And the "descendants" do not look for the entrance. That was added by you.

The History of Hyrule section says that they left myths for their descendants. The Sacred Realm section begins with people reading "Hylian relics" and one of these myths was of the "golden power". The inference speaks for itself.

Before Ganondorf "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm, you mean. The idea that the Seal War represents this rediscovery is a leap of faith, good sir.

Since the Royal Family knew where the Sacred Realm was before Ganondorf discovered it in OoT, this tells us the quote must be referring to the rediscovery.

The same sort of rhetoric, again, is used in the intro to ALttP:

The term "golden power" is used in places after the knowledge of the Triforce was interrupted by the Great Flood, not during OoT itself.

Remember how "reports began to surface" about the location of the entrance? "Many reports began to surface; lying beneath the relics of the desert, inside the graves of the race of people in the high mountains, but no one ever found it." This is the same diction used to describe the rumors that the entrance is housed within the Temple of Time in the Japanese version. "There are reports that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm." If he had heard these 'reports', he wouldn't know that the entrance is there; he would be going on a hunch, like the search for the Realm had progressed up until that point.

The fact that he was willing to curse the Deku Tree and break his well-built trust with the Hylians suggests to me that he knew exactly where it was, not just off a hunch.

Originally Posted by Raian

The History of Hyrule section says that they left myths for their descendants. The Sacred Realm section begins with people reading "Hylian relics" and one of these myths was of the "golden power". The inference speaks for itself.

They passed on stories of their magic and powers to their descendants. Such as, for instance, the idea that they have long ears in order to hear the voices of the gods. Also, the Sacred Realm section begins by talking about "old traditions associated with the Triforce", mentions the old saying, then goes on to say that people searched for that entrance (implying that they are searching in response to said 'old saying', which suggests to me that the bitter struggle to find the entrance took place alongside these old myths.

Originally Posted by Raian

Since the Royal Family knew where the Sacred Realm was before Ganondorf discovered it in OoT, this tells us the quote must be referring to the rediscovery.

Why?

Originally Posted by Raian

The term "golden power" is used in places after the knowledge of the Triforce was interrupted by the Great Flood, not during OoT itself.

We'll see if it's used in TP.

Originally Posted by Raian

The fact that he was willing to curse the Deku Tree and break his well-built trust with the Hylians suggests to me that he knew exactly where it was, not just off a hunch.

Originally Posted by ALttP Manual

Longing soon became greed, and it was not uncommon for blood to be spilt for certain information.

Lex, since you're up and about, I'll just ask you in this thread. Can I, as long as I give credit to you and DP, use ALttP/TWW related arguments thru Could TP bring a solution? as the Seal War section for the GF guide?

Absolutely, TE9. Like I said, the ZeldaWiki pretty much has your purposes filled, to an extent. It wouldn't be a bad idea to turn the two--the Wiki and your timeline FAQ, into affiliated articles, now that I get to thinking about it.