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  #81 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 01:21 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
SNabooru has her devout followers and Ganondorf has his devout followers. When Twinrova brainwashed Nabooru, she openly allied with Ganondorf and the Gerudo allied themselves as well. The fact that there are two camps suggests that the Gerudo are not all devout worshippers of Ganondorf; many follow Nabooru's example.
There are not two camps. Nabooru is a "lone wolf thief", therefore she works alone. Before she was brainwashed by Twinrova, she stood for chivalry. After she was brainwashed by Twinrova, she became Ganondorf's second-in-command, and those beneath her "stood for cruelty and brutality."

The presupposition is that all Gerudo served Ganondorf (as would be expected of the man revered by them as a god), and Nabooru was the exception before she was brainwashed.
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For most examples, Zelda and the Maidens serve a purpose for Ganon that requires they live.
Not really. All Ganon requires from Zelda is the Triforce, and he requires is that the seal be broken. Why should either of these cases require that Zelda/Maidens be kept alive?
Quote:
The fact is the term "boyfriends" has two different meanings depending on the age of the player who reads it. As a child, a "boyfriend" is associated with love because this is what is repeated on television and in films.
So, since the target audience is, according to you, children, we can't assume at all that Hylians mate with Gerudo.
Quote:
As an adult, a "boyfriend" possesses the sexual connotations as well as the connotations of love. The concept of a short-term relationship is an adult concept so when read from an adult perspective implies sex due to the complexities of Gerudo culture.
And now you're changing your tune. If meaning can be drawn from an adult perspective, none of your silly rules about implications of harems, polygamy, polygyny, or incest being inappropriate for children apply.
Quote:
Where? He is implied to be a creature of Shadow.
Ganon, King of Darkness.
Onox, General of Darkness.

That, and have you looked at him? He bears the Gerudo symbol right on his chest.


Quote:
With such an unnatural birthing system, I admittedly cannot disprove that the Gerudo won't give birth to healthy babies despite incest.
It's not unnatural. It happens all the time. Of course, even assuming this is a valid argument against it, it's just as unnatural that you expect "Gerudo" children to be born from enough Hylian-Gerudo unions so as to populate their race when 1) most of the Gerudo seem to be concentrated at the Fortress, where no males but Ganondorf are supposed to enter, and 2) all the Gerudo traits (red hair, red skin, etc.) are recessive. It's absolutely preposterous.
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Last Edited by LegendofLex; 11-05-2006 at 01:34 PM. Reason:
  #82 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 01:39 PM
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
All the Gerudo traits (red hair, red skin, etc.) are recessive. It's absolutely preposterous.
I feel I may as well offer a small correction. The Gerudo have dark tan skin, which is not recessive.
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  #83 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 02:08 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
There are not two camps. Nabooru is a "lone wolf thief", therefore she works alone. Before she was brainwashed by Twinrova, she stood for chivalry. After she was brainwashed by Twinrova, she became Ganondorf's second-in-command, and those beneath her "stood for cruelty and brutality."
Actually, you're correct on that point. However, we know from FSA that the Gerudo, as an honourable tribe, are not devoted to Ganondorf's evil heart and mind. But then there is evidence that the Gerudo tribe are also being brainwashed by Twinrova in OoT; not just Nabooru (quote below). This would establish how Ganondorf has "followers" in Child OoT and then control of the entire tribe in Adult OoT. Through Twinrova, who serve the powers of darkness, the Gerudo tribe are being brainwashed into supporting Ganondorf where they normally would not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OoT
The leader of the gang of thieves is Nabooru. She is experimenting with brainwashing many people at the ruins in the desert.
Quote:
The presupposition is that all Gerudo served Ganondorf (as would be expected of the man revered by them as a god), and Nabooru was the exception before she was brainwashed.
According to tradition, the Gerudo must serve the Gerudo male as their king and worship him. But since Nabooru commands almost just as much respect from the Gerudo as Ganondorf, she should still be able to influence them against Ganondorf's evil ways.

Quote:
Not really. All Ganon requires from Zelda is the Triforce, and he requires is that the seal be broken. Why should either of these cases require that Zelda/Maidens be kept alive?
Until Ganon has finished with his uses for them, he needs them alive. But since Ganondorf never completes those uses (except for ALTTP), he never kills them.

Quote:
So, since the target audience is, according to you, children, we can't assume at all that Hylians mate with Gerudo.
Yes we can, because the connotations with love are totally inconsistent with the Gerudo considering them weak and useless. Therefore, we can only apply the adult interpretation of sex because it remains consistent and fulfills a necessity for the Gerudo to procreate.

Quote:
And now you're changing your tune. If meaning can be drawn from an adult perspective, none of your silly rules about implications of harems, polygamy, polygyny, or incest being inappropriate for children apply.
No they don't. Why? Because what you argue is still speculation, not interpretation.

Quote:
Ganon, King of Darkness.
Onox, General of Darkness.
Wow, you found a connection about DARKNESS!

Quote:
That, and have you looked at him? He bears the Gerudo symbol right on his chest.
He also looks identical to an Iron Knuckle in OoT. If he's a creature of darkness who was conjured from the Dark World by the Gerudo witches Twinrova, then that does not mean he is a Gerudo himself, just a pawn for Twinrova.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OoS
Gwah hah hah! I was summoned from the Dark Realm by Twinrova. See my
true form! Feel the might of a dark dragon!
So Onox's true form is a dark dragon, not a Gerudo. Onox is a creature of darkness. It could be speculated that the armour was created by Twinrova to house the true form of Onox and make him look human.

Quote:
It's not unnatural. It happens all the time. Of course, even assuming this is a valid argument against it, it's just as unnatural that you expect "Gerudo" children to be born from enough Hylian-Gerudo unions so as to populate their race when 1) most of the Gerudo seem to be concentrated at the Fortress, where no males but Ganondorf are supposed to enter, and 2) all the Gerudo traits (red hair, red skin, etc.) are recessive. It's absolutely preposterous.
Incest is natural and it happens all the time!? What planet are you from, LionHarted?

1) Outsiders aren't allowed within Gerudo Fortress so the Gerudo leave the Fortress to find mates (like the Amazons).
2) You still haven't proved that the Gerudo traits are recessive.
Last Edited by Raian; 11-05-2006 at 06:20 PM. Reason:
  #84 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 08:01 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic-Tech View Post
I feel I may as well offer a small correction. The Gerudo have dark tan skin, which is not recessive.
It's not tan, it's red, and comes from the same pigment found in red hair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
However, we know from FSA that the Gerudo, as an honourable tribe, are not devoted to Ganondorf's evil heart and mind.
So we can guess that, from OoT onward, they ceased to be under Ganondorf's control, and were instead directed by a new leader, who took them down Nabooru's path of chivalry--possibly even Nabooru herself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
This would establish how Ganondorf has "followers" in Child OoT and then control of the entire tribe in Adult OoT. Through Twinrova, who serve the powers of darkness, the Gerudo tribe are being brainwashed into supporting Ganondorf where they normally would not.
The people being brainwashed are most likely not Gerudo. Remember, when Nabooru was a "lone wolf", she acted chivalrously. This seems to suggest that she was the only Gerudo to dissent against Ganondorf's cruel regime--the "lone wolf". Of course, looking at the Seal War text (I know you don't agree with this view, but hear me out), it's more than just the Gerudo that are being enveloped by the power of darkness. It's "greedy persons":
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seal War Text
People of greed were herded and consumed by this power, and disappeared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
But since Nabooru commands almost just as much respect from the Gerudo as Ganondorf, she should still be able to influence them against Ganondorf's evil ways.
There is no evidence that Nabooru commanded any respect among Gerudo until she became Ganondorf's second-in-command. Remember, she was a dissenter until that point. All the evidence that Nabooru commands respect appears in the future only, after she has been brainwashed to do Ganondorf's bidding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Until Ganon has finished with his uses for them, he needs them alive. But since Ganondorf never completes those uses (except for ALTTP), he never kills them.
In OoT, Zelda was being used as bait. That was all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
No they don't. Why? Because what you argue is still speculation, not interpretation.
Everything we're discussing here is speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
If he's a creature of darkness who was conjured from the Dark World by the Gerudo witches Twinrova, then that does not mean he is a Gerudo himself, just a pawn for Twinrova.
"Creature of darkness" is a term you seem to have fabricated, since it doesn't appear anywhere in the Oracle text.

Also, the dragon form seems to be Onox's "true form" in the same way that the pig is Ganon's "true form." His human form is still his natural form; the dragon form is simply his evil spirit incarnated through the power of darkness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
1) Outsiders aren't allowed within Gerudo Fortress so the Gerudo leave the Fortress to find mates (like the Amazons).
Speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
2) You still haven't proved that the Gerudo traits are recessive.
Yes, I have. You promptly ignored me.
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  #85 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 08:58 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
The people being brainwashed are most likely not Gerudo. Remember, when Nabooru was a "lone wolf", she acted chivalrously. This seems to suggest that she was the only Gerudo to dissent against Ganondorf's cruel regime--the "lone wolf". Of course, looking at the Seal War text (I know you don't agree with this view, but hear me out), it's more than just the Gerudo that are being enveloped by the power of darkness. It's "greedy persons":
The fact that Ganondorf had "followers" that killed people in Child OoT implies that some Gerudo had been brainwashed to do his evil bidding for him before Nabooru. This is not against the concept that people outside were also brainwashed.

Quote:
In OoT, Zelda was being used as bait. That was all.
Exactly. Ganondorf needed Zelda alive to achieve a goal. When this goal was achieved, Zelda had no use so she would have been killed had Link not defeated Ganon beforehand.

Quote:
Everything we're discussing here is speculation.
Thus we ask the question, how is speculation justified? Can we assume that 2+2=4 if we are presented with the informaton that it is between 3 and 5? The term "boyfriends", from an adult perspective, can have sexual connotations as well as the emotional connotations that we see from the child perspective. If we take into account that the Gerudo have no respect for men on principle, then we can eliminate the emotional connotations as a possibility, which leaves us with sex.

The concept that the Gerudos meet Hylians for sex is the interpretation. The use of this to procreate the Gerudo is where speculation comes in. Now, unlike the fact that there is a quote to imply sex with the Hylians, there is no quote that can imply sex with Ganondorf. It may be assumed, but it cannot be an interpretation since there is nothing that can be interpreted. As such, we cannot assume that there is an undercover system for incest because there is nothing to imply sex to begin with. Whether you want to believe it or not is opinion, but opinions simply don't carry weight in an argument.

Quote:
"Creature of darkness" is a term you seem to have fabricated, since it doesn't appear anywhere in the Oracle text.
I am using the term to describe any monster that is formed from the power of darkness. All the moblins for example are creatures of darkness, as is Phantom Ganon, etc.

Quote:
Also, the dragon form seems to be Onox's "true form" in the same way that the pig is Ganon's "true form." His human form is still his natural form; the dragon form is simply his evil spirit incarnated through the power of darkness.
He is a creature that is made from the power of darkness. Therefore, he is not human. When Ganondorf transformed into the Pig in FSA, he was also in the form of darkness; he had lost his humanity. Ganondorf in OoT tried to turn into the form of darkness but failed, which was why he turned back into his original Gerudo form.

Quote:
Speculation.
Speculation and the logical conclusion for why the Gerudo leave Hyrule to find "boyfriends". With no consistent explanation for this other than sex, and the term boyfriends interpreting to mean sex, we can presume that they are referring to sex.

Quote:
Yes, I have. You promptly ignored me.
You are assuming that the genetic traits are recessive within the context of real life, not an unnatural Gerudo race. If the red-haired gene and the black-haired gene come together to create a red-headed child, then this implies that the red-haired gene is dominant. Since we have no examples of Gerudo-Hylians without red hair, we cannot assume that the trait is recessive.
  #86 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 09:30 PM
Chad Chad is a male United States Chad is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
The concept that the Gerudos meet Hylians for sex is the interpretation. The use of this to procreate the Gerudo is where speculation comes in. Now, unlike the fact that there is a quote to imply sex with the Hylians, there is no quote that can imply sex with Ganondorf.
I'm sure that some Gerudos are having sex ith Ganondorf. What other use would an almost all female tribe have with one male? This doesn't mean there is incest going on, though. That would only happen if Ganondorf had sex ith his daughters.

It goes back to my Meerkat society example, where Ganondof may have sex with one or few females, and all others are his kids. Since they go to the Market to look for boyfriends, I can believe that the daughters aren't commiting incest by having sex with Ganondorf.
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  #87 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 09:31 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daphnes
This doesn't mean there is incest going on, though. That would only happen if Ganondorf had sex ith his daughters.
Raian hasn't ever fairly presented my views. Perhaps I ought to do so.

--All-female race, one male born every hundred years.
--"Pure" members of that race can only be born through a union between two members of that race. Given that there's only one male, this means that all offspring from the first generation must stem from that one male.
--This makes all members of that society half-siblings. Which means that any and all intercourse in the next generation will be incestual by default.
--Next generation rolls around, and the cycle repeats itself.

This is how the human had to have reproduced from the very first generation, so it's not "unnatural", as Raian has presented it. It's just that the human race doesn't have the nasty curse of only bearing one male child every century.

Really, it's only as incestual so far as intercourse between any two human beings is incestual. For all intents and purposes, we're all just as related as any two Gerudo are, only with a much more diverse gene pool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
The fact that Ganondorf had "followers" that killed people in Child OoT implies that some Gerudo had been brainwashed to do his evil bidding for him before Nabooru. This is not against the concept that people outside were also brainwashed.
No. It doesn't suggest anything to the end of anyone being brainwashed prior. The Gerudo are supposed to be subordinate to their king. Nabooru is the only rebel thief, hence why she gains the title of "lone wolf." If the Gerudo were brainwashed to do Ganondorf's bidding prior to Child OoT, Nabooru would never have been able to rebel, because she, too, would have been brainwashed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
The term "boyfriends", from an adult perspective, can have sexual connotations as well as the emotional connotations that we see from the child perspective.
And an all-female society with a male at the head can connote a harem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
If we take into account that the Gerudo have no respect for men on principle, then we can eliminate the emotional connotations as a possibility, which leaves us with sex.
If we take into account that the Gerudo have no respect for men on principle, with the exception of Ganondorf, we can deduce that they really mean what they say when they say they think all men are "useless."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
The concept that the Gerudos meet Hylians for sex is the interpretation.
So is the concept that the Gerudos produce Gerudo offspring through the sole male Gerudo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Now, unlike the fact that there is a quote to imply sex with the Hylians, there is no quote that can imply sex with Ganondorf.
So you assume that the single male in an otherwise all-female society doesn't procreate through his subordinates?

Does anyone else see something wrong with this picture?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
I am using the term to describe any monster that is formed from the power of darkness. All the moblins for example are creatures of darkness, as is Phantom Ganon, etc.
Moblins don't come from the Dark World.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
He is a creature that is made from the power of darkness.
Speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
When Ganondorf transformed into the Pig in FSA, he was also in the form of darkness; he had lost his humanity. Ganondorf in OoT tried to turn into the form of darkness but failed, which was why he turned back into his original Gerudo form.
Two assumptions are made here:

1) Ganon couldn't assume a human form after transforming to the pig in FSA;
2) Ganondorf in OoT failed to harness the power of darkness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
With no consistent explanation for this other than sex, and the term boyfriends interpreting to mean sex, we can presume that they are referring to sex.
The logical conclusion for why an all-female race would keep one male and forbid all others from entering their lands is that the culture is a harem culture.

I can play this game all day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
You are assuming that the genetic traits are recessive within the context of real life, not an unnatural Gerudo race.
Better to base one's assumptions in reality than on utter speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
If the red-haired gene and the black-haired gene come together to create a red-headed child, then this implies that the red-haired gene is dominant. Since we have no examples of Gerudo-Hylians without red hair, we cannot assume that the trait is recessive.
Not really.All that suggests is that the fathers possessed at least one red-headed allele and passed it onto the offspring.
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Last Edited by LegendofLex; 11-05-2006 at 09:42 PM. Reason:
  #88 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-06-2006, 05:50 AM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
Raian hasn't ever fairly presented my views. Perhaps I ought to do so.

--All-female race, one male born every hundred years.
--"Pure" members of that race can only be born through a union between two members of that race. Given that there's only one male, this means that all offspring from the first generation must stem from that one male.
--This makes all members of that society half-siblings. Which means that any and all intercourse in the next generation will be incestual by default.
--Next generation rolls around, and the cycle repeats itself.

This is how the human had to have reproduced from the very first generation, so it's not "unnatural", as Raian has presented it. It's just that the human race doesn't have the nasty curse of only bearing one male child every century.

Really, it's only as incestual so far as intercourse between any two human beings is incestual. For all intents and purposes, we're all just as related as any two Gerudo are, only with a much more diverse gene pool.
You're confusing incest with inbreeding. In isolated communities (with the population of small towns), the people can inbreed to keep themselves alive, which is as you say, perfectly natural and harmless. As long as no one has sex with their immediate relations then incest never occurs. The problem with this for OoT is that there is only one Gerudo male born every 100 years, so after making love to one Gerudo, he is then forced to make love to her child as well. In other words, incest is unavoidable in OoT (according to your theory) and unlike inbreeding, it is unnatural.

Quote:
And an all-female society with a male at the head can connote a harem.
It can also connote a step-aerobics class. To establish a proper connection, you need to take into account more than just a basic premise for the objects that you are trying to connect. The harem system is consisted of females "owned" by one male and who take no part in battle. The Gerudo worship Ganondorf but they are not owned by him and likewise they are not submissive like harem girls; they remain warriors.

Quote:
If we take into account that the Gerudo have no respect for men on principle, with the exception of Ganondorf, we can deduce that they really mean what they say when they say they think all men are "useless."
The quote was written in the context of fighting or thieving skills. "I thought all men were useless except Ganondorf, but then you proved me wrong with your thieving skills." So your argument is pointless if you use it out of context.

Quote:
So is the concept that the Gerudos produce Gerudo offspring through the sole male Gerudo.
When there is a quote to interpret, there is an interpretation. When you make up an event without a quote to interpret, it is speculation.

Quote:
So you assume that the single male in an otherwise all-female society doesn't procreate through his subordinates?
I don't assume it without sufficient evidence. If Ganondorf is not sleeping with direct relations then it can be counted as inbreeding. However, he could not populate them through inbreeding because after siring a daughter, he would then have to make love to her in order to have his own granddaughter.

Quote:
Moblins don't come from the Dark World.
Most of the monsters in Hyrule are spawn from the power of darkness. The only monsters that are not shadow-spawn are those who simply state allegiance to Ganon, like the Deku Scrubs, which therefore shows awareness of independence. Also, if you read the scripts of OoT and ALTTP, they say that monsters came into Hyrule from the Evil Realm.

Quote:
Two assumptions are made here:

1) Ganon couldn't assume a human form after transforming to the pig in FSA;
2) Ganondorf in OoT failed to harness the power of darkness.
1) It was stated in FSA that Ganon lost his humanity. This explains simply and clearly why he never took on a human form.
2) Ganondorf could harness the power of darkness in OoT but not enough to tranform himself from the Gerudo form.

Quote:
Better to base one's assumptions in reality than on utter speculation.

Not really. All that suggests is that the fathers possessed at least one red-headed allele and passed it onto the offspring.
Reality holds no argument if it can't be applied to the context of the game itself. If Gerudo birthing was based on reality then this "all-female, one male" rule would not exist. With only two examples of Gerudo-Hylians, both with red hair, the evidence is that red hair is the dominant gene, if the scriptwriters are taking genes into account at all.
Last Edited by Raian; 11-06-2006 at 10:08 AM. Reason:
  #89 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-06-2006, 06:04 AM
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

This is simialr to another thread about a similar thing but i forget waht it was. anyway it is just possible that the female gerudos mate with hyrulians and tka them back to their area and raise them. they would look similar as you cant see their faces
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Old 11-06-2006, 07:55 AM
mohammedali United Kingdom mohammedali is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
You're confusing incest with inbreeding. In small towns, people can inbreed to keep themselves alive. As long as no one has sex with their immediate relations then incest never occurs within isolated communities. The problem with this for OoT is that there is only one Gerudo male every 100 years, so after making love to one Gerudo, he is then forced to make love to her child as well. In other words, incest is unavoidable and unlike inbreeding, it is unnatural.
Firstly, you're forgetting that Gerudos have a much longer life expectancy. We have seen that Gerudo females can live till 400 years from Twinrova's example. Therefore there is no case where a male is 'forced to make love' with their child.
With this in mind, there is every chance that a Gerudo male could have had either one, or a small number of mates, who bore all the children over a hundred years (without him having to sleep with his offsprings). The Gerudos that were not Ganon's 'mates' could have had a child from a Hylian male, meaning that a new Gerudo male could have mates which he is not related to in any way. This would mean any 'blood dilution' would occur every less than every 100 years at least.
Secondly, this dilution may be minimal. If the Gerudo genes are dominant, this dilution may be too small to notice. i.e. if a person is 3/4 Gerudo, then their genetics may be almost identical to a person who is completely Gerudo. This would mean that generation on generation, there is practically no change to the genes of the Gerudos, and no incestious behaviour has occured.

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  #91 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-06-2006, 08:00 AM
Jaime Lannister Swedish Empire Jaime Lannister is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohammedali View Post
Firstly, you're forgetting that Gerudos have a much longer life expectancy. We have seen that Gerudo females can live till 400 years from Twinrova's example. Therefore there is no case where a male is 'forced to make love' with their child.
Twinrova is a witch, I don't think you can include them, since they've lived to the Oracle games.
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Old 11-06-2006, 09:17 AM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaati View Post
Twinrova is a witch, I don't think you can include them, since they've lived to the Oracle games.
Exactly. It can be argued that the powers of darkness create everlasting lifespans, like Vaati who is not Gerudo. Every example of characters in Zelda who have lived more than a century have been connected with darkness.

Also I forget, was it ever explained how the Gerudo were able to repopulate when Ganondorf was sealed away in the Sacred Realm before the next male would have reached puberty approx. 80 years later (assuming Ganondorf is about 30-40 in Adult OoT)?
Last Edited by Raian; 11-06-2006 at 10:03 AM. Reason:
  #93 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-06-2006, 10:38 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Also I forget, was it ever explained how the Gerudo were able to repopulate when Ganondorf was sealed away in the Sacred Realm before the next male would have reached puberty approx. 80 years later (assuming Ganondorf is about 30-40 in Adult OoT)?
We don't know how old Ganondorf is in OoT. For all we know, another Gerudo King could have been due already.
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Originally Posted by Raian View Post
You're confusing incest with inbreeding. In isolated communities (with the population of small towns), the people can inbreed to keep themselves alive, which is as you say, perfectly natural and harmless. As long as no one has sex with their immediate relations then incest never occurs.
Everyone is a half-sibling, in this example. So everyone is committing "incest." It is the same with my picture of the Gerudo. The male can only reproduce through his half-sisters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
The problem with this for OoT is that there is only one Gerudo male born every 100 years, so after making love to one Gerudo, he is then forced to make love to her child as well.
Says you. When did I say that?
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Originally Posted by Raian
The harem system is consisted of females "owned" by one male and who take no part in battle.
The harem system has nothing to do with battle, so this is a slippery slope.
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Originally Posted by Raian
The Gerudo worship Ganondorf but they are not owned by him
Proof?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
and likewise they are not submissive like harem girls; they remain warriors.
If the only members of the race are women, the women are warriors by default, submissive harem girls or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
The quote was written in the context of fighting or thieving skills. "I thought all men were useless except Ganondorf, but then you proved me wrong with your thieving skills." So your argument is pointless if you use it out of context.
No. Your worth is determined in the context of fighting and thieving skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
When there is a quote to interpret, there is an interpretation. When you make up an event without a quote to interpret, it is speculation.
Like "Gerudo" children being born to Gerudo-Hylian couples?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
However, he could not populate them through inbreeding because after siring a daughter, he would then have to make love to her in order to have his own granddaughter.
Why?
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Originally Posted by Raian
Most of the monsters in Hyrule are spawn from the power of darkness.
Proof?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Also, if you read the scripts of OoT and ALTTP, they say that monsters came into Hyrule from the Evil Realm.
Actually, they don't.
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Originally Posted by Raian
1) It was stated in FSA that Ganon lost his humanity. This explains simply and clearly why he never took on a human form.
No, it wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Raian
2) Ganondorf could harness the power of darkness in OoT but not enough to tranform himself from the Gerudo form.
So the transformation at the end of the game didn't happen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Reality holds no argument if it can't be applied to the context of the game itself. If Gerudo birthing was based on reality then this "all-female, one male" rule would not exist.
Then logic is inapplicable as well, and there's no point in making any argument based on "common sense".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
With only two examples of Gerudo-Hylians, both with red hair, the evidence is that red hair is the dominant gene, if the scriptwriters are taking genes into account at all.
Why? For the sake of artistic purpose, it would only make sense to demonstrate Gerudo-Hylian half-breeds by giving them red hair so they can be identified.
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Last Edited by LegendofLex; 11-06-2006 at 10:48 AM. Reason:
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Old 11-06-2006, 11:38 AM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
We don't know how old Ganondorf is in OoT. For all we know, another Gerudo King could have been due already.
Ganondorf is human, and therefore his physical appearance dictates a young to middle age. Any assumption otherwise is speculation and that goes for the other Gerudo as well. The only time we can assume appearance =/= age is with the Kokiri because it is stated that they never grow up.

Quote:
Everyone is a half-sibling, in this example. So everyone is committing "incest." It is the same with my picture of the Gerudo. The male can only reproduce through his half-sisters.
Every individual within the community carries a unique variation of their parent's genes, so if someone makes love to another who is more distantly related to them (within the same community), then the effects of incest do not occur because the genes go back more than one or two generations. If there were more men in the Gerudo, inbreeding could occur in the tribe and validate your point. But one male means one set of genes which eliminates any possibility for distinctive variation amongst the children.

Quote:
Says you. When did I say that?
For the Gerudo to thrive as a population, they need to have sex in more than one generation. Since the male has to populate the species over the period of 70-80 years that he lives and can reproduce, then that means he must make love to three generations of Gerudo. Since the generations are only born through the same male, then he must sire his own grandchildren.

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The harem system has nothing to do with battle, so this is a slippery slope.
Exactly. It is a big difference between the Gerudo and the harem girls that you are trying to compare with each other.

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Proof?
You mean prove that you are speculating? Alright, *reads the text*. There are no quotes that state/imply that the Gerudo are owned by Ganondorf.

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If the only members of the race are women, the women are warriors by default, submissive harem girls or not.
To assume the Gerudo are submissive is anything but proven. Not one has showed any form of submissiveness to Ganondorf but respect and admiration for him, as warriors do with their leader.

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No. Your worth is determined in the context of fighting and thieving skills.
The Gerudo is making the comparison between Link and other men in the terms of combat skills. Therefore, we can only take the quote to refer to the context of combat skills.

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Like "Gerudo" children being born to Gerudo-Hylian couples?
Exactly. However, I have in-game evidence to ground my speculation.

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Proof?

Actually, they don't.
OoT says that the evil power that radiated from the Evil Realm transformed Hyrule into a world of monsters. ALTTP then says that evil power radiated from the Evil Realm and that the Dark World is full of demons. Ganon is the Demon King of Darkness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OoT
He obtained the Triforce from the Temple of Light, and with its power, he became the King of Evil... His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule, and in seven short years, it transformed Hyrule into a world of monsters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALTTP
The entrance to the sacred land where the gold was hidden was discovered in that Hyrule Kingdom, and many people fought, and vanished into the sacred land. However, there were none who returned. Worse, evil power came gushing forth from there. Thereupon, the country's king commanded Seven Sages and had the entrance to the sacred land sealed.

Link, can you hear the voice of I, Sahasralah? The place where you are now standing is the world that was originally called the sacred land... However, now, the demons run rampant. It is, so to speak, a world of darkness.

If you use those and go back and forth between the two worlds, you can find the monsters that lurk in the World of Darkness! The only one who can defeat Ganondorf the thief... no, Ganon the Demon King of Darkness, is you... I am praying.

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No, it wasn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSA
Ganon... this beast was once of the Gerudo... Once human.

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So the transformation at the end of the game didn't happen?
The transformation in OoT wasn't completed. When Ganondorf was defeated, he was forced to return to his human form. It's like how Ganon was only partially revived in Oracles; we saw him physically there but the ritual wasn't complete.

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Then logic is inapplicable as well, and there's no point in making any argument based on "common sense".
Logic can only be inapplicable when it has been disproved. We have disproved that the birthing complex of the Gerudo follows no logic but the Gerudo as a society can still follow the normal rules.

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Why? For the sake of artistic purpose, it would only make sense to demonstrate Gerudo-Hylian half-breeds by giving them red hair so they can be identified.
If it is artistic expression then we can't use it in discussion about genetic traits since the genetic complex isn't the reason why they have red hair. As such, we can't treat the red hair as a universal rule to show Gerudo heritage because there is evidence of red-headed Hylians in general (like Malon in TMC) who are not Gerudo-birthed. In conclusion, the red hair does not amount to any definite evidence.
Last Edited by Raian; 11-06-2006 at 11:51 AM. Reason:
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Old 11-06-2006, 12:02 PM
Xel United_States Xel is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Raian wins this. X3 His answers consist of more than "uh-huh." "nuh-uh." "why?" and ignoring quotes from the games. :3

*crowns him and runs off.*
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Old 11-06-2006, 02:05 PM
mohammedali United Kingdom mohammedali is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaati View Post
Twinrova is a witch, I don't think you can include them, since they've lived to the Oracle games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
Exactly. It can be argued that the powers of darkness create everlasting lifespans, like Vaati who is not Gerudo. Every example of characters in Zelda who have lived more than a century have been connected with darkness.
There's no proof that Gerudos who live long lives is due to 'darkness'. By implication, does the GDT also owe his longativity to darkness? I doubt it.
In any case, if the expected lifespan of a male Gerudo is over 100 years irrespective of his connection to darkness, then by implication, a female Gerudo would have the same lifespan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
Ganondorf is human, and therefore his physical appearance dictates a young to middle age. Any assumption otherwise is speculation and that goes for the other Gerudo as well. The only time we can assume appearance =/= age is with the Kokiri because it is stated that they never grow up.
You can't tell how the Gerudos age. The only time we see a Gerudo male hundreds of years in the future is Ganondorf from OoT to WW. Here, he does not seem to have aged massively (looks pretty young for someone multiple centuries old). I believe he owes his youth to the seal, but as this is based on congecture and not proof, the highly likely possibility that Gerudos don't age like humans has to be considered.

Quote:
For the Gerudo to thrive as a population, they need to have sex in more than one generation. Since the male has to populate the species over the period of 70-80 years that he lives and can reproduce, then that means he must make love to three generations of Gerudo. Since the generations are only born through the same male, then he must sire his own grandchildren.
Did you not consider the possibility that Ganon's parner could be the mother of each of those 'generations'?
i.e. Just like Ganon is always the father for all generations, Ganon's partner could be the mother for all the generations as well. Their female children would not have any male Gerudo partners by implications. Any male born into the family would have children with a different Gerudo family so as to avoid incest.
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Old 11-06-2006, 02:14 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohammedali View Post
There's no proof that Gerudos who live long lives is due to 'darkness'. By implication, does the GDT also owe his longativity to darkness? I doubt it.
In any case, if the expected lifespan of a male Gerudo is over 100 years irrespective of his connection to darkness, then by implication, a female Gerudo would have the same lifespan.
The Great Deku Tree is the guardian spirit of the forest, so he has long life from that power, just as Valoo and Jabun/Jabu-Jabu also have lasting life because they are guardian spirits. They have been referred to as living gods.

The Gerudo themselves are not connected to darkness (they have been stated to be a good and honourable tribe in FSA), only Ganondorf and his servants, Twinrova, are connected to the darkness and have the long lifespans. As I said before, Vaati is also immortal and is not Gerudo.

Quote:
You can't tell how the Gerudos age. The only time we see a Gerudo male hundreds of years in the future is Ganondorf from OoT to WW. Here, he does not seem to have aged massively (looks pretty young for someone multiple centuries old). I believe he owes his youth to the seal, but as this is based on congecture and not proof, the highly likely possibility that Gerudos don't age like humans has to be considered.
To assume that the Gerudo age longer than all the other humans is speculation.

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Did you not consider the possibility that Ganon's partner could be the mother of each of those 'generations'?
i.e. Just like Ganon is always the father for all generations, Ganon's partner could be the mother for all the generations as well. Their female children would not have any male Gerudo partners by implications. Any male born into the family would have children with a different Gerudo family so as to avoid incest.
As long as characters are of the same bloodline, they do not need to be direct descendants. The Hero can be reborn through the Knights of Hyrule, even if the bloodline stems from the previous Hero's cousin, because it is the power of the bloodline that matters.
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Old 11-06-2006, 02:27 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xel View Post
Raian wins this. X3 His answers consist of more than "uh-huh." "nuh-uh." "why?" and ignoring quotes from the games. :3
I'm ignoring quotes from the games?

Anyone who's been in timeline debate for more than five minutes will tell you that this is not my policy at all. If anything, I'm taking a very literalist approach to interpretation, which is hardly any less credible a line of thought.
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Old 11-06-2006, 02:29 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
I'm ignoring quotes from the games?

Anyone who's been in timeline debate for more than five minutes will tell you that this is not my policy at all. If anything, I'm taking a very literalist approach to interpretation, which is hardly any less credible a line of thought.
That is true. He doesn't ignore quotes, he just interprets them differently.
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Old 11-06-2006, 02:42 PM
mohammedali United Kingdom mohammedali is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
The Great Deku Tree is the guardian spirit of the forest, so he has long life from that power, just as Valoo and Jabun/Jabu-Jabu also have lasting life because they are guardian spirits. They have been referred to as living gods.
Exactly, which goes against your very own quote
Raian: "Every example of characters in Zelda who have lived more than a century have been connected with darkness."
Backtracking already?

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The Gerudo themselves are not connected to darkness (they have been stated to be a good and honourable tribe in FSA), only Ganondorf and his servants, Twinrova, are connected to the darkness and have the long lifespans. As I said before, Vaati is also immortal and is not Gerudo.
Exactly, which is what I said. If Gerudos are not all corrupt, and the expected lifespan of a Gerudo male is over 100 years without 'darkness', then why are you attributing Ganon's and Twinrova's lifespan to darkness and not their stated genetic traits?

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To assume that the Gerudo age longer than all the other humans is speculation.
No. It's based on in game evidence of OoT and WW which shows Ganon ageing little in comparison to how old he is.

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As long as characters are of the same bloodline, they do not need to be direct descendants. The Hero can be reborn through the Knights of Hyrule, even if the bloodline stems from the previous Hero's cousin, because it is the power of the bloodline that matters.
Thing is, we're not talking about that. The topic is about the Gerudos and incest, and not about powers of bloodlines. I don't think anyone here doubts that the Gerudos retain their abilities through generations. The question is, how. Do they retain being clear Gerudos via incest or not. Some here thing incest is the only way this set up would work. I beg to differ.
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