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  #61 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 08:41 PM
Kittie Rose Kittie Rose is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

I don't like the way this post is phrased at all; "comitting incest".

What if Incest is an important part of someone else's beliefs?

http://www.desy.de/gna/interpedia/gr.../creation.html

Quote:
Meanwhile Gaea alone gave birth to Uranus, the heavens. Uranus became Gaea's mate covering her on all sides. Together they produced the three Cyclopes, the three Hecatoncheires, and twelve Titans.
My Lady would be offended >: (

Chritianity isn't the only religion with a zany creation myth, you know. I take great offense to you insulting an integral part of my beliefs!!!
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Old 11-04-2006, 08:49 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Does anyone actually take reality into account anymore? It's no wonder the Church of Scientology gains a popular following in this day and age...
  #63 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 08:52 PM
Kittie Rose Kittie Rose is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Raian, I think you missed the point of my post, but apart from that, I agree with you. Though not in the way you want me to, no doubt, as you are quite far from reality as it is.
Last Edited by Kittie Rose; 11-04-2006 at 09:11 PM. Reason:
  #64 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 09:06 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
The fact that only one physical trait connects to the Gerudo implies dominance in one form or another.
Red hair is a recessive trait. The two genetic alleles that determine whether or not someone has red hair are "not-red" (i.e., any other color; dominant) and "red" (recessive). Any red-headed child must have two "redhead" alleles to inherit red hair. By virtue of this, we can assume that the fathers of Malon and the red-headed twins carried at least one redhead allele.

The presence of significant amounts of pheomelanin (red-colored melanin--the same pigment that causes red hair color) is also a recessive trait (in the same way that red hair is recessive). So is a deficiency of eumelanin (brown-colored melanin)--characteristic of whites. So "white" skin and "red" skin are both recessive, and "red" skin is "more recessive" than "white" skin. This means that no dark red-skinned children can be born if a white allele is present.

In other words, your theory assumes that two highly recessive traits are passed down through mating with a gene pool that includes males with which the likelihood of both these recessive alleles being present at all is extremely low.

Common sense dictates that there won't be too many Gerudo--certainly not enough to constitute a "race".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
As I said before, one male Gerudo is born every 100 years. This rule does not apply to half-breeds.
You're right.

Half-breeds aren't "Gerudo."

That's the very point I'm trying to make.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
The point I am trying to get across is that defining characteristics don't disappear just because one of those parents doesn't have that characteristic.
In any example given in OoT, they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
If a Sage and a non-Sage create a Sage, then why can't a Gerudo and a non-Gerudo create a Gerudo?
"Sage" is a title passed down through direct descent. As long as someone is a child of a previous Sage, that child is eligible to be a "Sage".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
The Kokiri are "forest spirits" (stated in OoT). They were given life by the Great Deku Tree and they never grow up.
No. "Forest spirits" live in the Forest Temple (stated in OoT).
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  #65 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 09:12 PM
Kittie Rose Kittie Rose is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

What's the point in even having the "Alpha Male" if they can just interbreed like that anyway?

Raian has to learn that sexual "tidbits" aren't as taboo in some countries as they are in others.
  #66 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 09:21 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
Red hair is a recessive trait. The two genetic alleles that determine whether or not someone has red hair are "not-red" (i.e., any other color; dominant) and "red" (recessive). Any red-headed child must have two "redhead" alleles to inherit red hair. By virtue of this, we can assume that the fathers of Malon and the red-headed twins carried at least one redhead allele.

The presence of significant amounts of pheomelanin (red-colored melanin--the same pigment that causes red hair color) is also a recessive trait (in the same way that red hair is recessive). So is a deficiency of eumelanin (brown-colored melanin)--characteristic of whites. So "white" skin and "red" skin are both recessive, and "red" skin is "more recessive" than "white" skin. This means that no dark red-skinned children can be born if a white allele is present.

In other words, your theory assumes that two highly recessive traits are passed down through mating with a gene pool that includes males with which the likelihood of both these recessive alleles being present at all is extremely low.
How is this relevant in the context of the Zelda series? Are the scriptwriters biologists now? As I see it, in the majority of cases, children of Gerudo and Hylians produce Gerudo but in rare cases, Hylians are produced and sent back to their fathers. When Gerudo are produced, they are only female unless the 100 year cycle kicks in and a male is born to lead them. If they are Hylians, the rule is exempt. The concept is that simple.

Quote:
In any example given in OoT, they do.
That depends on the examples. Technically, we only know that Malon's mother looks like a Gerudo. If we have to interpret what constitutes an example then I take the Gerudo tribe as examples of a race that procreate through Hylians.

Quote:
"Sage" is a title passed down through direct descent. As long as someone is a child of a previous Sage, that child is eligible to be a "Sage".
So why aren't there half-Sages then?

Quote:
No. "Forest spirits" live in the Forest Temple (stated in OoT).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWW
These are the Koroks--the spirits of the forest. Once upon a time, long ago, the Koroks took on human forms, but when they came to live on the sea, they took these shapes.
Kokiri are forest spirits as well.
Last Edited by Raian; 11-04-2006 at 09:27 PM. Reason:
  #67 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 09:34 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
How is this relevant in the context of the Zelda series? Are the scriptwriters biologists now?
No, but you obviously aren't one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
As I see it, in the majority of cases, children of Gerudo and Hylians produce Gerudo
What cases are you referring to, besides the ones you're making up? "As you see it", indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
in rare cases, Hylians are produced and sent back to their fathers.
Again, entirely fabricated by you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
When Gerudo are produced, they are only female unless the 100 year cycle kicks in and a male is born to lead them. If they are Hylians, the rule is exempt.
Except they aren't "Gerudo" or "Hylian"--they're all half-breeds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
So why aren't there half-Sages then?
You can't be halfway descended from a specific person. You either are, or you aren't.
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Last Edited by LegendofLex; 11-04-2006 at 09:41 PM. Reason:
  #68 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 09:41 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
No, but you obviously aren't one.
If it doesn't stick to the context that the storyline is developed, there is no point in using it.

Quote:
What cases are you referring to, besides the ones you're making up?
Well, where's the evidence that Ganondorf is the father of any of the other Gerudo? You presume that because there are a couple of Hylians with Gerudo mothers that all the pure Gerudo are Ganondorf's daughters or sisters yet there is no evidence of such heritage.

Do you see my point? You claim that I am speculating heritage or ancestry, which is true, but there is just as much speculation on your part. In fact, I stated it was speculation earlier and you said "yes". You cannot use the "proof" argument anymore in this topic because there is no proof for either case.

Quote:
You can't be halfway descended from a specific person. You either are, or you aren't.
So, you can't be halfway descended from a Sage but you can be halfway descended from a Gerudo, except then you can't either because Gerudo children are either born as Gerudo or Hylian. Without the evidence for half-breeds, I rest my case.
  #69 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 09:45 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
Well, where's the evidence that Ganondorf is the father of any of the other Gerudo?
You'd have to be an idiot to claim that the sole male in an otherwise all female society hasn't sired any children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
You claim that I am speculating heritage or ancestry, which is true, but there is just as much speculation on your part.
Except my speculation doesn't claim that the only examples we see are exceptions to the rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
So, you can't be halfway descended from a Sage but you can be halfway descended from a Gerudo, except then you can't either because Gerudo children are either born as Gerudo or Hylian. Without the evidence for half-breeds, I rest my case.
You can't be "halfway descended from Steve." You either are descended from Steve, or you aren't descended from Steve. You either inherit genes from Steve or you don't. There is only one Steve.

You can be descended from both a Hylian and a Gerudo, in which case you should inherit genes from both sides. Which means that all descendants of Hylian-Gerudo unions will be Hylian-Gerudo. None of them will be solely Gerudo or solely Hylian.
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Old 11-04-2006, 10:03 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
You'd have to be an idiot to claim that the sole male in an otherwise all female society hasn't sired any children.
I'm not contesting the possibility that Ganondorf could not have sired a few children. I am contesting the idea that he is siring every child in the tribe. Why is this?

-Take into account normal life-spans and the time it takes for the male to reach the age of maturity and there would be about 35 years where no one in the tribe reproduces, and that presumes Ganondorf reaches 80 years old and that he is still able to make love at such an old age. Then take into account that Ganondorf in OoT was sealed in the Sacred Realm about 30-40 years before his estimated would-be death at 80 and there is honestly no way that the Gerudo could have survived almost a century without reproduction.

-Then there is Nintendo's own nature. Look at their other franchises such as Mario, Metroid or Star Fox. Did you ever observe Mature-rated concepts in any of those games? Would you imagine Mario and Luigi having sex in an official game? Just because something can be hidden within the text doesn't mean it is. Nintendo is making games, not cultural mysteries for only the intellgencia like you and me to solve.

Quote:
Except my speculation doesn't claim that the only examples we see are exceptions to the rule.
Assuming your examples are examples at all. There is no direct statement saying that the Gerudos are mothers to those children and there is no evidence that the red hair equals Gerudo heritage. Malon has red hair in TMC but there are no Gerudos around to be her mother.

Quote:
You can't be "halfway descended from Steve." You either are descended from Steve, or you aren't descended from Steve.
So if the Gerudo are descended from the Gerudo and from the Hylians, wouldn't that allow them to swing either way, to become Gerudo or Hylian?
  #71 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 10:16 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
Take into account normal life-spans and the time it takes for the male to reach the age of maturity and there would be about 35 years where no one in the tribe reproduces, and that presumes Ganondorf reaches 80 years old and that he is still able to make love at such an old age. Then take into account that Ganondorf in OoT was sealed in the Sacred Realm about 30-40 years before his estimated would-be death at 80 and there is honestly no way that the Gerudo could have survived almost a century without reproduction.
Ganondorf lives hundreds of years without appearing to age a day between OoT and TWW. So that rules out the "normal life-span" point.

Ruling out the "normal life-span" point renders all the other points similarly ineffective.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Then there is Nintendo's own nature. Look at their other franchises such as Mario, Metroid or Star Fox. Did you ever observe Mature-rated concepts in any of those games?
The incest is never featured. I'm suggesting it takes place behind the scenes, just as you suggest populating the Gerudo tribe through Hylians takes place behind the scenes.

Also, to answer the question, there are plenty of mature concepts in Star Fox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Assuming your examples are examples at all. There is no direct statement saying that the Gerudos are mothers to those children and there is no evidence that the red hair equals Gerudo heritage.
So are you going to deny my examples?

Because that would hardly help explain why Hylians mating with Gerudo helps to thin Hylian blood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Malon has red hair in TMC but there are no Gerudos around to be her mother.
But they must surely exist, given that we see them later in FSA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
So if the Gerudo are descended from the Gerudo and from the Hylians, wouldn't that allow them to swing either way, to become Gerudo or Hylian?
Hylians are characterized by brown-blonde hair and blue eyes, and fair skin. Gerudo are characterized by red hair, yellow eyes, and red skin. Malon possesses some of the Hylian traits--blue eyes and fair skin--and some of the Gerudo traits--red hair. You're suggesting that a noteworthy number of Gerudo-Hylian children inherited all of the Gerudo traits, and none of the Hylian traits. I find this to be preposterous. All Gerudo traits are extremely recessive, which seems to suggest to me more than anything else that they are inbreeding (given that the typical solution to preserving specific traits in fantasy/mythology/ancient history is via inbreeding).
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  #72 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 10:41 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
Ganondorf lives hundreds of years without appearing to age a day between OoT and TWW. So that rules out the "normal life-span" point.

Ruling out the "normal life-span" point renders all the other points similarly ineffective.
He has the Triforce of Power to explain for his long life span. If all the Gerudo males lived longer than centuries, we would see Ganondorf's predecessors in OoT and the whole emphasis on " the one Gerudo male is the king" would be nonexistent since the predeccessor would still be king, not Ganondorf.

Quote:
The incest is never featured. I'm suggesting it takes place behind the scenes, just as you suggest populating the Gerudo tribe through Hylians takes place behind the scenes.
At least there is a quote telling us that sex between the Hylians and the Gerudo actually occurs, and therefore for a reason. There is no quote to suggest that Ganondorf is anything more than a leader.

Quote:
Also, to answer the question, there are plenty of mature concepts in Star Fox.
Such as, for example?

Quote:
So are you going to deny my examples?
I deny the context that you use the examples. The clear majority of people who have played OoT still do not know that these connections exist and even from reading the quotes there are no direct connections to be made. If the concepts bare such a marginal meaning within OoT, then how we can ensure their meaning outside of OoT? Is there evidence that the considerations are taken into definite consideration outside of the game?

Quote:
Because that would hardly help explain why Hylians mating with Gerudo helps to thin Hylian blood.
If it doesn't, I honestly don't care since I've never personally accepted the theory.

Quote:
But they must surely exist, given that we see them later in FSA.
The Gerudo aren't in the Great Sea area in TWW (which is much larger than Hyrule's land mass) or in Hyrule in TMC. What this suggests is that they removed themselves from whole area and returned as Hyrule began to re-establish it's original identity. To suggest that they are in Hyrule when there is no evidence that they are is speculation.

Quote:
Hylians are characterized by brown-blonde hair and blue eyes, and fair skin. Gerudo are characterized by red hair, yellow eyes, and red skin. Malon possesses some of the Hylian traits--blue eyes and fair skin--and some of the Gerudo traits--red hair. You're suggesting that a noteworthy number of Gerudo-Hylian children inherited all of the Gerudo traits, and none of the Hylian traits. I find this to be preposterous. All Gerudo traits are extremely recessive, which seems to suggest to me more than anything else that they are inbreeding (given that the typical solution to preserving specific traits in fantasy/mythology/ancient history is via inbreeding).
What evidence is there that the Gerudo traits are recessive? From what I can see, if the Gerudo are supposed to be populating their species through the Hylians, then that suggests their genes are much more dominant.
  #73 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 10:47 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
He has the Triforce of Power to explain for his long life span.
The King of Hyrule has the full Triforce prior to AoL, but "he, too, was a child of men" and so he dies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
If all the Gerudo males lived longer than centuries, we would see Ganondorf's predecessors in OoT and the whole emphasis on " the one Gerudo male is the king" would be nonexistent since the predeccessor would still be king, not Ganondorf.
Or, in keeping with Ganondorf's character, he could have killed his predecessor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
At least there is a quote telling us that sex between the Hylians and the Gerudo actually occurs, and therefore for a reason. There is no quote to suggest that Ganondorf is anything more than a leader.
Actually, it's speculation that the Gossip Stone implies a sexual relationship at all. It says "boyfriends", after all, not "mates."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Such as, for example?
Do you know how many possibilities there are for "couplings" in the end of Star Fox: Command? A lot of couplings. Ask MoALttP. He'll tell you all about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
The Gerudo aren't in the Great Sea area in TWW (which is much larger than Hyrule's land mass) or in Hyrule in TMC. What this suggests is that they removed themselves from whole area and returned as Hyrule began to re-establish it's original identity. To suggest that they are in Hyrule when there is no evidence that they are is speculation.
There are three Gorons in the Great Sea area in TWW, and only a few more in TMC. Clearly the Great Sea area/TMC Hyrule doesn't represent the whole of the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
What evidence is there that the Gerudo traits are recessive? From what I can see, if the Gerudo are supposed to be populating their species through the Hylians, then that suggests their genes are much more dominant.
If.

This is a nice use of the "begging the question" fallacy.
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  #74 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 10:55 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
The King of Hyrule has the full Triforce prior to AoL, but "he, too, was a child of men" and so he dies.
I didn't explain my point correctly. The King of Hyrule didn't wish for power on the Triforce, he used it to establish peace. Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to magnify the power of darkness within him and to spread darkness from the Evil Realm. It is this power, I argue, that gives him everlasting life.

Quote:
Or, in keeping with Ganondorf's character, he could have killed his predecessor.
Speculation. Surely, the Gerudo would not adore him for killing their king.

Quote:
Actually, it's speculation that the Gossip Stone implies a sexual relationship at all. It says "boyfriends", after all, not "mates."
In the context of human discussion, using the term "mates" is derogatory, even towards a fictional race. "Boyfriends" is much more in-keeping with the context of the story, and since we know that the Gerudo look down upon all men, they can only be looking for one thing.

Quote:
Do you know how many possibilities there are for "couplings" in the end of Star Fox: Command? A lot of couplings. Ask MoALttP. He'll tell you all about them.
Alright, are any of those relationships incestuous or explicity sexual? Love is not a mature concept.

Quote:
There are three Gorons in the Great Sea area in TWW, and only a few more in TMC. Clearly the Great Sea area/TMC Hyrule doesn't represent the whole of the world.
Exactly. The migration concept makes sense.

Quote:
If.

This is a nice use of the "begging the question" fallacy.
Alright, Mr Picky. I'll state it clearly. What evidence is there that the Gerudo genes are recessive to the Hylian genes?
  #75 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-04-2006, 11:02 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
I didn't explain my point correctly. The King of Hyrule didn't wish for power on the Triforce, he used it to establish peace. Ganondorf used the Triforce of Power to magnify the power of darkness within him and to spread darkness from the Evil Realm. It is this power, I argue, that gives him everlasting life.
Speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Speculation. Surely, the Gerudo would not adore him for killing their king.
Unless, of course, it was tradition. The Sith tradition, in Star Wars, is for the apprentice to ascend to Mastership by killing his master. Something of that sort could easily appear in a Zelda title.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
In the context of human discussion, using the term "mates" is derogatory, even towards a fictional race. "Boyfriends" is much more in-keeping with the context of the story, and since we know that the Gerudo look down upon all men, they can only be looking for one thing.
The term "boyfriends" suggests no sexual relationship. If it does, Nintendo is eliciting a message to a young audience that premarital sex is okay, which sort of goes against your principle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Alright, are any of those relationships incestuous or explicity sexual? Love is not a mature concept.
Slippy Toad has a lot of children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian
Alright, Mr Picky. I'll state it clearly. What evidence is there that the Gerudo genes are recessive to the Hylian genes?
How many redheads do you see, outside of the Gerudo?
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  #76 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 04:29 AM
silver arrow silver arrow is a male Canada silver arrow is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

The way I see it, the Gerudo gene is dominant and they mate with Hylians, making more Gerudos. Occasionally a child will be born with the resessive trait since the trait is held in all Hylians and Gerudos since Gerudos are fathered by Hylians. These "half-breeds" are sent to the father.
Of course, the male Gerudo will also mate with Gerudos (and whoever the hell else he wants to), making more Gerudos and so called "half-breeds".
I do not believe that a male is strictly born every 100 years, but more likely that it is just so rare for a male to be born with the Gerudo trait that it happens on average once a century.
This is the most probable explanation.
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Old 11-05-2006, 07:42 AM
Vaati 2705 Vaati 2705 is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Thank you SA, thats what I tried to say in my post before =P but well here it is...

And Lex, the fact that Gerudo Males life spam is more than 100 years (and are sexually active) is also mere speculation. silver arrow's theory is simple (so a Nintendo developer who knows most likely not that much about genes could make it), based in facts and common sense, and goes along well with the context of the game.
Not to mention it also fits in the Hylian blood thining.

Peace Out.
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  #78 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 08:33 AM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
Speculation.
Well, considering that there is no direct statement explaining how Ganondorf/Ganon: King of Evil gains everlasting life, I choose to go with the connotations between Ganondorf's power of darkness and his everlasting life throughout the timeline. As a human, Ganondorf is mortal; as a Demon King, Ganon is immortal.

Quote:
Unless, of course, it was tradition. The Sith tradition, in Star Wars, is for the apprentice to ascend to Mastership by killing his master. Something of that sort could easily appear in a Zelda title.
It could possibly appear in a Zelda title, but not only is this speculation, I am confident Nintendo is deliberately putting forward the message that the Gerudo tribe in general aren't evil; only Ganondorf (and his devout followers). For example, were the four carpenters murdered on sight when they entered the Fortress? No, they were imprisoned. There are details like this, Nabooru and the "honourable" description in FSA that are deliberately setting the Gerudo apart from Ganondorf. The Gerudo imprisoned people; Ganondorf "murdered" people.

Quote:
The term "boyfriends" suggests no sexual relationship. If it does, Nintendo is eliciting a message to a young audience that premarital sex is okay, which sort of goes against your principle.
Just to explain where I stand on this principle (and not to look hypocritical), there is nothing wrong with arguing that a single word/term has been used to hide the true meaning of the sentence in question for the benefit of children. What is wrong is the way that entire events are speculated with the excuse that we do not see them because it would alienate the young audience. There is a clean difference between interpretation and speculation.

You are correct that the term "boyfriends" does not imply an immediate sexual relationship. For this term, and only this term, will I use the argument that the term is used to protect the welfare of children. As adults, we understand that the concept will lead in some respect to a sexual relationship. After all, the Gerudo look down upon all men except Ganondorf, so their willingness to find boyfriends is inconsistent with this impression, unless they were after something important and unrelated to that impression, such as sex for procreation. Without sensible alternatives, this is the logical reception of the message.

Quote:
Slippy Toad has a lot of children.
So do normal toads. Ever seen the number of eggs that they produce in the wild? This is just a humorous parody of nature.

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How many redheads do you see, outside of the Gerudo?
Lol, *counts all the Hylians in the game*.

Question: what are the ratio of Hylian adults to children in OoT? You argued that we don't see all the Gerudo in the fortress; isn't it obvious that we don't see all the Hylians either? My point is red hair does not necessarily equal Gerudo heritage as long as there is at least one example of a girl with red hair and no Gerudos to give birth to her. Until I see a definite elaboration of the vague concept that it was, I do not accept it for truth in the general timeline.


PS: In response to the above posts, since the Gerudo only giving birth to female Gerudo is unnatural, I interpret the 100 year rule to be exact and unnatural as well. Every 100 years, a Gerudo male is born and "destined" to lead the Gerudo. The inclusion of destiny enforces the concept that it is an unnatural system.
Last Edited by Raian; 11-05-2006 at 09:15 AM. Reason:
  #79 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 09:50 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raian View Post
Well, considering that there is no direct statement explaining how Ganondorf/Ganon: King of Evil gains everlasting life, I choose to go with the connotations between Ganondorf's power of darkness and his everlasting life throughout the timeline. As a human, Ganondorf is mortal; as a Demon King, Ganon is immortal.
I choose to go with the precedent set by Twinrova that powerful Gerudo have unnaturally long life, despite not being "demon kings".
Quote:
I am confident Nintendo is deliberately putting forward the message that the Gerudo tribe in general aren't evil; only Ganondorf (and his devout followers).
The implications I saw were that Nabooru is the only Gerudo who does not devoutly follow Ganondorf.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpenter
When Nabooru was a lone wolf thief, she never stole from the weak, but...
When Nabooru was a lone wolf thief, i.e., when she worked alone, she never stole from the weak. What does this suggest? That Nabooru is one of the only thieves who doesn't steal from the weak?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpenter
Now, Nabooru's gang of thieves stands for cruelty and brutality. She claims to be a chivalrous robber, but...no way!
"Nabooru's gang of thieves" = Gerudo. Nabooru is now second-in-command to Ganondorf, after having been brainwashed by Twinrova in the past.
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The Gerudo imprisoned people; Ganondorf "murdered" people.
Ganondorf, too, imprisons people. Maidens in ALttP, Zelda in every game, etc. etc.
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Just to explain where I stand on this principle (and not to look hypocritical), there is nothing wrong with arguing that a single word/term has been used to hide the true meaning of the sentence in question for the benefit of children.
Now it makes it worse.

Children (.e., anyone past 5th grade, in the States) can now acquire the message that it's okay to sleep with "boy/girlfriends" because this videogame said so.
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For this term, and only this term, will I use the argument that the term is used to protect the welfare of children.
Your argument now fits the category of "suppressed evidence". Thank you for selectively incorporating evidence. The rest of your argument here is meaningless.
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My point is red hair does not necessarily equal Gerudo heritage as long as there is at least one example of a girl with red hair and no Gerudos to give birth to her.
Gerudo exist throughout the duration of the series. It is implied that General Onox is a Gerudo.
Quote:
In response to the above posts, since the Gerudo only giving birth to female Gerudo is unnatural, I interpret the 100 year rule to be exact and unnatural as well. Every 100 years, a Gerudo male is born and "destined" to lead the Gerudo. The inclusion of destiny enforces the concept that it is an unnatural system.
So tell me, why are you against the single-male system of populating the Gerudo, again?



Again, you should also note that, because this system would happen completely behind-the-scenes, I don't particularly care whether you accept it as being true, just as being plausible.
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  #80 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 11-05-2006, 01:09 PM
Raian United Kingdom Raian is offline
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Re: Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLionHart View Post
I choose to go with the precedent set by Twinrova that powerful Gerudo have unnaturally long life, despite not being "demon kings".
So if we agree that dark powers constitute everlasting life, we must now speculate that Ganondorf's predecessors also had dark powers to give them everlasting life. The implication is that the Gerudo leaders normally represent the tribe as honourable as the tribe themselves, with Ganondorf being an exception because of his evil heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSA
Once every 100 years, a special child is born unto my people. That child is destined to be the mighty guardian of the Gerudo and the desert. But this child, its heart grew twisted with every passing year. The child became a man who hungered for power at any price.
Quote:
The implications I saw were that Nabooru is the only Gerudo who does not devoutly follow Ganondorf.

When Nabooru was a lone wolf thief, i.e., when she worked alone, she never stole from the weak. What does this suggest? That Nabooru is one of the only thieves who doesn't steal from the weak?

"Nabooru's gang of thieves" = Gerudo. Nabooru is now second-in-command to Ganondorf, after having been brainwashed by Twinrova in the past.
Nabooru has her devout followers and Ganondorf has his devout followers. When Twinrova brainwashed Nabooru, she openly allied with Ganondorf and the Gerudo allied themselves as well. The fact that there are two camps suggests that the Gerudo are not all devout worshippers of Ganondorf; many follow Nabooru's example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OoT
When Nabooru was a lone wolf thief, she never stole from the weak, but... Now, Nabooru's gang of thieves stands for cruelty and brutality. She claims to be a chivalrous robber, but...no way!
Nabooru's standards reflect the standards of her followers.

Quote:
Ganondorf, too, imprisons people. Maidens in ALttP, Zelda in every game, etc. etc.
For most examples, Zelda and the Maidens serve a purpose for Ganon that requires they live. You are right about ALTTP though; it appears they were imprisoned for the sake of despair or torture at the hands of Ganon's servants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OoT
The two Triforce parts that I could not capture on that day seven years ago... I didn't expect they would be hidden within you two! (s******) And now, finally, all the Triforce parts have gathered here!
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Originally Posted by TWW
That when power, wisdom, and courage come together, the gods would have no choice but to come down... The power of the gods... The Triforce!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSA
Link! There's a terrible fiend in Hyrule Castle. He's leeching power from the maidens little by little.
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Originally Posted by ALTTP
After he used our power and broke the seal, we, whose usefulness was over, were sealed in crystals and presented to monsters.

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Children (.e., anyone past 5th grade, in the States) can now acquire the message that it's okay to sleep with "boy/girlfriends" because this videogame said so.
Where did you assume this? You said yourself that "boyfriends/girlfriends" do not possess direct sexual connotations for their age group.

The fact is the term "boyfriends" has two different meanings depending on the age of the player who reads it. As a child, a "boyfriend" is associated with love because this is what is repeated on television and in films. As an adult, a "boyfriend" possesses the sexual connotations as well as the connotations of love. The concept of a short-term relationship is an adult concept so when read from an adult perspective implies sex due to the complexities of Gerudo culture.

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Gerudo exist throughout the duration of the series. It is implied that General Onox is a Gerudo.
Where? He is implied to be a creature of Shadow.

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So tell me, why are you against the single-male system of populating the Gerudo, again?

Again, you should also note that, because this system would happen completely behind-the-scenes, I don't particularly care whether you accept it as being true, just as being plausible.
This is what I can't accept about your analysis. When I interpret a quote to have a different meaning from what is said, I provide a valid reason for this interpretation (I explain the context in which the quote is used). In other words, if there is a good excuse for interpretation beyond the literal then that is acceptable. What is not acceptable is to speculate entire events and excuse them by saying the developers didn't want the players to see it because it's too explicit. Although you have made some valid interpretations of the Gerudo tribe and of Ganondorf, you have had to develop a lot of speculation to make the incest theory work in particular, such as Ganondorf killing his predecessor, such as his predecessors' ability to live for many centuries.

With such an unnatural birthing system, I admittedly cannot disprove that the Gerudo won't give birth to healthy babies despite incest. But then again, I cannot accept the speculation that is required to develop that theory. It's almost like you are trying to establish a biography of Gerudo culture when there simply isn't enough information to make the evidence stick.
Last Edited by Raian; 11-05-2006 at 01:17 PM. Reason:
Closed Thread

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