Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

They are the only two half-Gerudo Hylians, until you show me more examples.

Of course. It's a Sage bloodline. Not a Sage race.

Not all products of incest are unhealthy.

The only positive evidence we see for ourselves in the game is that the race is a female warrior-race, and the females sometimes mate with males. Anything else, including an assimilation of female offspring into the Gerudo tribe, etc. etc, is assumption on your part.

No comment.

One could argue that if most of the Hylians are gone in ALttP, then the sages and royal family are the only Hylians left, and as such they are all a race. Of course, your theory means that all Gerudo have Ganondorf as a father, in which case they are all the same family.

But some are. Prove that all Gerudo are healthy.

No comment.

Originally Posted by darthcucco

One could argue that if most of the Hylians are gone in ALttP, then the sages and royal family are the only Hylians left, and as such they are all a race.

1) Prove that the Sages/Royal Family are "Hylian";
2) Prove that all the Sages are related to one another.

Of course, your theory means that all Gerudo have Ganondorf as a father, in which case they are all the same family.

Not necessarily Ganondorf, but whoever is King. And what's your point?

Originally Posted by darthcucco

Challenge to Raian: Prove that all Gerudo are healthy.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

1) Prove that the Sages/Royal Family are "Hylian";
2) Prove that all the Sages are related to one another.

Not necessarily Ganondorf, but whoever is King. And what's your point?

1) In ALttP, they all have telepathic powers (at least I think so- I haven't played that game in ages) and pointed ears.
2) I didn't say that they were.

My point is that you can't dismiss Raian's point about the sages as being a bloodline as opposed to a race, because you propose that the Gerudo are all the same family. And last time I checked, a bloodline is a family line.

No, it's a challenge to you, as you are the one who is proposing that all the gerudo are born though the single male, and as such all Gerudo, by the terms of your theory, must commit incest in order to give birth. This presents problems to do with whether the baby would be healthy or not, so it is up to you to prove whether it is possible genetically that all the Gerudo are healthy if they are all born from the same father.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear before, but the above paragraph is what I meant.

Originally Posted by Vaati

Turning on N64 now, i'll grab the quotes real quick, since I hate text dumps. Hold on 3 minutes and i'll edit this post.

Guy in market-

Talon-

It seems the guy has a Gerudo has a mother, and Talon a Gerudo as a wife. Making the guy in blue and Malon half Gerudo.

..It was more time because one of my files only had the bunny ears so I had to switch, and the other was on Adult Link.

Kay, sorry, guys. But a key point in the whole argument in this topic seems to be that Malon and this kid are half-Gerudo, but am I seriously the only one who finds the above "evidence" to be... very, very poor support for this claim? Note that the Gerudo mask is also the only mask of Link's to actually depict a woman. And hey, maybe that's the deepest significance. Or maybe the resemblance lies with the red hair. Now, I'll concede that it's totally possible that they're both children of Gerudo, but I just don't see how it's reasonable to go from "these children's mothers somewhat resemble the Gerudo mask and probably have red hair" to "zomgz tehys gerudos 100%!!11"

A possibility? Yes. Stone-cold fact? Hahaha no. So it seems to me that a lot of this debate (for which I don't particularly understand the reason for the heat it's got to it, since there's not a lot to do aside from argue two equally unsubstantiatable theories) relies heavily on whether or not you choose to put a ton of stock in the statements of this random kid and Talon (who subsequently decides that the Gerudo mask doesn't look a thing like his wife). I don't think there's a One Truth to this thing at all, and personally consider it a little ridiculous and futile to try and finagle one into being. Why, no, I'm not scintillated by debate for debate's sake. XD But such is the way of fandom wank~~

Those'd be my two... dollars.

Originally Posted by Xel

Kay, sorry, guys. But a key point in the whole argument in this topic seems to be that Malon and this kid are half-Gerudo, but am I seriously the only one who finds the above "evidence" to be... very, very poor support for this claim? Note that the Gerudo mask is also the only mask of Link's to actually depict a woman. And hey, maybe that's the deepest significance. Or maybe the resemblance lies with the red hair. Now, I'll concede that it's totally possible that they're both children of Gerudo, but I just don't see how it's reasonable to go from "these children's mothers somewhat resemble the Gerudo mask and probably have red hair" to "zomgz tehys gerudos 100%!!11"

A possibility? Yes. Stone-cold fact? Hahaha no. So it seems to me that a lot of this debate (for which I don't particularly understand the reason for the heat it's got to it, since there's not a lot to do aside from argue two equally unsubstantiatable theories) relies heavily on whether or not you choose to put a ton of stock in the statements of this random kid and Talon (who subsequently decides that the Gerudo mask doesn't look a thing like his wife). I don't think there's a One Truth to this thing at all, and personally consider it a little ridiculous and futile to try and finagle one into being. Why, no, I'm not scintillated by debate for debate's sake. XD But such is the way of fandom wank~~

Those'd be my two... dollars.

I take my hat of to you. You've summed up what would take a few pages of pointless debate otherwise in one post.

Originally Posted by Xel

A possibility? Yes. Stone-cold fact? Hahaha no. So it seems to me that a lot of this debate (for which I don't particularly understand the reason for the heat it's got to it, since there's not a lot to do aside from argue two equally unsubstantiatable theories) relies heavily on whether or not you choose to put a ton of stock in the statements of this random kid and Talon (who subsequently decides that the Gerudo mask doesn't look a thing like his wife).

I think the TalonxGerudo connection stemmed from a similar reaction from Nabooru, who claimed the mask looked like her then changes her mind, but the blue boy thing- I have no idea where that came from, you see a load of red haired women in the market place anyway- one of them could be the mother.

1) The Hylians siring pure Gerudo is speculation.
2) The Gerudos' ability to populate their species through incest with Ganondorf is speculation.

Both arguments cannot be decided with evidence from in the game since there are no quotes or visual references to support a definite conclusion. At this point, we use must common sense.

Originally Posted by LionHarted

They are the only two half-Gerudo Hylians, until you show me more examples.

If the half-Gerudo Hylians are simply Hylians with a single Gerudo trait, then what about half-Hylian Gerudos; Gerudos with a single Hylian trait? After all, there is no evidence for a concept of "pure-blood Gerudo" either. My interpretation is that all the Gerudo, including Ganondorf, are sired by Hylians so they are all examples of this.

Has anyone noticed that this argument is now about what we can't prove than what we actually can?

Of course. It's a Sage bloodline. Not a Sage race.

A race is based on bloodline; where characters pass their genes and spiritual power to their descendants. I do not argue that all the Sages in the Zelda timeline are biologically related because some Sages like Saria are obviously not part of a bloodline (unless the Great Deku Tree is an original Sage). However, for the Sages in ALTTP to have descendants, they would have had to have children not of their bloodline to pass this power on. The fact that this concept exists in the Zelda storyline means that it can be applied to other races/bloodlines such as the Gerudo who need Hylians for reproduction.

Challenge to Raian: Prove that all Gerudo are healthy.

If you mean "prove that all the Gerudo are not mutated freaks", then that's simple enough.
*Walks around the fortress.* No mutants that I can see... Yep, there is no evidence of mutation in the Gerudo gene pool.

I think the TalonxGerudo connection stemmed from a similar reaction from Nabooru, who claimed the mask looked like her then changes her mind, but the blue boy thing- I have no idea where that came from, you see a load of red haired women in the market place anyway- one of them could be the mother.

This connection is quite correct and I'm confident that the quotes are quite definitely meant to show Gerudo heritage. However, the way in which these quotes are expressed has to be as vague as it is remotely possible, even more so than the Triumph Forks title in TMC's library. But does Malon in TMC/FSA have a Gerudo mother as well with her red hair? I personally interpret the concept as an Easter Egg. It can be compared to how the Amazons sent rejected children back to their fathers, although in this instance, the children have to be Hylian instead of just men.

Originally Posted by Raian

1) The Hylians siring pure Gerudo is speculation.
2) The Gerudos' ability to populate their species through incest with Ganondorf is speculation.

Yes.

If the half-Gerudo Hylians are simply Hylians with a single Gerudo trait, then what about half-Hylian Gerudos

I was remiss in my description. There are no half-Gerudo Hylians, nor are there half-Hylian Gerudo. There are half-Gerudo/half-Hylians.

Originally Posted by Raian

My interpretation is that all the Gerudo, including Ganondorf, are sired by Hylians so they are all examples of this.

Then the fact that only one male is born every hundred years is a lie.

Originally Posted by Raian

A race is based on bloodline; where characters pass their genes and spiritual power to their descendants.

Bloodline =/= race.

To be part of someone's bloodline, you have to be a direct descendant of that person.
To be a part of that person's "race", you have to share cultural, ethnic, and biological characteristics. Curiously enough, "race" connotes a familial descent.

Originally Posted by Raian

I do not argue that all the Sages in the Zelda timeline are biologically related because some Sages like Saria are obviously not part of a bloodline (unless the Great Deku Tree is an original Sage).

What? Why can't the Kokiri have a bloodline?

If you mean "prove that all the Gerudo are not mutated freaks", then that's simple enough.
*Walks around the fortress.* No mutants that I can see... Yep, there is no evidence of mutation in the Gerudo gene pool.

*walks around the fortress*
All the Gerudo we see are warriors or guards. We don't see any children, elders, etc. etc. Are we to assume that there are no Gerudo children or elders? And, therefore, are we to assume that the Gerudo we see in game are the only Gerudo that exist?

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

*walks around the fortress*
All the Gerudo we see are warriors or guards. We don't see any children, elders, etc. etc. Are we to assume that there are no Gerudo children or elders? And, therefore, are we to assume that the Gerudo we see in game are the only Gerudo that exist?

Umm, lex... with this you also mean that because you see two half-Gerudo/half-Hylian doesn't mean they are the only ones.

However you are right when you say that a boy being born every hundred years is a lie, UNLESS, they mean a boy with Gerudo traits is born every 100 years.

If we are to follow our common sense then it is possible the incest, and the fact that they also go to Hyrule to look for "bouyfriends" to have children, Gerudo girls. Making reference to amazon culture, if the child is a male they sent him back with his father, could be the same with the Gerudos, and for the girls, if they dont have the Gerudo "standards" (red hair, dark skin). could also be sent to their father.

First of all, the thread title is an appeal to consequences of a belief, which is a logical fallacy. You're presenting my position in a negative light and expecting that to be justification for it being incorrect. "This line of 'reasoning' is fallacious because the consequences of a belief have no bearing on whether the belief is true or false."

I think I'm in love <3

Please come over to the Debate forum more

Incest is pretty common place in mythology so I don't see the issue. There's even incest in the Bible if you swing that way! And most certainly in evolution.

Originally Posted by Vaati 2705

Umm, lex... with this you also mean that because you see two half-Gerudo/half-Hylian doesn't mean they are the only ones.

But until we see other half-Gerudo, half-Hylians, we can't assume that any exist with Gerudo traits. Whereas we can assume that if a Gerudo female breeds with a Gerudo male, the child will have Gerudo traits. That's called common sense.

Hylian + Hylian = Hylian
Gerudo + Gerudo = Gerudo
Hylian + Gerudo = Hylian-Gerudo

Eventually all the Gerudo would become "Hylian-Gerudos", and, as they continue to breed primarily with Hylians, the Hylian gene pool would dominate. It would take only a few generations. If the Gerudo are to survive until FSA, which they do, through a period of hundreds of years, mind you, this cannot happen. Now, if you wanted to use the Gerudo+Hylian unions as a case for the thinning of Hylian blood, go right ahead. That actually makes sense from a genetic standpoint.

Originally Posted by Vaati

and for the girls, if they dont have the Gerudo "standards" (red hair, dark skin). could also be sent to their father.

Show me an example of a Hylian-Gerudo who meets the "Gerudo 'standards'", and you might could make a case for their existence.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Now, if you wanted to use the Gerudo+Hylian unions as a case for the thinning of Hylian blood, go right ahead. That actually makes sense from a genetic standpoint.

That may be what happened to the Hylian bloodline......except that there aren't any dark skinned people in games after TWW.

Originally Posted by Daphnes

That may be what happened to the Hylian bloodline......except that there aren't any dark skinned people in later games.

But there are some redheads. Din in Oracle of Seasons, for example, and Ralph in Oracle of Ages and the Maidens in ALttP and the Merchants in LoZ, and even debatably Link/Zelda in LoZ/AoL--all have darker-than-blonde hair.

You are right there is no proof, however please explain how is it possible to keep a race for hundreads of years with one male every hundread years.

Also the "one boy every hundread years" could be a mythological way of saying "the time gap between a male child and another is huge". On the bible Jesus uses this sort of explanation to say that one must always forgive others, Mathew 18:22 (this is not a theory I'm just brainstorming here).

Originally Posted by Vaati 2705

You are right there is no proof, however please explain how is it possible to keep a race for hundreads of years with one male every hundread years.

One male, lots of women. Women are the one who bear children, not males. Males just sire them. A man can sire a lot of children in his lifetime. Now, he's got to have a pretty long life expectancy and a very high endurance and ability to withstand what for others would be lethal, because the Gerudo are fairly screwed if he dies. Ganondorf has demonstrated all of these things.

Man, Ganondorf would have to be really active. Makes me wonder why he's always so angry. Maybe he's gay?

Originally Posted by Kittie Rose

Man, Ganondorf would have to be really active. Makes me wonder why he's always so angry.

As the bard once said: "The man who gets everything he wants will always want more."

Originally Posted by Raian

because there are a couple of half-Gerudo Hylians in the game, such as Malon.

Woah woah... enlighten me as to where this BS came from. The is not a single character in ANY zelda game that even gives a slight hint to being half Gerudo. More or less an obvious Hylian such as Malon.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

Woah woah... enlighten me as to where this BS came from. The is not a single character in ANY zelda game that even gives a slight hint to being half Gerudo. More or less an obvious Hylian such as Malon.

Talon makes a comment when you talk to him wearing the Gerudo mask about you looking like his wife, then tries to take it back. Similarly, one of the red-haired men in Hyrule Town makes a similar comment about you reminding him of his mother. It seems all redheaded Hylians have Gerudo mothers.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

Yes. I was remiss in my description. There are no half-Gerudo Hylians, nor are there half-Hylian Gerudo. There are half-Gerudo/half-Hylians.

The fact that only one physical trait connects to the Gerudo implies dominance in one form or another.

Then the fact that only one male is born every hundred years is a lie.

As I said before, one male Gerudo is born every 100 years. This rule does not apply to half-breeds.

Bloodline =/= race.

To be part of someone's bloodline, you have to be a direct descendant of that person.
To be a part of that person's "race", you have to share cultural, ethnic, and biological characteristics. Curiously enough, "race" connotes a familial descent.

The point I am trying to get across is that defining characteristics don't disappear just because one of those parents doesn't have that characteristic.

If a Sage and a non-Sage create a Sage, then why can't a Gerudo and a non-Gerudo create a Gerudo?

What? Why can't the Kokiri have a bloodline?

I was about to cover this in my next topic, but since you asked. The Kokiri are not people in the sense that the Hylians, Gorons or Zoras are people. The Kokiri are "forest spirits" (stated in OoT). They were given life by the Great Deku Tree and they never grow up.

In other words, the Kokiri have a similar rebirth and bloodline system like the Knights of Hyrule and the Sages, but central to this is the Deku Tree. He was reborn in OoT and he gave life to the Kokiri.

*walks around the fortress*
All the Gerudo we see are warriors or guards. We don't see any children, elders, etc. etc. Are we to assume that there are no Gerudo children or elders? And, therefore, are we to assume that the Gerudo we see in game are the only Gerudo that exist?

We can assume the obvious. Children and elders, yes. Mutants, no.