Poll: Are the Gerudo committing incest in OoT?

Seeing as I haven't really been doing anything in timeline research lately, I think I'll start discussing this. I'll do a bit of research first about life in the Middle East and various other things, and then I'll jump in here to support whichever side I support.

Edit: Okay, I'll need to know who supports what side and for what reasons. I think that'll help us out. Oh, and as for incest. We're going with the meaning of "having sexual relations with a closely related person," right? As in a close family member, correct?

Originally Posted by Master of ALttP

Seeing as I haven't really been doing anything in timeline research lately, I think I'll start discussing this. I'll do a bit of research first about life in the Middle East and various other things, and then I'll jump in here to support whichever side I support.

Edit: Okay, I'll need to know who supports what side and for what reasons. I think that'll help us out. Oh, and as for incest. We're going with the meaning of "having sexual relations with a closely related person," right? As in a close family member, correct?

LionHarted has the theory that all the Gerudo are populating their race through Ganondorf alone because there are two half-Gerudo Hylians which, according to him, prove that the Gerudo cannot create pure Gerudo through them.

No one supports this theory as yet. I'm the one violently against it because I think the argument is not only one of the most speculated I have seen but the conclusion goes against even the basic principles of most Mature-rated games. There is no explanation for how or why Nintendo would do such a thing.

If there has been one positive from the argument, it has been that we now understand how the Gerudo are based as much on Amazonian culture as well as Arabian culture. This is all on LOZ Historian's topic as well.

Originally Posted by Raian

LionHarted has the theory that all the Gerudo are populating their race through Ganondorf alone because there are two half-Gerudo Hylians which, according to him, prove that the Gerudo cannot create pure Gerudo through them.

Then I guess we're gonna have to oppose him, right? I mean, sure, there's some incest. But it's not all just incest. We have proof that Gerudos go find boyfriends in the Market, and that's probably because Ganondorf has become rather unattractive among the Gerudo.

No one supports this theory as yet. I'm the one violently against it because I think the argument is not only one of the most speculated I have seen but the conclusion goes against even the basic principles of most Mature-rated games. There is no explanation for how or why Nintendo would do such a thing.

It doesn't matter if the concept is mature or not. You're seeing that the theory cannot be right just because the actual belief and practice of this is looked down upon in our society. You are using unreasonable logic to defend your cause.

If there has been one positive from the argument, it has been that we now understand how the Gerudo are based as much on Amazonian culture as well as Arabian culture. This is all on LOZ Historian's topic as well.

Moreso on the Arabians.

Originally Posted by Master of ALttP

Then I guess we're gonna have to oppose him, right? I mean, sure, there's some incest. But it's not all just incest. We have proof that Gerudos go find boyfriends in the Market, and that's probably because Ganondorf has become rather unattractive among the Gerudo.

But where is the evidence of incest? Ganondorf is the Gerudo's leader, they worship him in sprit, some don't follow him still like Nabooru. The entire concept of incest is completely contrived.

It doesn't matter if the concept is mature or not. You're seeing that the theory cannot be right just because the actual belief and practice of this is looked down upon in our society. You are using unreasonable logic to defend your cause.

It's not unreasonable to assume that Nintendo would not place Mature-rated concepts into an E-rated game. Can you really imagine Miyamoto saying "More incest, people!"? Also, the use of "looked down upon in our society" is a complete understatement. It is so frowned upon that we just don't conceive it in modern society.

Moreso on the Arabians.

You would think that, wouldn't you.

Now, let me show you why the Gerudo are obviously based upon the Amazons.

Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons

In Greek mythology, the Amazons (Αμαζόνες) were either an ancient legendary nation of female warriors or a land dominated by women at the outer edges of their known world.

In some versions, no men were permitted to reside in Amazon country; but once a year, in order to prevent their race from dying out, they visited the Gargareans, a neighbouring tribe. The male children who were the result of these visits were either put to death or sent back to their fathers; the females were kept and brought up by their mothers, and trained in agricultural pursuits, hunting, and the art of war (Strabo xi. p. 503).

-They are female warriors.
-They live on the outer edges of the known world.
-They are dominated by women.
-No men are allowed inside the Amazon country.
-They travel abroad to find men to sire their children.
-The male children are sent back to their fathers and the females are trained as Amazons.

This is not denying the connections to the Arabians that do exist, such as the garb and the desert location but the structure of Amazonian society and Gerudo society are almost identical.

Who is the second half-gerudo? Where does OoT mention this?

Originally Posted by darthcucco

Who is the second half-gerudo? Where does OoT mention this?

Malon and a laughing boy in Hyrule Castle are the two examples of Hylians with Gerudo mothers. Follow the red hair.

Originally Posted by Raian

Malon and a laughing boy in Hyrule Castle are the two examples of Hylians with Gerudo mothers. Follow the red hair.

Is it explicitly stated that they are half-gerudo? Could they possibly be simple Hylian's with red hair, or Gerudo's brought up as Hylian?

Originally Posted by Raian

Now, let me show you why the Gerudo are obviously based upon the Amazons.



-They are female warriors.
-They live on the outer edges of the known world.
-They are dominated by women.
-No men are allowed inside the Amazon country.
-They travel abroad to find men to sire their children.
-The male children are sent back to their fathers and the females are trained as Amazons.

This is not denying the connections to the Arabians that do exist, such as the garb and the desert location but the Amazonian society and Gerudo society are almost identical.

Not taking sides just yet, but yours seemed the best to quote.

When the leader of the fortress, rather the one left in charge while Nabooru was at the temple, gave Link the card. I don't think I need to explain Link is male, so why would a simple card allow him access, and the Gerudo's didn't seem mad about it? Even if the leader said "OK" to him, don't you think one or two of them wouldn't be pleased with Link coming and going at will?

Darthcucco, in OOT wear the Gerudo Mask. Talk to Malon or I think Talon and they mention something about a wife/mother.
The guy in market thinks you are his mom when you wear it.

The Gerudo tribe believe that all men except Ganondorf are weak; it's Amazonian sexism. When Link showed off that he had potential as a thief, she allowed him to join the tribe.

Originally Posted by Vaati

Not taking sides just yet, but yours seemed the best to quote.

When the leader of the fortress, rather the one left in charge while Nabooru was at the temple, gave Link the card. I don't think I need to explain Link is male, so why would a simple card allow him access, and the Gerudo's didn't seem mad about it? Even if the leader said "OK" to him, don't you think one or two of them wouldn't be pleased with Link coming and going at will?

There is the fact that he defeated a lot of them, and that may make him seem "worthy" in their eyes, as opposed to weak and pathetic. Also, since they dislike Ganondorf, something makes me think that a male would be rather welcome in the fortress at that moment in time.

Originally Posted by Raian

The Gerudo tribe believe that all men are weak; it's Amazonian sexism. When Link showed off that he had potential as a thief, she allowed him to join the tribe.

Could you answer my question as well?

Originally Posted by darthcucco

Could you answer my question as well?

I did answer your question. Malon and the laughing boy in Hyrule Market are the two examples of half-Gerudo Hylians. Follow the red hair.

Turning on N64 now, i'll grab the quotes real quick, since I hate text dumps. Hold on 3 minutes and i'll edit this post.

Guy in market-

Uh-Oh! I'm sorry Mom!
Oh, its just you!
Don't scare me like that.

Talon-

Hey, that reminds me of my wife!
On second thought...no it doesn't.
It doesn't look like her at all!

It seems the guy has a Gerudo has a mother, and Talon a Gerudo as a wife. Making the guy in blue and Malon half Gerudo.

..It was more time because one of my files only had the bunny ears so I had to switch, and the other was on Adult Link.

Originally Posted by Raian

I did answer your question. Malon and the laughing boy in Hyrule Market are the two examples of half-Gerudo Hylians. Follow the red hair.

Yes, but I asked another after that.

Right, so is it possible that Malon is a Gerudo, but brought up as a Hylian.

Originally Posted by darthcucco

Right, so is it possible that Malon is a Gerudo, but brought up as a Hylian.

Well, the evidence is that she is a Hylian-Gerudo half-breed since she possesses the all Hylian characteristics but with Gerudo red hair.

The generally accepted explanation is that Gerudo go to Hyrule to find boyfriends and populate their species through them. The Gerudo can only reproduce female Gerudo until a male is born every 100 years; which sounds like a rule created by destiny rather than anything biological because every birth would normally be independent. However, it is possible that the rule is exempt when the Gerudo give birth to Hylians (through rare instances in the dominant-recessive gene concept) and so they are sent back to their fathers to live in Hylian-dominated society, in a similar respect to how the Amazons sent boys back to their fathers in male-dominated society.

Originally Posted by Raian

LionHarted has the theory that all the Gerudo are populating their race through Ganondorf alone because there are two half-Gerudo Hylians which, according to him, prove that the Gerudo cannot create pure Gerudo through them.

This is a straw man. Again. Honestly, stop misrepresenting my argument.

It's because the only examples we see of children born from Hylian fathers and Gerudo mothers are half-Gerudo Hylians. Until you prove that Gerudo children can be born of Hylian fathers, the burden of proof is on you to prove your theory correct. And since there are no examples of this, anything you say that assumes it is automatically entirely speculative.

See this:

Originally Posted by Raian

The generally accepted explanation is that Gerudo go to Hyrule to find boyfriends and populate their species through them. The Gerudo can only reproduce female Gerudo until a male is born every 100 years; which sounds like a rule created by destiny rather than anything biological because every birth would normally be independent. However, it is possible that the rule is exempt when the Gerudo give birth to Hylians (through rare instances in the dominant-recessive gene concept) and so they are sent back to their fathers to live in Hylian-dominated society, in a similar respect to how the Amazons sent boys back to their fathers in male-dominated society.

Speculative. Prove that Gerudo children can be born from Hylian fathers, or else you have no argument.

I, on the other hand, don't need to speculate that Gerudo children come from a mating between a Gerudo father and a Gerudo mother--that is obvious. My speculation lies in the fact that I argue that, because there's only one Gerudo male, to produce "pure" Gerudo heirs requires that they be born of this one Gerudo male. This is essentially the opposite argument to yours, based on the fact that your argument has no definitive proof to qualify it. An unfortunate consequence of this is incest, but it's only an underlying consequence; it's not the central tenet of the argument I'm making. Since the Gerudo are based heavily on the Arabian culture, any inclusions of aspects of Arabian culture that can be deemed plausible are admissible. Since the harem system is part of an older version of Arabian culture, it is fair game. Since the harem system involved polygyny, or a male heir inheriting his father's property, including his wives and servants, it's also fair game.

Raian, you seem to be suggesting that because polygyny and the harem system fall under the category of "socially unacceptable" they should not be deemed plausible. This is, again, foolish, because it falls under the "appeal to consequences of a belief" fallacy. Just because something has negative consequences does not make it any less plausible. Harems and polygyny do exist (and have in many ancient cultures), and I see no reason why they cannot take place in the background of a fantasy culture in a videogame.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

This is a straw man. Again. Honestly, stop misrepresenting my argument.

You claim that the Gerudo commit incest and I am against that. There is no misrepresentation.

It's because the only examples we see of children born from Hylian fathers and Gerudo mothers are half-Gerudo Hylians. Until you prove that Gerudo children can be born of Hylian fathers, the burden of proof is on you to prove your theory correct. And since there are no examples of this, anything you say that assumes it is automatically entirely speculative.

Likewise, the burden is on you to prove that the Gerudo can populate their people through incest. "And since there are no examples of this, anything you say that assumes it is automatically entirely speculative."

I, on the other hand, don't need to speculate that Gerudo children come from a mating between a Gerudo father and a Gerudo mother--that is obvious. My speculation lies in the fact that, because there's only one Gerudo male, to produce "pure" Gerudo heirs requires that they be born of this one Gerudo male. An unfortunate consequence of this is incest, but it's only an underlying consequence; it's not the central tenet of the argument I'm making. Since the Gerudo are based heavily on the Arabian culture, any inclusions of aspects of Arabian culture that can be deemed plausible are admissible. Since the harem system is part of an older version of Arabian culture, it is fair game. Since the harem system involved polygyny, or a male heir inheriting his father's property, including his wives and servants, it's also fair game.

Yes, except you are totally rewriting Arabian culture to fit in with your twisted views. The only connection that you have provided is that there is one man to rule over a tribe of women. There is no evidence to compare with harems beyond that and there is contrasting evidence to connect to the Amazons besides.

Raian, you seem to be suggesting that because polygyny and the harem system fall under the category of "socially unacceptable" they should not be deemed plausible. This is, again, foolish, because it falls under the "appeal to consequences of a belief" fallacy. Just because something has negative consequences does not make it any less plausible. Harem and polygyny do exist, and I see no reason why they cannot take place in the background of a fantasy culture in a videogame.

Polygymy and the harem system are acceptable because they are ways of life that have existed and in many respects, still exist today. Although Western society frowns upon it, polygymy is not unacceptable in both histories or stories of the culture. However, incest is not acceptable in any society. The only real example that ever been found of it is on a remote island where fathers had sex with their children as part of some self-invented Celtic rituals and those people have since been prosecuted by those outside of the island. There is no place in any worldwide culture for incest, especially those of the Arabians and the Amazons from whom the culture is based upon.

Originally Posted by Raian

You claim that the Gerudo commit incest and I am against that. There is no misrepresentation.

No. You misrepresented my opinion by presenting only half of one of my relevant justifications. I don't believe that the Gerudo populate through the sole male because there are two half-Gerudo half-Hylians who exhibit mostly Hylian traits, minus the red hair; it's because they're the only two known half-Gerudo, half-Hylians, and there are no examples of any such people who exhibit primarily Gerudo features.

Originally Posted by Raian

Likewise, the burden is on you to prove that the Gerudo can populate their people through incest.

All I'm suggesting is that "pure" Gerudo must come from a Gerudo-Gerudo mating union, where both father and mother are Gerudo. Since there is only one male, this unfortunately means incest.

I don't have to prove that they can. Again, incest does happen. I don't have to prove it. You've proven that Gerudo can populate through Hylians, but the only examples of this you have resulted in children with mostly Hylian traits. You have not proven that the Gerudo traits will persist in a Gerudo-Hylian mating union, and so the burden of proof still rests upon you to do so.

Originally Posted by Raian

Yes, except you are totally rewriting Arabian culture to fit in with your twisted views. The only connection that you have provided is that there is one man to rule over a tribe of women.

Because you ignored all the other ones.

Originally Posted by Raian

There is no evidence to compare with harems beyond that and there is contrasting evidence to connect to the Amazons besides.

There is evidence. You ignored it.

Also, the Amazons are an all-female race. The Gerudo are not all-female, because they have Ganondorf. This is a key contrast between the two, and utterly breaks about half your comparisons.

Originally Posted by Raian

However, incest is not acceptable in any society.

You absolutely fail at cultural history, my friend.

Link: Incest in History
Incest in Ancient Egypt
Incest in Royalty (includes harems)

It is totaly acceptable the fact that Gerudo are born from Gerudo-Gerudo (incest) relationships. Gerudo-Hylian children can't make pureblood Gerudos. Yes, it is speculation but its more likely than Gerudo-Hylian couples giving birth to pureblood Gerudos.

Also 100 years is a lot of years, its completly acceptable that Gerudos looked for Hylian boyfriends because of sexual needs; you don't need to respect someone in order to satisfy sexual needs with that person (prostitutes for example), and when the child is born sent him back with his father. Looks very plausible to me.

Peace Out.

Originally Posted by LexLionHart

No. You misrepresented my opinion by presenting only half of one of my relevant justifications. I don't believe that the Gerudo populate through the sole male because there are two half-Gerudo half-Hylians who exhibit mostly Hylian traits, minus the red hair; it's because they're the only two known half-Gerudo, half-Hylians, and there are no examples of any such people who exhibit primarily Gerudo features.

They are the only two half-Gerudo Hylians that possess Hylian qualities. There is no evidence that all Gerudo with Hylian fathers must also possess the Hylian genes to the same extent. The Sage bloodline works similarly. To gain the full power of a Sage, one does not have to be the descendant of two Sages. If there were an "original" seven Sages, then that means they must have passed on their power through non-Sages in order to keep the bloodline going.

All I'm suggesting is that "pure" Gerudo must come from a Gerudo-Gerudo mating union, where both father and mother are Gerudo. Since there is only one male, this unfortunately means incest.

According to your assumption.

I don't have to prove that they can. Again, incest does happen. I don't have to prove it. You've proven that Gerudo can populate through Hylians, but the only examples of this you have resulted in children with mostly Hylian traits. You have not proven that the Gerudo traits will persist in a Gerudo-Hylian mating union, and so the burden of proof still rests upon you to do so.

Yes, you do have to prove that the Gerudo can phsyically produce healthy babies through incest. It is entirely speculation otherwise since there are no comparisons to draw this from.

Because you ignored all the other ones.

There is evidence. You ignored it.

You mean I ignored all the evidence that you concocted? Using only the positive evidence that we actually see for ourselves in the game, the clothes, desert and male leader are the three things that we know to connect to the Arabians. Anything else, including harems, is assumption on your part. You have no positive evidence that Ganondorf is married, you have no positive evidence that Ganondorf has slaves. You assume that harems must exist and then create a whole load of assumptions on top of it.

Also, the Amazons are an all-female race. The Gerudo are not all-female, because they have Ganondorf. This is a key contrast between the two, and utterly breaks about half your comparisons.

It breaks one comparison; the fact that they are all-female. And I fail to understand how the existence of the one Gerudo male breaks their identity as an all-female tribe; they just exempt Ganondorf from the rules that they apply to every other man. "All men are useless except for the great Ganondorf."

Originally Posted by Raian

They are the only two half-Gerudo Hylians that possess Hylian qualities.

They are the only two half-Gerudo Hylians, until you show me more examples.

Originally Posted by Raian

The Sage bloodline works similarly. To gain the full power of a Sage, one does not have to be the descendant of two Sages. If there were an "original" seven Sages, then that means they must have passed on their power through non-Sages in order to keep the bloodline going.

Of course. It's a Sage bloodline. Not a Sage race.

Originally Posted by Raian

Yes, you do have to prove that the Gerudo can phsyically produce healthy babies through incest. It is entirely speculation otherwise since there are no comparisons to draw this from.

Not all products of incest are unhealthy.

Originally Posted by Raian

Using only the positive evidence that we actually see for ourselves in the game, the clothes, desert and male leader are the three things that we know to connect to the Arabians. Anything else, including harems, is assumption on your part.

The only positive evidence we see for ourselves in the game is that the race is a female warrior-race, and the females sometimes mate with males. Anything else, including an assimilation of female offspring into the Gerudo tribe, etc. etc, is assumption on your part.