The "Replacement" Theory

This is a theory I've cooked up in regards to the Ocarina of Time -> Majora's Mask -> TP/WW problem.

Though everyone knows that this is how the timeline goes (this is, in fact, the only 100% confirmed part of the whole thing), there is still confusion, even with the developers, regarding OoT's paradox ending.

When it comes to time travel, it is generally accepted that, for example, if you're in 2006, and you go back in time to 2004, everything that happened in those two years will happen as they did the first time unless you interfere (see the Back to the Future trilogy). This is generally common sense with time travel theories.

It is this common sense that makes the ending of Ocarina of Time so confusing. As an adult, Link awakens the sages, defeats Ganondorf, and Zelda and the sages seal the King of Evil into what was once the Sacred Realm and is now the Evil Realm. Once Ganondorf is gone, Zelda uses the Ocarina of Time to send Link back to his child years. We see the credits, where everyone from the adult period is celebrating in Lon Lon Ranch, and then we see child Link appear in the Temple of Time, Navi flies away, he leaves; we hear the Door of Time close. Next scene, Link is meeting Zelda in what is clearly a repeat of his first meeting with her, and here is where the game stops.

Common sense dictates that the events following this ending scene will continue as they did in the game- Ganondorf will attack the castle, Link will be sealed by the Master Sword for seven years, etc. The only thing different between Link's first meeting with Zelda in-game and his first meeting with Zelda at the ending is Navi, who is absent during the ending visit, but, really, does she make that much of a difference?

But then you have Majora's Mask. Taking place a short time after OoT, we see Link traveling to another world when he gets assaulted by Skullkid and Epona is taken.

This is all well and good, but what does this mean for the timeline? Isn't Link supposed to be sleeping with the Master Sword right now? Did the time travel create a paradox in which there are two Links? If not, and there is only one Link, and he's over here in Termina, then where in the world is Ganondorf? Why would Link leave Hyrule in search of a valuable friend (Navi or Skullkid, your pick) if Ganondorf is, as common sense dictates, still at large?

It's a matter of confusion. However, I recently noticed some things that have allowed me to come up with what could be a valid explanation.

Look back at Ocarina of Time. Every time Link needed to travel through time, he'd use the Master Sword. Put the Master Sword in the pedestal to go back to the child period from where he left off (after Zelda and Impa's escape), and pull the Master Sword out of the pedestal to go forward to the adult years.

(Interesting note: Link's body changes depending on what time he's gone, which suggests (to me, anyway) that it's simply his spirit that's going back and forth, and not his body. This doesn't make complete sense in regards to items in bottles and such, but it's just something I noticed.)

Okay, so Link used the Master Sword to time travel. But at the end of the game, Zelda uses the Ocarina of Time (playing Zelda's Lullaby) to send Link back.

What does this have to do with anything?

Well, look at Majora's Mask. It uses time travel. Link uses the Ocarina of Time (playing the Song of Time) to travel back in time. And, very important to note, the game makes a very large use of the "common sense" theory I described above). Here's the thing, though... technically, if child Link goes back in time, he should see Deku Link. Time travel doesn't exactly dictate that going back or forward in time causes you to "replace" yourself (in fact, the common theory is that now there will be "copies" of you), but this seems to be what happens with Link- he replaces himself at the Dawn of the 1st Day.

But everything reverts back to its original state. The only permanent changes Link makes are to himself (his equipment and items). Nobody knows he's traveling through time. In fact, everybody does exactly what they did the first time Link passed through the three days. A prime example of this is the confrontation with Skullkid on the Clock Tower, when he hits Tael. The first time you do this, Tatl says

Nooo!!
What are you doing to my brother?

Skull Kid, do you still think you're our friend after that?!!?

The second time...

...I've had enough.

You hit my brother over and over!
I'll never forgive you!!

Every time after that...

!!!

That's it!
I won't let things go the way you expect them to!

A similar difference in exchange occurs between Tael and Tatl when Majora's Mask reveals itself as a living entity.

Originally Posted by the first time

Tael: Wait...Sis...Don't... Don't be so hard on the Skull Kid.
Tatl: Tael! Why are you protecting him! Aren't you mad at him for hitting you so much?
Tael: He was lonely... ...the Skull Kid.
Tatl: He was trying to destroy everything around him! That is not the same as a lonely child! We can't allow that!

Originally Posted by the second time

Tael: Wait...Sis... The Skull Kid...Don't blame him!
Tatl: Yeah, yeah. I know... The Skull Kid was lonely 'cause nobody would be his friend. Blah, blah, blah... And the power of the mask made him do it 'cause it was too much for him to handle...
Tael: How? ...How did you know that, sis?

This establishes that Majora's Mask uses the common sense theory. The only people who change are Link and Tatl, because they are the ones traveling through time. Tael has no memory of telling Tatl about the powers of the mask before, and is thus surprised that she knows about it.

So, that's all pretty straight-forward, right? When Link and Tatl go back in time, the only things they really change are themselves...

and the giants.

This is the thing I noticed that started me on this theory. When Link defeats the four bosses, he gets their remains, in the form of a mask. Odolwa's Remains, Goht's Remains, Gyorg's Remains, and Twinmolds's Remains. Upon receiving these masks, you are told...

You have just freed the innocent spirit that this dark mask had kept imprisoned within the body of evil [boss name here]

and then (the first time you beat the boss) you are transported to a strange realm where you speak to the giants.

Here's the thing, though. If all of the things Link and Tatl do get reset when they travel back through time, why are the giants (and therefore the bosses) the exception? Technically, once you go back to the 1st day, the giants should still be sealed within the "dark mask[s]" of each boss, thus making them unavailable to answer the Call to Order.

Even stranger is the fact that, if you defeat a boss, get his remains, and then return to the temple with those remains, you'll be told...

Ye who hold my remains... Return to the appointed place to face me...

At which point a teleport is activated and you can have a rematch with the boss, which, while in keeping with the common sense theory, doesn't explain how the boss knows you have his remains. Clearly, the boss seems to understand the paradox here, which is why he asks you to "return to the appointed place to face" him... but the rematches are not necessary to call upon the giants.

Because of this, I've come up with a theory, in which... when Link uses the Ocarina of Time to go back in time, certain events go back with him. The freeing of the Giants' spirits... and the sealing of Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm.

Another thing: I'm sure it's been noticed that when Zelda sends Link back at the end of OoT, he arrives at a point in time earlier than the "point he left off"- that is, before he met Zelda at all, and before he got the other two Spiritual Stones.

My theory basically states that, when the Ocarina of Time is used to travel back in time, it will take certain events and "replace" prior events with them. When Zelda used the Ocarina of Time at the end of OoT, she "replaced" Ganondorf's attack on Hyrule and his seven-year-rule with the fact that he's been sealed (and, in conjunction, this probably causes the sages to be replaced with their awakened selves, which would then allow the Hero of Time to become a legend). When Link used the Ocarina of Time in Majora's Mask, he "replaced" himself, and the fact that the giants were sealed.

I'm not sure how off-the-mark I am here... what do you guys think?

yeah your theroy is the only one that makes sense.thx for explaining it.but where does links awakening oracle of ages and seaosons and wind waker and legend of zelda and gasp gasp must breathe. anywho what about all the other games i forgot. im sure it took a long time to make this post but where does everyrthing else fit in? you did a good job with this post and maybe you can make another one to explain everything else plzzz.

How does the defeat of Ganon get translated to the past under the "replacement" theory? From what I can tell, Ganon's defeat (much less his rise to power in the first place) should never happen at all under your system of time travel. The freeing of the Giants' spirits goes back with Link because he carries the boss masks in which they reside--he literally carries them back with him. That's why you actually obtain the boss masks...

I will agree that, in the very end, time travel using the Ocarina winds up replacing Link in OoT, but I don't see how it replaces the events that happened in the future. I should think that it would simply allow Link to go about his life despite the fact that he's got to go into the future to defeat Ganon. (So a second Link is sleeping in the Realm.)

Why would Link leave Hyrule in search of a valuable friend (Navi or Skullkid, your pick) if Ganondorf is, as common sense dictates, still at large?

Because Adult Link is going to come forth in seven years to defeat him anyway?

Like Lionharted said, when Link gets the mask he is taking the giants with him. They are sealed in the mask until you use the Oath to Order at the end. When the giants are talking to him I think they are communicating mentally, not in person. Or else he could just mentally communicate with them instead of playing the song.

Originally Posted by Ricky of Kokiri

Another thing: I'm sure it's been noticed that when Zelda sends Link back at the end of OoT, he arrives at a point in time earlier than the "point he left off"- that is, before he met Zelda at all, and before he got the other two Spiritual Stones.

Hmmm? When he is sent back he sets the Mastersword back in the Pedistal of Time. How can this happen if he didn't have the other two stones? I doubt there is some button you press if you somehow get on the other side with it closed.

Argument A: OOT =/= MM
The timetravel methods in OOT are completely different from those in MM, and relating them is foolhardy and pretentious.

OOT travel
Prinicple items: Master Sword, Pedastel of Time, Ocarina of Time (sub)
Other involved parties: None, Zelda (sub)
Timeline effect: Hostory is preserved
Time intervel: 7 years
Back travel method: Physical transport with physical alteration
Forward travel method: Sacred Realm containment

MM travel:
Prinicple items: Ocarina of time
Other involved parties: Godess of Time
Timeline effect: Peice of timestream rewound and rewritten
Time interval: up to 72 hours
Back travel method: Physical transport with no alteration
Forward travel method: Physical transport with no alteration

The only simmilarity is the one substitution Ocarina of Time, but that hardly counts for anything. Both the Song of Soaring and the Bolero of Fire use the Ocarina, but the SoS will never bring you to the Fire Temple.
In truth, the two methods were conceived years apart, for two very distinct storylines, for two very different reasons. There is no reason to imagine that they are the same.

Argument B: The OOT timeline is immutable.
You suggest that, like back to the future, it is possible to alter an event of the past, and, in doing so, change the course of the future, this is what we call a "mutable" timeline. It is not the way the Zelda universe works.
Instead, much like Harry Potter 3 or All you Zombies the Zelda timeline is fixed, "immutable".

Proof of this can be found in the Windmill man. In a mutable timeline, his past would not include the actions of a "traveler" until the traveler had altered them. The fact that his past already includes the Travel effects shows that these effects occur in all instances of the timeline, and they cannot be changed by the actions of the traveler (in fatc, the traveler will eventually conform to the actions himself)
(Yes, its a crap explanation, but this is something you kind of have to grasp for yourself, reading either of the stories will better your understandin)

It is logically impossible for a timeline to be both mutable and immutable, and if Zelda is an immutable timeline, then it is impossible for Link to take events with him as he travles and "alter" the past.

Argument C: Link arrives in the Past after he left
Before Zelda ships Link off, she implores him "you must close the Door of Time".
Zelda would never, ever, follow this order by sending him to a point in time where the Door of time was not already open.
From this we can conclude that she sends Link into the past to apoint after he had collected the stones, opened the DoT, and allowed Ganon to enter the SR.

Argument D: Link leaves while Ganon waits
It has always been Ganon's stratagy to hold his attack until he was absolutely sure of victory. He bides his time, solidifies his hold, and when he has become overwhlmingly owerful, he attacks.
A maiden states this straight up in AlttP.
Why would things be any different in OOT? After ganon enter the Sr and takes the Triforce, he would hardly be rash enough to immediately strike Hyrule. It is his style to learn the full scope of his new powers, maintian a complete hoild on the Golden Land, and work darkly from behind the scenes until the moment of his final strike.

After he first grabs the Triforce in OOT, Ganon spends months, maybe years planning in the Sacred Realm. He then takes all of Hyrule in one fell swoop, dominating everything (except the chamber of sages, as Rauru point out) in both worlds.

During this downtime for Ganon, Link (the link from the future, his counterpart is still asleep in the SR) and Zelda are free to beleive what they will. They're just kids, after all, and living just 3 Ganon free months would be more than enough to give them a flas sence of security.

Convinced that closing the Door of Time has ended his troubles, Link decides to pursue other things. He travels to Termina and beyond, eventually leaving Hyrule for good.
When Ganon makes his big push, there is no one there to stop him. Zelda flees with Impa and the only hope left for Hyrule is the sleeping link in the SR.

I'm pretty sure this eliminates all your misgivings on the Ganon situation, yes?

A more accurate way of summarizing argument B is this: "Time Travel Within OoT (the game) Does Not 'Mute' Events", since we see that time in MM is not immutable. Nice job, PIE.

Yeah well, its kind of har to maintain immutability when you get a diety involved, but you're right.

Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE

Yeah well, its kind of har to maintain immutability when you get a diety involved, but you're right.

Divine intervention defies all logic, indeed.

Also, I realize now that you can't just classify time travel by item--time travel in OoT uses Zelda's power and the power of the Master Sword, while time travel in MM uses the power of the goddess of time. We can assume that we can classify them by game--since the effects can be classified by game.

Eh, all right. Like I said, it was something I came up with when I noticed the giants, but I failed to take the masks into account. Thanks for setting me straight on all of that.

Originally Posted by Ricky of Kokiri

Eh, all right. Like I said, it was something I came up with when I noticed the giants, but I failed to take the masks into account. Thanks for setting me straight on all of that.

Now then, "replacement" can apply to Link in MM, and perhaps, to a degree, Link in the OoT past.

Even is time travel were possible, you could not change time. If I wanted to change something, and I travelled back in time, I would evidently fail in my attempt as otherwise I would have witnessed myself first time round, and would have succeeded.

Unfortunately, TSA, GanonBanned inventor, is a major reason the laymen DTer still beleives: http://www.zhq2.com/eiji_exclusive_part1.shtml; Second to last paragrapgh, last sentence.

TSA, of course, never spoke to Aonuma at all. It was some stupid site joke. But, well, it got the ball rolling...

Note: Sorry mmmmmPIE. I accidentally erased my post before yours and had to repost it
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Time traveling is just too complicated and confusingly to mechanical for Nintendo to make a consistant stablizing timeline for the series.

Question to all Split Timeline Theorist:

Why the hell do you even try anymore. Your timeline theory has been dissmissed and proven outdated here at ZU. You and your universal explanations of time traveling S.U.C.K. - That stands for: Split Universes Colt Knowledge.

Your all GANNON-BANNED!!! (Look at my sig my dear adversaries .)

Originally Posted by LOZ Historian

Question to all Split Timeline Theorist:

Why the hell do you even try anymore. Your timeline theory has been dissmissed and proven outdated here at ZU. You and your universal explanations of time traveling S.U.C.K. - That stands for: Split Universes Colt Knowledge.

Your all GANNON-BANNED!!! (Look at my sig my dear adversaries .)

LOZHistorian, you have never travelled back in time. You do not possess blueprints for time-travel. Logic on it's own basis is not evidence because it is in all due respect, opinion (or as opponents would call it, "flawed logic"). In other words, you have not proved a single timeline on ZU.

The only reason why the split timeline theories are dismissed on ZU is because those who possess the dominant ideology on the board (i.e. the Wise Men and their followers) gang up to shout them down. I know this because I have seen the veterans at gamefaqs do exactly the same thing with their split timeline theory.

The fact is that for all the speculating that goes on here, there is no clear or definite reference to a receding of the Great Flood within TWW's script at all. So until PH does reference the FS saga (and that is IF PH references the FS saga), there will always be people who cannot accept an unflooding as a possibility. At this point, the split timeline remains the only sensible option.

This is not a personal attack, I just think any use of the word "proof" in the context of time-travel is just lying to yourself and others. Wait until we get some proof outside the context of time travel before we actually start claiming victory.

Originally Posted by jhurvid

LOZHistorian, you have never travelled back in time. You do not possess blueprints for time-travel. Logic on it's own basis is not evidence because it is in all due respect, opinion (or as opponents would call it, "flawed logic"). In other words, you have not proved a single timeline on ZU.

Its because of Split Timeline Theoist like you that annoy the heel out of me with all the damn mathmatics behind explaining you r theroy. Don't tell ME I'm the one using mathmatics to explain the "blueprints" of how time works universaly once traveled through!!! That is what YOU Split timeline Theoruist do, and I don't except you scientific inductive reasoning behind it all.

You all feign to see historical refernces that allow a existing Hyrule to exist after WW. ANd you all fail to see that Nintendo and Anouma are moving away from Myamoto's sloppy uncaring views of Zelda chronology that spawned your damn theroy. The timeline has changed directions many of times since Miyamoto's days, and Anouma is fixing his mistakes. A linear timeline is more sensible and less complicated for Nintedo's use and all you theroist out there know it!

Originally Posted by LOZ Historian

Its because of Split Timeline Theoist like you that annoy the heel out of me with all the damn mathmatics behind explaining you r theroy. Don't tell ME I'm the one using mathmatics to explain the "blueprints" of how time works universaly once traveled through!!! That is what YOU Split timeline Theoruist do, and I don't except you scientific inductive reasoning behind it all.

You all feign to see historical refernces that allow a existing Hyrule to exist after WW. ANd you all fail to see that Nintendo and Anouma are moving away from Myamoto's sloppy uncaring views of Zelda chronology that spawned your damn theroy. The timeline has changed directions many of times since Miyamoto's days, and A