Why ALttP is BEFORE Wind Waker

Now, I have been hearing that WW is before ALttP, due to some silly text at the end of ALttp back when WW didn't exist. I'm here to prove that wrong.

1. Hylians
So, I took a brief look around windfall island. I say I looked; actually I examined the ears of the villagers in the auction house. Oh, look- all of them were pointed. I'm still finding more evidence from this but the WW legend says that the chosen people of the gods were told to take refuge on the mountaintops. Those were the hylians- voices of the gods, anyone? - and if there are any non-hylian humanoids (excluding Rito and Koroks etc.) this can easily be explained.

Think back to the beginning if WW. Tetra says that a bunch of pirates lived in the forsaken fortress- which has a similar position on the map to gerudo fortress, no? It seems likely to me that at least some Gerudo's survived the flood.

2. Hyrule Castle

It has a moat. So does AlttP's castle. Meaning the castle that was built after Ganon was overthrown- if you remember the old hyrule castle was destroyed- was the one in ALttP. Again, I'm still researching this.

3. Hylian Text in MC

This is pretty simple. In WW modern Hylian seems to be a commonly written language but not spoken. Now, it must have been used before the flood, as the Deku tree call it "the ancient tongue" and even says seeing Link- who looks exactly like the hero of time- causes him to start speaking it. Now this could mean that modern Hylian is simply a refined version of old hylian, for use in more recent games in the series, and was supposedly used in ocarina of time, despite not appearing in the game. It seems perfectly reasonable to set MC in the time when modern hylian was spoken commonly.

And that looks more like modern hylian to me...

This is a work in progress. Please comment.

Originally Posted by darthcucco

So, I took a brief look around windfall island. I say I looked; actually I examined the ears of the villagers in the auction house. Oh, look- all of them were pointed. I'm still finding more evidence from this but the WW legend says that the chosen people of the gods were told to take refuge on the mountaintops. Those were the hylians- voices of the gods, anyone? - and if there are any non-hylian humanoids (excluding Rito and Koroks etc.) this can easily be explained.

This point is weak at best. Kokiri, Gerudo, and Sheikah all have pointed ears, and none of them are Hylian. Therefore, pointed ears do not necessarily denote that someone is Hylian. Pointed ears are a Hylian trait, but they seem to have been commonplace in Hyrule throughout the series, even after the Hylians are said to be extinct. If nothing else, people having pointed ears in TWW discourages it from coming after ALttP, which refers to the Hylian blood as being thinned.

It has a moat. So does AlttP's castle.

So does OoT's castle. In fact, anything built AFTER OoT would have have a moat, since there's now a crater where the old castle used to be.

In WW modern Hylian seems to be a commonly written language but not spoken. Now, it must have been used before the flood, as the Deku tree call it "the ancient tongue" and even says seeing Link- who looks exactly like the hero of time- causes him to start speaking it.

The use of the Hylian text in the text boxes is simply to denote that the character is speaking in a language unknown to the player (Link). The Hylian text used in the text boxes is not necessarily the "Ancient Tongue" spoken of by the Deku Tree.

Of course, the fact that the most recent Hero was the hero from OoT (Hero of Time) should be evidence enough that TWW is OoT's sequel, even if you ignore the developers confirming that that's where it goes.

Those points aren't good enough. Although, tWW castle does share a resemblence to the ALttP castle, especially on the inside.

If ALttP comes after tWW, then ALttP's land would probably not be Hyrule, even though it was called Hyrule in the game. tWW claimed that there would be no Hyrule after the game ended, and the game ended with the destruction of Hyrule. The land would probably be a new land, and not the same Hyrule...

Originally Posted by Andross

If ALttP comes after tWW, then ALttP's land would probably not be Hyrule, even though it was called Hyrule in the game. tWW claimed that there would be no Hyrule after the game ended, and the game ended with the destruction of Hyrule. The land would probably be a new land, and not the same Hyrule...

It has to be the same land:

Originally Posted by ALttP (Japanese)

Here in Hyrule, there remain many ruins of the Hylian people, and this area/region is related to the myth.
[...]
Long before now, a people called the Hylians prospered in this land...

They say that in this country, a few remaining treasures of that people are hidden away...

I've heard that the Master Sword is also one of those, a sword specially forged to oppose those with demonic powers.

ALttP takes place in the same land in which the Hylian people lived. The existence of the Master Sword there (after being buried in Ganon's head at the bottom of the Sea in TWW) is evidence of this.

Well, that means that tWW introduced a contradiction...

For instance, Hyrule seemed to be stable underwater, but at the end, the castle and everything were drowned and flooded...

Also, the last conversation between the king and the children went like this:

"We will discover a new Hyrule."

"No... That land won't be Hyrule... It will be your land."

"I have spreaded the seeds of the future..."

So, yeah, maybe the plotline contradicted itself, if Hyrule was drained.

What I don't get is, if the theory that Hyrule was drained and it was the same Hyrule, not a new one, is correct, how all the trees and stuff exist... Hyrule would probably be some sort of big old swampy place for a couple hundred of years, at least...

If you could explain that part to me, it would be nice.

Originally Posted by Andross

What I don't get is, if the theory that Hyrule was drained and it was the same Hyrule, not a new one, is correct, how all the trees and stuff exist... Hyrule would probably be some sort of big old swampy place for a couple hundred of years, at least...

If you could explain that part to me, it would be nice.

Hence, why there are swamps in TMC, FSA, and ALttP. Yes. You've got it now. <.<

Trees can grow back, buildings can be rebuilt--but artifacts, like the Master Sword, much less artifacts that remain from the Hylian age cannot be rebuilt.

Why ALttP is AFTER Wind Waker.

1) Hylians are still more prominant than humans in TWW, but in ALttP Hylian blood has run thin.
2) It has been officially confirmed that part of the timeline goes OoT-MM-TP-TWW-PH. Unless you are suggesting ALttP is before OoT, then your theory can't work.

Also, regarding Hyrule draining. Yes, it drained, but only partially, there was still an ocean, but it was shallow enough that Hyrule was exposed to sunlight again. Evidence of this is what LionHarted has already said, and the fact that the Master Sword has changed colour: it's gone from it's traditional blue to red and brown. This can be explained by the Great Sea rusting the hilt of the MS before the Great Sea partially drained.

But, in the Alttp origional Walkthrough, it said that the master sword was made DURING the imprisoning war. THe imprisoning war, in which Ganondorf slipped into the sacred realm, and took the triforce, and was then imprisoned in the sacred realm for several centuries. You don't think Ganondorf got out during those centuries, hyrule was flooded, more centuries passed, wind waker happened, ganondorf was sealed away again, and then alttp happened in an entirely new Hyrule? I THINK NOT! If that's the case, Then how did the master sword come into play in AlttP? If there was already a Master Sword rusting at the bottom of the ocean, then how was it suddenly in a shrine in the woods? And how could it have been made in the imprisoning war, at the end of which was described years of peace (Peace, not flooding,) until the start of AlttP? If you can make a second Master Sword, you mearly strip it of it's power. There can only ever be one master sword, the same way there can be only one Hyrule. There is NO new Hyrule after Wind Waker. Excluding Phantom Hourglass, Wind Waker is the historical end of the series Zelda Series, and definitely the end of Hyrule.

Oh yeah, look at the sprites in Alttp, the Master sword was Blue, not Brown and Red. It as also Purple in OoT if you remember. The master sword's color is not set in stone, and has been subject to many changes over the years.

Oh yeah, there's only a swamp in the sacred realm (Or evil realm) in A Link to the Past, in the actual Hyrule, it's a Desert.

Sorry, that was my rant. It wasn't as good as some, but I had no time to proofread. I just get tired of the whole WW before almost-every-other-game theory. I needed to get it out of my system.

The master sword was made long BEFORE the seal war. It's purpose was so that that it could protect Hyrule in the case that something like the seal war ever happened.
Other than the rest of the OOT saga it is impossible for any game to be before TWW for several reasons including triforce location, and Ganon's whereabouts.

Here's a quote of mine from ages ago explaining when the Master Sword was made:

Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 (me!)

Here is a quote from the translation of the ALttP manual from Zelda Legends:

So the Master Sword was made by the Hylians after a message from the Gods. The Master Sword was made long before an evil one got their hands on the Triforce, because the MS was forged just in case that it should ever happen.

It was made long before OoT, like silver arrow said.

Originally Posted by JiminycricketX

Oh yeah, there's only a swamp in the sacred realm (Or evil realm) in A Link to the Past, in the actual Hyrule, it's a Desert.

Wrong. The area to the south between the desert and Lake Hylia is a swamp. The Dark World Misery Mire is a mire, not a "swamp."

EDIT: The years of peace were not said to have lasted from the end of the Seal War (the "first" Seal War) to the beginning of ALttP.

Originally Posted by LionHarted

This point is weak at best. Kokiri, Gerudo, and Sheikah all have pointed ears, and none of them are Hylian. Therefore, pointed ears do not necessarily denote that someone is Hylian. Pointed ears are a Hylian trait, but they seem to have been commonplace in Hyrule throughout the series, even after the Hylians are said to be extinct. If nothing else, people having pointed ears in TWW discourages it from coming after ALttP, which refers to the Hylian blood as being thinned.


So does OoT's castle. In fact, anything built AFTER OoT would have have a moat, since there's now a crater where the old castle used to be.


The use of the Hylian text in the text boxes is simply to denote that the character is speaking in a language unknown to the player (Link). The Hylian text used in the text boxes is not necessarily the "Ancient Tongue" spoken of by the Deku Tree.

Of course, the fact that the most recent Hero was the hero from OoT (Hero of Time) should be evidence enough that TWW is OoT's sequel, even if you ignore the developers confirming that that's where it goes.

On the contrary. There are no humans in WW, so how can ALttP take place after the flood? Secondly, the Hylian blood was being thinned in ALttP, so there are only a handful of Hylians left. There are only a handful of the people on the great sea. Only the Hylians, the people of the gods would have been told to go to the mountain tops, so only Hylians can be seen in WW.

Except WWs castle doesn't have a town in it. And yes, ALttP is after OoT, so any castle built after OoT having a moat just strengthens my point.

I don't have a WW text dump but I have played through it recently and the Deku Tree says the tongue he speaks is the ancient tongue. And NOWHERE does it say that the OoT hero is the most recent. He's just the most remembered.

Originally Posted by darthcucco

On the contrary. There are no humans in WW, so how can ALttP take place after the flood?

You cannot prove that there are Hylians, because pointy ears do not denote Hylian lineage. So the statement "there are no humans in TWW" is a hasty conclusion.

Secondly, the Hylian blood was being thinned in ALttP, so there are only a handful of Hylians left. There are only a handful of the people on the great sea.

There are at least 100 NPC's in TWW.

Only the Hylians, the people of the gods would have been told to go to the mountain tops, so only Hylians can be seen in WW.

I see Gorons, Zoras/Rito, Kokiri/Koroks as well. Bad conclusion, again.

Except WWs castle doesn't have a town in it. And yes, ALttP is after OoT, so any castle built after OoT having a moat just strengthens my point.

TWW's castle looks quite like TP's.

I don't have a WW text dump but I have played through it recently and the Deku Tree says the tongue he speaks is the ancient tongue. And NOWHERE does it say that the OoT hero is the most recent. He's just the most remembered.

The Hero of Time sealed away the evil. The evil escaped to turn Hyrule into a world of shadows. Hyrule was flooded to save the people from destruction.

That's the progression of events. There is no ALttP in that progression.

It's simple.

1) TWW follows events that occurred in OoT (as stated in TWW's intro). Since OoT featured Hylians and the Hylians were dead in ALTTP, we know that ALTTP cannot come before OoT.

2) TWW's intro also said that Ganon broke free from the seal that the Hero of Time placed on him. Since Ganon died in ALTTP, there is no position for him to reappear in TWW's intro. Hence, ALTTP cannot come before TWW.

The Triforce, being an inanimate object, cannot judge between good amd evil. Therefore, it could not know that Ganon's wishes were evil; it merely granted them. Suspecting that Ganon's power was based on the Triforce's magic, the people of Hyrule forged a sword resistant to magic which could repulse even powers granted by the Triforce. This mighty weapon became known as the blade of evil's bane, or the Master Sword. It was so powerful, that only one who was pure of heart could weild it. As the Seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword, Ganon's evil army swarmed from the tainted Golden Land into Hyrule and attacked the castle. The wise men and the Knights Of Hyrule combined forces to wage war on this evil horde.

The Knights took the full brunt of the fierce attack, and although they fought courageously, many a brave soul was lost that day. However, their lives were not lost in vain, for they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal Ganon in the Golden Land. All of Hyrule rejoiced at the victory that upheld peace and order over Ganon's evil and Chaos. This war, which claimed many lives, became known as the Imprisoning War, in stories told in later centuries.

Many centuries have passed since the Imprisoning War. The land of Hyrule healed it's wounds and the people lived in peace for a long time. Memories of the vicious Imprisoning War faded over the generations...


That was an excerpt from the SNES version of Alttp's Strategy guide. It clearly states that the Master Sword was made during the imprisoning war, for the specific purpose of defeating Ganon. It also describes centuries of peace following the imprisoning war, until the start of AlttP. You can't deny the facts. Unless there was more than one Master Sword, there is no way that WW was before AlttP.

And Ganondorf died at the end of Wind Waker also, if you remember. Death has never seemed to keep Ganon down, seeings as he's been killed in every game he's ever been in. Though that doesn't mean Alttp was before WW, it doesn't mean the opposite either. It's an invalid arguement. It's also possible that there was more than one Ganon, just like there was more than one link and Zelda.

Oh yeah, it also proves that the war is called the imprisoning war, no the sealing war. Deal with it.

If my word isn't good enough for you, you can read the scans here:
http://gallery.zeldalegends.net/disp...album=32&pos=3

Originally Posted by JiminycricketX

That was an excerpt from the SNES version of Alttp's Strategy guide. It clearly states that the Master Sword was made during the imprisoning war, for the specific purpose of defeating Ganon. It also describes centuries of peace following the imprisoning war, until the start of AlttP. You can't deny the facts. Unless there was more than one Master Sword, there is no way that WW was before AlttP.

Actually, no one considers that fact to be true because it was invented by the NOA translators, not the developers. The Japanese text says that the Master Sword was forged long before the Imprisoning War to protect the Triforce from evil, which it did in OoT.

Brush up on your facts: www.zeldalegends.net

The Seal War is the proper translation. The Master Sword was not forged during the Seal War, according to the proper translation.

Originally Posted by LionHarted

You cannot prove that there are Hylians, because pointy ears do not denote Hylian lineage. So the statement "there are no humans in TWW" is a hasty conclusion.

There are at least 100 NPC's in TWW.

I see Gorons, Zoras/Rito, Kokiri/Koroks as well. Bad conclusion, again.

TWW's castle looks quite like TP's.

The Hero of Time sealed away the evil. The evil escaped to turn Hyrule into a world of shadows. Hyrule was flooded to save the people from destruction.

That's the progression of events. There is no ALttP in that progression.

Except Humans have no pointy ears and no telepathic powers. The issue with pointy ears is that Gerudos, Sheikah and Hylians have them. Plain humans don't. Take a look in the mirror.

But not all of them are human shape.

Only a very small amount of Gorons survived. The Zora made a deal with Valoo to get wings, and the Kokiri turned into the Koroks to escape the flood.

Meaning ALttP could take place around the time of TP.

Isn't Ganon sealed away again at the end of ALttP? Regardless of this though, the events in ALttP aren't an invasion like OoT. Agahnim takes control of the country but I don't think everyone knows of this. Odd things are happening but nothing large scale. And if the common people do know what's going on, they probably don't realise that Ganon is behind it.

Those are only the events relevant to TWW.

Originally Posted by darthcucco

Except Humans have no pointy ears and no telepathic powers.

See: every character in TMC.

Isn't Ganon sealed away again at the end of ALttP?

Ganon is dead at the end of ALttP.

Originally Posted by LionHarted

See: every character in TMC.

Ganon is dead at the end of ALttP.

Except you can't prove that they don't have telepathic powers, so they could be Hylian.

It doesn't matter. A new ganon could be born before tWW. Where Ganon dies, so he cannot possibly appear in an ALttp set after the flood.