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Old 08-05-2006, 02:51 PM
Sentient Sentient is a male United Kingdom Sentient is offline
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Seal War Evidence

This is for all those that think OoT is the Seal War. Me and LionHarted have constantly argued against each other on this subject, but it seems neither of us can disprove the other and quotes from the game have become rather useless in this debate. Now, if you're like LionHarted you will believe that the Sages from OoT (who are muilti-racial: Hylian, Gerudo, Sheikah, Kokiri, Goron and Zora) are the Sages from the Seal War, and that they interbred with Hylians over time and that's why the Seal War Sages descendants in ALttP (the seven Maidens) are Hylian.

If you're sane, you'll know that such interbreeding is impossible, but I'll break the neck of the OoT is the Seal War arguement anyway. I think OoT is not the Seal War, and that the Seal War Sages were Hylian, which explains why their descendants are Hylian. Because I believe that OoT is not the Seal War, and if this is the case, it means all the Seal War Sages are Hylian (yes, even that little one who some claim to be a Kokiri). But I've found official artwork for ALttP on Zelda Legends that proves me right: OoT is not the Seal War! Let's look at the official artwork I found:



This is from the manual. Look at the Seal War Sages arms. They have Hylian coloured skin. No way is that skin tanned/green like the Gerudo, no way is that skin yellowy brown like the Gorons and so on. There is only one race in Hyrule that could have skin like that: the Hylians (and the Kokiri, but I'll get to that later). So far so good. Things are going in my favour. Let's look at some more official art:



Look at where the light hits their faces. The skin colour is the same, so they are Hylian. If you're saying "but it could be the Kokiri!", then shutup. The Kokiri are bound to be children forever, and when have you seen a child with a beard like that? Hmm? Nowhere. Things are really looking good for the OoT is not the Seal War arguement now. Shall we continue:



This is the last piece of official artwork of the seven Seal War Sages I could find, but this is concrete evidence that the Seal War Sages are all Hylian, so it's impossible for OoT to be the Seal War. Weeks I have tried to convince those that think OoT is the Seal War that they are wrong, and now I have found solid evidence that they are wrong and I am right!

LionHarted, I really hope that you post here, because I don't care what you say, there is nothing you can do or say or misinterpret that can make you sound right. You wanted concrete proof that OoT is not the Seal War, and here it is.
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Old 08-05-2006, 03:03 PM
Freedom G Freedom G is a male United States Freedom G is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

good job, and yeah, I've always believed that it wasn't the seal war as well. one reason I believed it is because the seal war is when the Master Sword was created, and in Oot it is obvious that it wasn't just created, or else when Navi first see's it she wouldn't say, "could it be?..the sword of 'legend'." legend as in its old and has been around for a while, something thats been around for a week can't be legendary now can it.
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Old 08-05-2006, 03:11 PM
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Freedom, I think your tking the evidence from the NoA translations (which isn't canonical any longer). The original Japanese is the only "official" write-up, but there are tweo great translations on this page.

ZG, are you suggesting the sages are all Hylian then? Well in that case the Seal War would have to be pre-TMC for sure, and probably pre-tWW as well. And that's certainly not where you have it in your timeline...
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Old 08-05-2006, 03:38 PM
Zora Fisherman Zora Fisherman is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

pardon my ignorance but what is the seal war? is that what the ALttP opening is refering to?
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Old 08-05-2006, 03:41 PM
Master of ALttP United_States Master of ALttP is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

I'm sorry, but there's no way in hell that LionHarted is going to accept this as proof. Hell, I don't even accept it as proof.
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Old 08-05-2006, 04:06 PM
LinkZeldaGanon United_States LinkZeldaGanon is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Artwork cannot be used as evidence because it was made by one guy who drew it to the proper feel of the game. It can also be argued that at the time of ALttP, history has been so distorted that everyone thought that the seven sages were all old Hylian men. It's foolish to think that Nintendo intended to make OoT the Seal War, but they got it wrong. Who are you to say they got their own story wrong?!? I don't feel like getting into the particulars as I feel this doesn't warrant any more of my time, but when LionHarted comes...man, just start running now!
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Old 08-05-2006, 04:13 PM
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Re: Seal War Evidence

To fill in Zora Fisherman and others, the Seal war (or Imprisoning War) is both the backstory of AlttP (told both in the manual and in dialouge throughout the game) and the concept around which OOT's story was designed.

For years after OOT's release, very few people doubted that both Seal Wars (that described in AlttP and that shown in OOT) were one and the same. There were some differences in the story, but even Nintendo laughed it off and pointed out that legends change over time.

After tWW's release, however, things got a little more complicated. tWW had to come in between OOT and AlttP, and so "OOT=SW" became a much more complciated theory. Most eventually decided that the two were seperate events. Nintendo hasn't said anything on the matter in 4 years, and these threads show up once every month or so...
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Old 08-05-2006, 04:17 PM
Sentient Sentient is a male United Kingdom Sentient is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom G
good job, and yeah, I've always believed that it wasn't the seal war as well. one reason I believed it is because the seal war is when the Master Sword was created, and in Oot it is obvious that it wasn't just created, or else when Navi first see's it she wouldn't say, "could it be?..the sword of 'legend'." legend as in its old and has been around for a while, something thats been around for a week can't be legendary now can it.
Actually the Master Sword was created long ago after a message from the Gods that told the Hylians to forge the Master Sword in case evil got a hold of the Triforce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE
ZG, are you suggesting the sages are all Hylian then? Well in that case the Seal War would have to be pre-TMC for sure, and probably pre-tWW as well. And that's certainly not where you have it in your timeline...
Well, considering trademark abilities of Hylians are high spiritual powers such as telepathy and the abilty to hear the Gods, I'd say that the Seal War Sages are Hylian as they have large psychic powers like Hylians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
I'm sorry, but there's no way in hell that LionHarted is going to accept this as proof. Hell, I don't even accept it as proof.
Why? It's as good as evidence as in game stuff. You yourself look at official artwork in your theories *coughs* Hylian Sheilds*coughs* so why isn't it acceptable for me to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon
Artwork cannot be used as evidence because it was made by one guy who drew it to the proper feel of the game. It can also be argued that at the time of ALttP, history has been so distorted that everyone thought that the seven sages were all old Hylian men. It's foolish to think that Nintendo intended to make OoT the Seal War, but they got it wrong. Who are you to say they got their own story wrong?!? I don't feel like getting into the particulars as I feel this doesn't warrant any more of my time, but when LionHarted comes...man, just start running now!
I'm sorry, but it seems that the guy who posted above you uses official artwork in his theories and you don't give him any grief. There's a reason it's called OFFICIAL artwork: because it was made by Nintendo and it has to go past Miyamoto to be approved so it has as much relevance as any other piece of info in the games. History could have been distorted so that people think all the Sages are Hylian? Think back to TWW those stained glass windows in the Master Sword's room. They had the OoT Sages on them and they were still the same races. And TWW is hundreds of years after OoT, much like ALttP is hundreds of years after the Seal War. To say that history was distorted is a lame excuse.

When LionHarted comes, I should start running? What for? I know I'm right and I've got OFFICIAL evidence to back me up.
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Old 08-05-2006, 04:41 PM
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Re: Seal War Evidence

How can AlttP have "official evidence" pertaining to OOT? The latter didn't exist until four years later.

Since OOT came out, Nintendo has done its bst to refrain from mentiong the SW. Luckily, we have this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by "Satoru Takizawa, OOT Character Design
This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."
Its not an amazing revelation, but its the final word on the subject.
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Old 08-05-2006, 07:13 PM
LinkZeldaGanon United_States LinkZeldaGanon is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
I'm sorry, but it seems that the guy who posted above you uses official artwork in his theories and you don't give him any grief.
I don't give MoALttP any grief because usually I don't ready a lot of these timeline theory threads, and because I know that he would rip my ideas to shreds. I also assume he's got more than just a few fallible pictures to back up an entire major argument such as this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
There's a reason it's called OFFICIAL artwork: because it was made by Nintendo and it has to go past Miyamoto to be approved so it has as much relevance as any other piece of info in the games.
Hmm, that's funny. I seem to remember one of the major arguments against my theory of ALttP coming after LoZ/AoL was that Miyamoto couldn't be trusted as a reliable source for facts on the story/timeline. As much as I'd like to believe that Miyamoto is a trustworthy source, the evidence is stacked against him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
History could have been distorted so that people think all the Sages are Hylian? Think back to TWW those stained glass windows in the Master Sword's room. They had the OoT Sages on them and they were still the same races. And TWW is hundreds of years after OoT, much like ALttP is hundreds of years after the Seal War. To say that history was distorted is a lame excuse.
Yes, but when were those windows made? The castle and everything in it had to have been made hundreds or thousands of years before TWW. After TWW, the accuracy of history may have had a boom, but by the time of ALttP, tens of thousands or even millenia had passed since OoT, plenty of time for facts to become distorted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
When LionHarted comes, I should start running? What for?
I was giving you a friendly warning. We all know Lionharted, and he is going to get medieval on you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
I know I'm right and I've got OFFICIAL evidence to back me up.
What you have is official from Nintendo, but in terms of Hylian history, it's all distorted.
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Old 08-06-2006, 04:25 AM
Sentient Sentient is a male United Kingdom Sentient is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmmm_PIE
How can AlttP have "official evidence" pertaining to OOT? The latter didn't exist until four years later.

Since OOT came out, Nintendo has done its bst to refrain from mentiong the SW. Luckily, we have this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by "Satoru Takizawa, OOT Character Design
This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda. To give that game a little "secret" recognition, I thought that keeping the "pigness" in Ganon would be the correct course. So we made him a beast "with the feeling of a pig."


Its not an amazing revelation, but its the final word on the subject.
To me, that blatantly says that they were basing OoT on the Seal War, but it wasn't actually meant to be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon
I don't give MoALttP any grief because usually I don't ready a lot of these timeline theory threads, and because I know that he would rip my ideas to shreds. I also assume he's got more than just a few fallible pictures to back up an entire major argument such as this.
Hmmm, I seem to recall that these were the only pictures I could find, and they very clearly show that the Seal War Sages are Hylian. If you think my evidence is weak, fine, but you must have really forgotten what Hylians look like in order to deny this evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon
Yes, but when were those windows made? The castle and everything in it had to have been made hundreds or thousands of years before TWW. After TWW, the accuracy of history may have had a boom, but by the time of ALttP, tens of thousands or even millenia had passed since OoT, plenty of time for facts to become distorted.
Facts may have been distorted but not to the extent you're suggesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon
I was giving you a friendly warning. We all know Lionharted, and he is going to get medieval on you!
LionHarted can't do anything to me because even he can't argue against this, unless it's with the same lame excuse that you and the rest of the people that have posted (except Freedom G) have been using: "Oh, but history has been distorted".
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon
What you have is official from Nintendo, but in terms of Hylian history, it's all distorted.
[MAJOR SARCASM]Oh yes, how silly of me! Nintendo doesn't have a clue what they're talking about about! Oh dear, what a prat I've been! [/MAJOR SARCASM]

I really didn't expect such negative feedback. I can't believe that people here would argue against concrete evidence. I can't believe what lengths some people will go to just to say that they're right. Face it, OoT is not the Seal War. Now get over yourselves.
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Old 08-06-2006, 06:41 AM
LinkZeldaGanon United_States LinkZeldaGanon is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
Hmmm, I seem to recall that these were the only pictures I could find, and they very clearly show that the Seal War Sages are Hylian. If you think my evidence is weak, fine, but you must have really forgotten what Hylians look like in order to deny this evidence.
Don't just ignore what I say, but then imply that I'm stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
Facts may have been distorted but not to the extent you're suggesting.
Why not? As I said, there had to have been tend of thousands of years to millenia between OoT and ALttP. That would be plenty of time for history to have been warped.

How do I know that it's been so long between in the two chapters? I don't, but I'm using plain logic here. It have to have been hundreds or thousands of years between the beginning of the Great Flood and TWW. Why? Because it takes that much time for the majority of people to forget almost all of their heritage. The only people in TWW that seemed to know anything about Hyrule were the people of Outset, and even that was very limited. You think that they would have at least have remembered the Great Flood. Either it's been hundreds, thousands, ore even more years between the Great Flood and TWW, or it was something supernatural.

It's the same between TWW and ALttP. It's logical to assume that there was a great amount of time between TWW and ALttP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
LionHarted can't do anything to me because even he can't argue against this, unless it's with the same lame excuse that you and the rest of the people that have posted (except Freedom G) have been using: "Oh, but history has been distorted".
First, I'm betting he'll have more than just the distorted history argument, and he'll probably present it better too. Second, why couldn't have history been distorted? It's not lame, it's works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
[MAJOR SARCASM]Oh yes, how silly of me! Nintendo doesn't have a clue what they're talking about about! Oh dear, what a prat I've been! [/MAJOR SARCASM]
Don't be stupid! That's not what I meant. Nintendo was presenting history as it it presented at that time in Hyrule. They would have realized this, if not then, then by now, that history could easily have been distorted. Of course Nintendo knows what they are doing! It's their story! I believe that more than anyone else here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
I can't believe what lengths some people will go to just to say that they're right.
...
Now get over yourselves.
Wow! Are you sure that we didn't switch places or something? I could say the exact same thing to you.
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Old 08-06-2006, 07:59 AM
Master of ALttP United_States Master of ALttP is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

It's artwork. You're using artwork for all your "proof." I only use it as supporting evidence when I have to. You're using it as full-on proof. There's a reason that people are saying that this is shaky. You know, there's actually two Seal Wars from what LionHarted and I have come across. One which is OoT, and one which is around the time of FSA. Both serve the purpose of sealing Ganon away. Over time, historical accounts became skewed and people began thinking of the two as the same event. The reason that I like having two Seal Wars is because we can have the Seven Wise Men in the one after FSA.
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:57 AM
Sentient Sentient is a male United Kingdom Sentient is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
It's artwork. You're using artwork for all your "proof." I only use it as supporting evidence when I have to. You're using it as full-on proof. There's a reason that people are saying that this is shaky. You know, there's actually two Seal Wars from what LionHarted and I have come across. One which is OoT, and one which is around the time of FSA. Both serve the purpose of sealing Ganon away. Over time, historical accounts became skewed and people began thinking of the two as the same event. The reason that I like having two Seal Wars is because we can have the Seven Wise Men in the one after FSA.
So your saying that the Seal War spoke of in ALttP is after FSA? Good, because that's what I'm saying. Yes, Ganon was sealed away in OoT, but that does not make it a Seal War. It wasn't a war at all, just a battle. The Seal War spoke of in ALttP was a war, so it is the only Seal War.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon
Don't just ignore what I say, but then imply that I'm stupid.
I didn't ignore what you said, and I didn't imply you were stupid. All I said was that you've obviously forgotten what Hylians look like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon
Why not? As I said, there had to have been tend of thousands of years to millenia between OoT and ALttP. That would be plenty of time for history to have been warped.

How do I know that it's been so long between in the two chapters? I don't, but I'm using plain logic here. It have to have been hundreds or thousands of years between the beginning of the Great Flood and TWW. Why? Because it takes that much time for the majority of people to forget almost all of their heritage. The only people in TWW that seemed to know anything about Hyrule were the people of Outset, and even that was very limited. You think that they would have at least have remembered the Great Flood. Either it's been hundreds, thousands, ore even more years between the Great Flood and TWW, or it was something supernatural.

It's the same between TWW and ALttP. It's logical to assume that there was a great amount of time between TWW and ALttP.
No way is it tens of thousands of years. Some thousand yes, but nothing more than ten thousand. It could have been a millenia? Are you off your rocker? I'm more than a little bit sure that if it had been a millenia between the two, their culture would have advanced drastically more than it has. For instance, they would have invented new things, swords would probably be replaced by guns. If in a millenia the Hylians /humans don't invent something new, then they have got some real development issues. Yes, the Great Flood was something supernatural. It says in TWW that the Gods pured endless amounts of rain onto Hyrule so that Ganondorf would be defeated and the people saved, since no hero appeared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon
Don't be stupid! That's not what I meant. Nintendo was presenting history as it it presented at that time in Hyrule. They would have realized this, if not then, then by now, that history could easily have been distorted. Of course Nintendo knows what they are doing! It's their story! I believe that more than anyone else here!
I wasn't saying that Nintendo didn't know what they were doing (Hence the MAJOR SARCASM tags) it was you who was implying that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkZeldaGanon
Wow! Are you sure that we didn't switch places or something? I could say the exact same thing to you.
You could say that I go to lengths just to say I'm right. Hmm. I have concrete evidence backing my opinion up, all you've got is the stupid "but history has been distorted" thing. It is just as likely that history wasn't distorted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
It's artwork. You're using artwork for all your "proof." I only use it as supporting evidence when I have to. You're using it as full-on proof.
I'm not using it as full proof. You yourself should know that I've brought up loads of in game quotes over the course of the many arguements with LionHarted that support my opinion. I just couldn't be bothered to post them all again. I'd have thought you would know that I've got lots of textual evidence aswell, but like I said at the top, quotes have become rather useless in the arguement.

But if it's textual evidence you want, then here you go: In the Seal War, it says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALttP Manual Translation
The Sages first had to search for the existance of the Master Sword and a hero to use it.
Hmm. In OoT, Rauru clearly knows where the Master Sword is and he's found the Hero of Time and Rauru's a Sage. So why would the Sages need to search for the Master Sword and a hero to use it if they have already found it? Hmm. The answer: they wouldn't need to. Use the "history has been distorted" rubbish and you will have just proved you have nothing to counter what I'm saying and all you have is a stupid little thing that I can also use. I could easily say: "history was so distorted that when the story was told in ALttP all the events were exactly the same as when they happened". It works according to your logic.

Really, just look at it from my view. I've got evidence that hugely supports my opinion and all you lot have got is "history has been distorted". I think you can see why I think your arguement is weak: because it is weak and has nothing backing it up.
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Old 08-06-2006, 09:29 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
When LionHarted comes, I should start running? What for? I know I'm right and I've got OFFICIAL evidence to back me up.
"Officially", any artwork depicting the "Wise Men" is obsolete. Any artwork that depicts them as Hylian is also obsolete, since, since the release of ALttP, the "Hylian blood" has already been shown to have "thinned" long before ALttP ever takes place, in TWW, so those artworks do not match up with the most recent canon. At the time, it was believed that the Hylian people existed not long before ALttP took place, and that their dying out was a recent phenomenon, so the artwork would have reflected this. As much as I hate to say it (since I like the ALttP SNES art), the ALttP SNES official art is null and void.

Quote:
If you're sane, you'll know that such interbreeding is impossible, but I'll break the neck of the OoT is the Seal War arguement anyway.
Hylians can breed with Gerudo, as we see. Hylians can also breed with Sheikah, and probably Kokiri. Zora are humanoid fish--the way they birth their offspring is different (laying eggs vs. live birth), but the process by which their offspring are "made" is probably the same. The same goes for Gorons. That being said, since Greek mythology has humans breeding with bulls and swans, I don't see why this concept is so farfetched.

Quote:
In OoT, Rauru clearly knows where the Master Sword is and he's found the Hero of Time and Rauru's a Sage. So why would the Sages need to search for the Master Sword and a hero to use it if they have already found it? Hmm. The answer: they wouldn't need to.
Rauru is "a Sage", not "the Sages." "The Sages", being Darunia, Saria, and Ruto (Zelda and Impa probably knew where Link was, as well), who all were looking for Link, and, indirectly, the Master Sword (the Hero of Time). Whether or not they knew who exactly they were looking for (the Hero of Time) is irrelevant. The person for whom they were waiting turned out to be the person they were said to have looked for in the legends, and so the legends match up. Zelda/Sheik and Impa were also looking/waiting for him as well--waiting for him to come back to Hyrule.

Also, the "bloodline" of Sages/Maidens/Wise Men/whatever that "guard Hyrule" lies within "humans" (or Hylians, if you want to maintain that point--even though there are no Hylians in the post-TMC era--which also means that there were no Hylian Wise Men) by FSA/ALttP. According to your timeline, we have Sages in OoT/TWW, then Maidens in FSA, then full-powered Sages AGAIN in pre-ALttP, and Maidens AGAIN in ALttP. Now that just seems silly. Where did the first set of Maidens come from? Out of thin air? And why did they go back to being Sages for, say, a generation, and then back to being Maidens again? It makes much more sense to say that the "Sages" in OoT progressed over the thousand-some-odd years between OoT and FSA into the "human" Maidens, and that the Maidens strived to "work together" against evil, as we see in ALttP.
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Old 08-06-2006, 11:45 AM
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Re: Seal War Evidence

I know that the Hylian blood has runned thin, I was never denying that, but that does not mean Hylians are extinct. Trademark abilities of Hylians are some of the powers that both the Miadens and the Sages display, so it's most likely they are some of the last Hylians in existance, hence why the Hylian blood is thinning: because there are so few of them left.
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Originally Posted by LionHarted
According to your timeline, we have Sages in OoT/TWW, then Maidens in FSA, then full-powered Sages AGAIN in pre-ALttP, and Maidens AGAIN in ALttP. Now that just seems silly.
Does gender have anything to do with their abilities? No. The Maidens in FSA and ALttP display the same abilities as the Wise Men from the Seal War, so I was never saying anything like you were saying I was.
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Originally Posted by LionHarted
"Officially", any artwork depicting the "Wise Men" is obsolete. Any artwork that depicts them as Hylian is also obsolete, since, since the release of ALttP, the "Hylian blood" has already been shown to have "thinned" long before ALttP ever takes place, in TWW, so those artworks do not match up with the most recent canon. At the time, it was believed that the Hylian people existed not long before ALttP took place, and that their dying out was a recent phenomenon, so the artwork would have reflected this. As much as I hate to say it (since I like the ALttP SNES art), the ALttP SNES official art is null and void.
So everything from ALttP is null and void since it wasn't thought about much at the time of the game's release? Bye bye your evidence for OoT being the Seal War then. Everything that was made by Nintendo to do with the Zelda games is canon. New or old, it doesn't matter. If the official artwork depicts the Seal War Sages being of one race, then they are of one race. Get over it. You've lost. If everyone went about saying that some things are canon and others aren't, then loads of crazy things could happen, because people can form what ideas they want if they go around labelling what things are and aren't canon. You can't do this, as all canon is canon and has as much relevance today as it did when it was made. If you want to deny official evidence, then do it, but I won't lose any sleep over it. I've proven my point, I know that the evidence I've provided proves you wrong, and I know that OoT is not the Seal War.

Argue against me if you want, but to me you'll just be flogging a dead horse: you'll have no points to make that can PROVE you right.
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Last Edited by ZeldaGamer21; 08-06-2006 at 12:05 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-06-2006, 12:21 PM
Master of ALttP United_States Master of ALttP is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
So your saying that the Seal War spoke of in ALttP is after FSA? Good, because that's what I'm saying. Yes, Ganon was sealed away in OoT, but that does not make it a Seal War. It wasn't a war at all, just a battle. The Seal War spoke of in ALttP was a war, so it is the only Seal War.
What LionHarted and I have come to agree on is that the war spoken of by Sahasrahla is the second Seal War.

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I didn't ignore what you said, and I didn't imply you were stupid. All I said was that you've obviously forgotten what Hylians look like.
And you've obviously forgotten that the artwork you're referring to is more than a decade old. It's been outdated.

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No way is it tens of thousands of years.
I agree with you on this.

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Some thousand yes, but nothing more than ten thousand.
Again, I agree with you.

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It could have been a millenia? Are you off your rocker?
I think you're off your rocker. A millenium is a thousand years. Millenia is the plural of millenium, which would mean more than one millenium.

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I'm more than a little bit sure that if it had been a millenia between the two, their culture would have advanced drastically more than it has. For instance, they would have invented new things, swords would probably be replaced by guns. If in a millenia the Hylians /humans don't invent something new, then they have got some real development issues. Yes, the Great Flood was something supernatural. It says in TWW that the Gods pured endless amounts of rain onto Hyrule so that Ganondorf would be defeated and the people saved, since no hero appeared.
The thing is, not many new things are invented. At least, not from what we see.

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You could say that I go to lengths just to say I'm right. Hmm. I have concrete evidence backing my opinion up, all you've got is the stupid "but history has been distorted" thing. It is just as likely that history wasn't distorted.
You have outdated source material, which is additionally official artwork. And it's actually more likely for history to be distorted because of the long period of time. Hylian is a difficult language, so some people in Hyrule may not be able to read that well. Therefore, word of mouth is the most likely method that history is learned. This leads to alterations based on the teller.

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I'm not using it as full proof. You yourself should know that I've brought up loads of in game quotes over the course of the many arguements with LionHarted that support my opinion. I just couldn't be bothered to post them all again. I'd have thought you would know that I've got lots of textual evidence aswell, but like I said at the top, quotes have become rather useless in the arguement.
You're acting like it is full proof, though. You've only brought up minor discrepancies which point to the existence of two Seal Wars.

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But if it's textual evidence you want, then here you go: In the Seal War, it says:
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ALttP Manual Translation
The Sages first had to search for the existance of the Master Sword and a hero to use it.
Hmm. In OoT, Rauru clearly knows where the Master Sword is and he's found the Hero of Time and Rauru's a Sage. So why would the Sages need to search for the Master Sword and a hero to use it if they have already found it? Hmm. The answer: they wouldn't need to. Use the "history has been distorted" rubbish and you will have just proved you have nothing to counter what I'm saying and all you have is a stupid little thing that I can also use. I could easily say: "history was so distorted that when the story was told in ALttP all the events were exactly the same as when they happened". It works according to your logic.
There's a Sheikah legend that pertains to this, I think. Also, weren't Zelda and Impa waiting for Link? They were looking for him, so they were looking for the Hero.

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Really, just look at it from my view. I've got evidence that hugely supports my opinion and all you lot have got is "history has been distorted". I think you can see why I think your arguement is weak: because it is weak and has nothing backing it up.
We've got about a dozen parallels between the two events. Compared to us, you're the one with nothing.
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  #18 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-06-2006, 01:01 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeldaGamer21 View Post
Does gender have anything to do with their abilities? No. The Maidens in FSA and ALttP display the same abilities as the Wise Men from the Seal War, so I was never saying anything like you were saying I was.
Neither does title. I wager that the Maidens in FSA are the "Sages" spoken of in ALttP, and that the "Great War" represents the events of FSA.
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So everything from ALttP is null and void since it wasn't thought about much at the time of the game's release? Bye bye your evidence for OoT being the Seal War then.
There hasn't been a revised version of OoT that overrides the original version, and that leaves out text and official art.
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Everything that was made by Nintendo to do with the Zelda games is canon. New or old, it doesn't matter.
Master Quest is not canon.
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If the official artwork depicts the Seal War Sages being of one race, then they are of one race.
The official artwork that depicts the Seal War Wise Men being of one race does not exist in the updated version of ALttP for GBA. Canon that is removed is no longer canon.
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You can't do this, as all canon is canon and has as much relevance today as it did when it was made.
The term "Wise Men" has no relevance, unless you'd like to use it to distinguish between Sages.
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Argue against me if you want, but to me you'll just be flogging a dead horse: you'll have no points to make that can PROVE you right.
I have never said that I have any that prove me right.

I can prove, however, that there was a war in OoT, and that it did result in Ganon being sealed after trying to claim the Triforce, and that there is nothing in the manual story to directly contradict it being the same as the manual story, and I can prove that there was an armed struggle in FSA that resulted in the extermination of the Knights of Hyrule, and also the sealing of Ganon (although, in that case, he did not yet try to take the Triforce), and that nothing in the in-game "Great War" myth contradicts it being the same as the "Great War".
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Old 08-06-2006, 06:50 PM
Sentient Sentient is a male United Kingdom Sentient is offline
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
And you've obviously forgotten that the artwork you're referring to is more than a decade old. It's been outdated.
The Mona Lisa is over a century old. Oh dear, it's outdated, so Mona Lisa probably didn't look anything like she did in that painting.
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Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
I think you're off your rocker. A millenium is a thousand years. Millenia is the plural of millenium, which would mean more than one millenium.
Woops. My mistake. I guess I was only reading the mill part and I thought of millions. Sorry.
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Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
The thing is, not many new things are invented. At least, not from what we see.
So you're saying that Hylians do have some major development problems? Ok. But I think they don't as they are clearly intelligent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
You have outdated source material, which is additionally official artwork. And it's actually more likely for history to be distorted because of the long period of time. Hylian is a difficult language, so some people in Hyrule may not be able to read that well. Therefore, word of mouth is the most likely method that history is learned. This leads to alterations based on the teller.
Exactly. It's OFFICIAL artwork. So therefore, it's OFFICIAL evidence that OoT is OFFICIALLY not the Seal War. Hylian's not that difficult. Anyways, there'll always be a original version of the Seal War story written down with all the facts right, and there'll always be someone that can read Hylian, so the facts won't become distorted because word of mouth will spread what really happened.
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Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
You're acting like it is full proof, though. You've only brought up minor discrepancies which point to the existence of two Seal Wars.
I have never said anything that points towards there being two Seal Wars. That is why it is called THE Seal War. Because there is only one.
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Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
There's a Sheikah legend that pertains to this, I think. Also, weren't Zelda and Impa waiting for Link? They were looking for him, so they were looking for the Hero.
Yes, but the Sages in the Seal War didn't find a Hero. Whereas the OoT Sages (in a way) did find a Hero. Don't say that this could have been forgotten over time because I highly doubt that word of mouth would lead to the Hero being missed out from the stories.
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Originally Posted by Master of ALttP
We've got about a dozen parallels between the two events. Compared to us, you're the one with nothing.
You've got the main things matching up. I've got the details that don't match up. All the little things add to one BIG thing, and I mean BIG. It's the little things that make up life and it's the little things that prove me right.
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Originally Posted by LionHarted
The official artwork that depicts the Seal War Wise Men being of one race does not exist in the updated version of ALttP for GBA. Canon that is removed is no longer canon.
That might be because it wasn't in the SNES version either! The official artwork isn't in the games, so how can it be left out?
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Originally Posted by LionHarted
The term "Wise Men" has no relevance, unless you'd like to use it to distinguish between Sages.
Notice that five of the seven OoT Sages are women? I think they'd be called Wise Women if OoT was the Seal War.
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Originally Posted by LionHarted
I can prove, however, that there was a war in OoT, and that it did result in Ganon being sealed after trying to claim the Triforce, and that there is nothing in the manual story to directly contradict it being the same as the manual story, and I can prove that there was an armed struggle in FSA that resulted in the extermination of the Knights of Hyrule, and also the sealing of Ganon (although, in that case, he did not yet try to take the Triforce), and that nothing in the in-game "Great War" myth contradicts it being the same as the "Great War".
Yes, Ganon did get sealed in OoT, but it was after a battle, not a war.
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  #20 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-06-2006, 07:03 PM
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Re: Seal War Evidence

Quote:
Notice that five of the seven OoT Sages are women? I think they'd be called Wise Women if OoT was the Seal War.
That was a mistranslation, the japanese kanji for that word can be translated as more words than ''Sages'' unfortunately, the SNES translator decided to go with ''Wise men'' wich implyes that they're all male, but it was a mistranslation.

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Yes, Ganon did get sealed in OoT, but it was after a battle, not a war.
So, Ganon taking over Hyrule with a army of monsters wiping out royal guards and knights doesn't qualifies as a war? Besides, a war can be composed of lots of battles.
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