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  #61 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-31-2012, 05:21 PM
Her Grace Her Grace is a male United Kingdom Her Grace is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvagia_slayer View Post
because there are better places for FS/FSA than where HH has it, that's why this discussion exists.
How so are there? I do point out in my previous post in this thread exactly why there Four Swords Adventures could only ever follow Twilight Princess without a hoard of contradictions. Four Swords itself could indeed go anywhere except for the Adult Timeline. It could have to easily gone between Twilight Princess and Four Swords Adventures, but the better reason for it to go before Ocarina of Time is because they had always intended it to be an unconnected prequel. It also nicely fills in the gap between The Minish Cap and Ocarina of Time.

As we see, The Minish Cap features Hyrule differently than most of the other games. For that reason, many assumed that it was set in the new Hyrule after The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass. The problem was that after The Minish Cap, Hyrule began to transform into its Ocarina of Time state. As seen in Skyward Sword, Hyrule isn't even founded yet, but it becomes the the small kingdom we see in The Minish Cap and then transforms further into 'modern' Hyrule by the time of Four Swords and retains that look for Ocarina of Time (a Death Mountain inhabited by Gorons, ect.).

Another good reason for Four Swords to fall between the The Minish Cap and Ocarina of Time goes as follows: Hyrule is founded, establishing a castle and town, followed by the eventual founding of Death Mountain and the Goron race dominating it; some time later, Hyrule's first village, Kakariko, is founded between Four Swords and Ocarina of Time, and continues to exist through Twilight Princess and Four Swords Adventures, which features the founding of a second village, Blue Maiden, some time between Twilight Princess and Four Swords Adventures. Just like the Hyrule seen in Skyward Sword and The Minish Cap, the incarnation seen in Four Swords seems like an 'early' version, but not quite as early. Stilll earlier than the bigger Hyrule seen in Ocarina of Time. Perhaps it is just because it is a small game, but the kingdom in Four Swords feels feels pre-modern and small. The backstory of Ocarina of Time is how the kingdom became bigger through unification and became the 'modern' version seen in games such as Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, Four Swords Adventures, A Link to the Past and Zelda II's backstory.
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  #62 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-31-2012, 05:30 PM
Volvagia_slayer Volvagia_slayer is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

^The answer to the "how so" is because it makes more sense for the ordering to go FS -> FSA with nothing in-between because of all the reasons already discussed in this thread, not the least of which is the fact that FSA specifically says that the people of Hyrule thought the land was at peace from the end of FS until the beginning of FSA. So whether that means FS has to be moved, FSA has to be moved, or they both have to be moved, the resulting FS -> FSA ordering would give us fewer contradictions than we have now.

Not sure if the Kakariko Village bit of info is the best evidence since TP confirms that there's more than one Kakariko Village in the Zelda universe (which means that FSA's Kakariko may not even be the same one that we see in the other games), and I'm not sure why you think we can glean the status of the kingdom during FS, considering that FS takes place in a secluded area far out of the way of the main kingdom. We don't know the state of the kingdom during FS, because the majority of the civilization is likely set up on the other side of Death Mountain rather than in the secluded area of Hyrule that FS takes place in.
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  #63 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-31-2012, 10:18 PM
Her Grace Her Grace is a male United Kingdom Her Grace is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvagia_slayer View Post
^The answer to the "how so" is because it makes more sense for the ordering to go FS -> FSA with nothing in-between because of all the reasons already discussed in this thread, not the least of which is the fact that FSA specifically says that the people of Hyrule thought the land was at peace from the end of FS until the beginning of FSA. So whether that means FS has to be moved, FSA has to be moved, or they both have to be moved, the resulting FS -> FSA ordering would give us fewer contradictions than we have now.
It is merely one contradiction, however, if even worthy to be called that at all. The people of Hyrule always think the bad times are over and turn out to be wrong every time. What we have learnt in recent times is that bad stuff happens in Hyrule between every game because the kingdom has been cursed ever since Demise's defeat. As far as the Child Timeline goes also, there is a lot of peace between Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures, seeing as Ganondorf is executed before he can take over Hyrule and the general populace were completely ignorant of the Twili invasion. Nothing earth-shattering is known to have happened between the two games, so that in itself helps ease the situation.

Quote:
Not sure if the Kakariko Village bit of info is the best evidence since TP confirms that there's more than one Kakariko Village in the Zelda universe (which means that FSA's Kakariko may not even be the same one that we see in the other games), and I'm not sure why you think we can glean the status of the kingdom during FS, considering that FS takes place in a secluded area far out of the way of the main kingdom. We don't know the state of the kingdom during FS, because the majority of the civilization is likely set up on the other side of Death Mountain rather than in the secluded area of Hyrule that FS takes place in.
It isn't meant to be evidence but a minor consistency because then we don't have the village disappearing and reappearing; instead, it is not built until between Four Swords and Ocarina of Time. I know there is more than one Kakariko, but one of them is old and supposed to be hidden. The public one disappearing has wouldn't seem right. I choose to think Old Kakariko pre-dates Hyrule's establishment as a kingdom and that the new one near Death Mountain was founded after Four Swords.

We do see enough of Hyrule in Four Swords to know that it doesn't seem like its flourishing quite yet. The entire kingdom exists south of the Death Mountain range. Even though we don't see as much of it as usual, it still doesn't feel like modern Hyrule but more like the state it would exist in prior to its expansion and spreading outwards in and following Ocarina of Time.
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  #64 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 12:31 AM
Volvagia_slayer Volvagia_slayer is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Her Grace View Post
The people of Hyrule always think the bad times are over and turn out to be wrong every time.
True, but they don't tend to forget the last notable plague or ailment that befell their land. For example, in TWW, they still remembered the events of OoT (and only OoT). In LA, they still remembered the events of ALttP (and only ALttP). In AoL, they still remembered the events of LoZ (and only LoZ, well, plus Impa's knowledge of the King of Hyrule/sleeping Zelda stuff).

We don't have any other games where the people of Hyrule remember something bad that happened in the past, but don't seem to remember something bad that happened more immediately in their past, as would be the case with FS -> OoT -> TP -> FSA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Her Grace View Post
As far as the Child Timeline goes also, there is a lot of peace between Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures, seeing as Ganondorf is executed before he can take over Hyrule and the general populace were completely ignorant of the Twili invasion.
But as already mentioned, Ganondorf still invaded Hyrule in the child timeline and was known all over the land as a demon thief and evil magic-user. The evil things he would have had to have done to gain that kind of popularity before being caught have to be pretty numerous or of great scale. And if the people of FSA can remember the Dark Tribe invading Hyrule some time before the events of FS, surely they could remember Ganondorf invading as well, especially since that would have taken place much closer to the present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Her Grace View Post
The entire kingdom exists south of the Death Mountain range.
Well, we really don't know which direction is absolute north in those games, but, yes, the kingdom of Hyrule during FSA exists relative south of Death Mountain, but I'm of the mind that it exists relative north of Death Mountain during the events of FS. I don't think we're seeing the same area of land in both games, particularly since FS's geography looks like the backside of Hyrule that Death Mountain is mostly obscuring on FSA's map, and the fact that Zelda tells Link that the shrine of the Four Sword is so far away and secluded from Hyrule Castle that she has to teleport them there (and then we never see the shrine in any of the area of Hyrule that is relative south of Death Mountain in FSA, which would fit the shrine being relative north of Death Mountain during FSA and relative south of Death Mountain during FS).
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  #65 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 01:02 AM
Jedi Master Sagan Jedi Master Sagan is a male United States Jedi Master Sagan is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

The problem with separating FS and FSA as the Historia does is that according to FS, the princess of Hyrule has the task of maintaining Vaati's prison. However, the version of the Royal Family in the child branch is arguably the strongest, due to a significant lack of crises weakening them as in the decline or adult branches. Yet even they are unable to prevent his escape prior to FSA. So then, Vaati presumably would have also escaped in the other two branches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvagia_slayer View Post
Even though that would make sense, the rest of the evidence doesn't back up that idea. So we just have to assume that this is an exception to the rule that would normally make sense, or else we have to assume that both KG and the FSA prologue and packing material is mistaken. The former option is the simpler of the two that fits all the data.
Why would the narration make an exception in this one case for no reason? That makes no sense. You're really reaching here.

Anyway, I believe the box in question is the NoA version, and as such is automatically superseded by the game itself. Or need I remind you that Ganondorf's surname is "Dragmire?"

As for the owl, here's the context:
Quote:
Four Sword pedestal:
やはり、その剣の運命を受け入れるというのだな?
So you accept the fate of this sword?
So you accept the fate of the one who draws this sword?

*Hero draws sword, gets caught in whirlwind as Vaati escapes*

That owl:
リンクよ、運命を受け入れた勇者よ。
O Link, hero who accepted the fate.
Link... You have accepted the destiny of the hero...
The owl is clearly referring to the same fate as the pedestal, since those two lines bracket the act of drawing the Four Sword. As such, it's most likely referring to the ability of the sword to create aspects, and the fact that they'll remain separate until the quest is over.

Quote:
How can it be the same Zelda when she introduces herself to Link in the Oracles game? Besides, I was specifically talking about games which are confirmed to be sequels in-game. Like MM to OoT, AoL to LoZ, PH to TWW, etc.
*shrugs* Hey, take it up with Aonuma. I actually agree with you on that.
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I'd call you our resident science fairy but you have more of a tendency to bulldoze over theories and "science bulldozer" just doesn't have that nickname sparkle.
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  #66 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 08:28 AM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
*shrugs* Hey, take it up with Aonuma. I actually agree with you on that.
I'll take this one.

Before SS was revealed to have started the naming tradition, the AoL BS explained it all. Every female born into the Royal Family was to be named Zelda. Meaning if Prince so and so has twin daughters, they'd both have to be named Zelda.

OoX counted towards that tradition.
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  #67 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 09:42 AM
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

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Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper View Post
I'll take this one.

Before SS was revealed to have started the naming tradition, the AoL BS explained it all. Every female born into the Royal Family was to be named Zelda. Meaning if Prince so and so has twin daughters, they'd both have to be named Zelda.

OoX counted towards that tradition.
I thought the whole naming tradition took place sometime after the events of OoX. Oh well, I don't know really.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see what you're saying. You're saying that at the time of OoX's release, the official explanation was that of the AoL BS.
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Originally Posted by Ganon Vader View Post
It's good that Ganon got revived for LOZ because when he invaded Hyrule, he destroyed all of its linearity.
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  #68 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 09:45 AM
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by AStinkToThePast View Post
I thought the whole naming tradition took place sometime after the events of OoX. Oh well, I don't know really.
The tradition was since the begining. But with the events of Sleeping Zelda the prince made it law for all the female born in the royal family to be named Zelda.
  #69 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 09:49 AM
Nagumo Nagumo is a female Netherlands Nagumo is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

I think Zelda introduces herself to Link because, at the end of ALttP, Link's wish rewinded the world to its orginal state (the King and Link's Uncle were revived for example), so I think it was like Link and Zelda never met, though Link probably retained memories of what happend. Also, it was the Triforce what brought Link to Hyrule Castle at the beginning of the game, so it wasn't because he was acquainted with Zelda or anything like that. I believe the manual mentions no such thing but I could be disremembering.
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  #70 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 11:52 AM
The Baton of the Wind The Baton of the Wind is a male United States The Baton of the Wind is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
What do you mean? The fact that Zelda and Link are specified by name in the prologue when talking about Vaati's escape and subsequent re-imprisonment indicates that it's the same pair, since Heroes are never mentioned by name after their own eras. Unless you mean between the prelude to FSA and the events of the FS legend itself, in which case I agree with you that we don't know how much time passed between the events of the FS legend and FSA, so the prelude to FSA might actually not be FS itself. Despite my own feelings on how that affects the narrative.
What I mean is that though it gives names, it still doesn't say whether or not it was long ago or just a time before. And who is to say they are never by name after their own era? Each legend is unique, and some legends are going to have more details than another. A name can be carried down through legend. Ever heard of Abraham?
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Translations:

SS --- TWW

1...........1
2...........2
3...........3
4...........4
5...........5
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  #71 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 01:18 PM
riomhaire riomhaire is a male Ireland riomhaire is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
I think Zelda introduces herself to Link because, at the end of ALttP, Link's wish rewinded the world to its orginal state (the King and Link's Uncle were revived for example), so I think it was like Link and Zelda never met, though Link probably retained memories of what happend. Also, it was the Triforce what brought Link to Hyrule Castle at the beginning of the game, so it wasn't because he was acquainted with Zelda or anything like that. I believe the manual mentions no such thing but I could be disremembering.
If you take Ancient Stone Tablets as canon (most people, including seemingly Nintendo, don't) then she definitely knows who Link is and the fact that Link saved the world from Ganon is widespread knowledge.
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  #72 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 01:26 PM
The Baton of the Wind The Baton of the Wind is a male United States The Baton of the Wind is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by riomhaire View Post
If you take Ancient Stone Tablets as canon (most people, including seemingly Nintendo, don't)
Seemingly? Not only did they never give it the time of day since its release, but they made it pretty clear that it was never intended to be included in anyway (And how could it?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrule Historia: Page 68

年代記に含まない作品について
About the works not included in the chronology.

シリーズには、ほかにも「リンクのボウガントレーコング」やスピンオフ作品などがあるが、年代 記の中には含 めていない。
In the series, there is also "Link's Crossbow Training" and other spin-offs, but they're not included in the chronology.
The quote itself doesn't say anything about AST, but the page itself contains a screenshot of AST. See for yourself.
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---Hyrule Historia Translations -Revisited, Reviewed & Revised - Japanese Text Included---


Translations:

SS --- TWW

1...........1
2...........2
3...........3
4...........4
5...........5
  #73 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 01:46 PM
Nagumo Nagumo is a female Netherlands Nagumo is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by riomhaire View Post
If you take Ancient Stone Tablets as canon (most people, including seemingly Nintendo, don't) then she definitely knows who Link is and the fact that Link saved the world from Ganon is widespread knowledge.
Yes, I thought about that too. Well, it could still work if you place AST after the Oracle games, I guess.
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  #74 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 06:33 PM
Volvagia_slayer Volvagia_slayer is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
Why would the narration make an exception in this one case for no reason? That makes no sense. You're really reaching here.
Well it's not like it's that big of an exception since there really isn't much of a precedent for it. I think that it would be a lot simpler if the two Links were the same, but the KG quote keeps me from believing they're the same guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
The owl is clearly referring to the same fate as the pedestal, since those two lines bracket the act of drawing the Four Sword.
Right, but FS Link also drew the sword from the pedestal, and he didn't hear anything about accepting the fate of the hero when he pulled it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by riomhaire View Post
If you take Ancient Stone Tablets as canon (most people, including seemingly Nintendo, don't) then she definitely knows who Link is and the fact that Link saved the world from Ganon is widespread knowledge.
You don't even need AST since LA tells us that the people of Hyrule knew about Link killing Ganon and saving their land. (The only real potential workaround here that I can think of is if you think LA is referring to OoX Link killing Ganon in those games, and killing him away from Hyrule somehow both saved Hyrule and fulfilled the Hyrulian Prophcy. Otherwise LA is definitely referring to the events of ALttP.)
  #75 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 10:34 PM
Jedi Master Sagan Jedi Master Sagan is a male United States Jedi Master Sagan is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvagia_slayer View Post
Well it's not like it's that big of an exception since there really isn't much of a precedent for it. I think that it would be a lot simpler if the two Links were the same, but the KG quote keeps me from believing they're the same guy.
Except all the games that came after FSA also hold to that policy of not naming other Heroes. Which makes sense, because it avoids confusion over just who "Link" refers to. Anyway, we don't actually know that the owl specifically meant "you became a Hero for the first time a couple hours ago." For all we know he could have meant "you became a Hero a while back, and now you're needed again." *shrugs*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvagia_slayer View Post
Right, but FS Link also drew the sword from the pedestal, and he didn't hear anything about accepting the fate of the hero when he pulled it.
Well, I have a couple of takes on that. The first is that the lines attributed to the pedestal aren't actually spoken lines at all, but instead artifacts of the medium, like the item get messages.

The SOD take is that the lines aren't spoken by the pedestal, but rather the sword itself. In FS, Vaati had already escaped and the sword was necessary to reseal him, so asking was redundant. But in FSA, Vaati was still imprisoned. In hindsight, it's obvious that a holy blade was necessary to defeat Ganon, but at the time the only enemy Link and the sword would have been aware of was the Shadow Link, and which could be handled without the Four Sword. So the sword was asking if Link was willing to accept the responsibility for releasing Vaati again and use its power to defeat Vaati once more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind View Post
What I mean is that though it gives names, it still doesn't say whether or not it was long ago or just a time before. And who is to say they are never by name after their own era? Each legend is unique, and some legends are going to have more details than another. A name can be carried down through legend. Ever heard of Abraham?
ST, for one. Even though Nico knew the Hero of Wind personally, he always just refers to him as his old friend. Yes, I am well aware that, in game, the Heroes' names probably do get remembered. But I believe that not actually ever referring to them by name in game is a deliberate decision on Nintendo's part to distinguish between the current Hero and all the rest.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamtos View Post
I'd call you our resident science fairy but you have more of a tendency to bulldoze over theories and "science bulldozer" just doesn't have that nickname sparkle.
Last Edited by Jedi Master Sagan; 08-01-2012 at 10:48 PM. Reason:
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  #76 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-02-2012, 04:11 PM
Volvagia_slayer Volvagia_slayer is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
The SOD take is that the lines aren't spoken by the pedestal, but rather the sword itself.
SOD?
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  #77 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-02-2012, 09:08 PM
The Doctor The Doctor is a male United States The Doctor is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

I always thought that the basic explanation for Zelda introducing herself in OoX was just for the player's benefit if they hadn't played Zelda before and didn't recognize her.
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  #78 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-02-2012, 11:10 PM
Jedi Master Sagan Jedi Master Sagan is a male United States Jedi Master Sagan is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvagia_slayer View Post
SOD?
Suspension on disbelief. Basically, assuming as much as possible that what you see is what actually happened in universe.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamtos View Post
I'd call you our resident science fairy but you have more of a tendency to bulldoze over theories and "science bulldozer" just doesn't have that nickname sparkle.
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  #79 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-03-2012, 09:39 AM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
I always thought that the basic explanation for Zelda introducing herself in OoX was just for the player's benefit if they hadn't played Zelda before and didn't recognize her.
That's the real life (our world) reason.
We're talking about the in universe reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
Suspension on disbelief. Basically, assuming as much as possible that what you see is what actually happened in universe.
But what about what you don't see.
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  #80 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-03-2012, 08:54 PM
Jedi Master Sagan Jedi Master Sagan is a male United States Jedi Master Sagan is offline
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Re: TP-FSA connection, Zelda Informer theory

What about it? We can extrapolate stuff based on what we see, but we don't know any of it happened for certain. It'd be stuff not covered in the documentary we're watching.
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Originally Posted by gamtos View Post
I'd call you our resident science fairy but you have more of a tendency to bulldoze over theories and "science bulldozer" just doesn't have that nickname sparkle.
Last Edited by Jedi Master Sagan; 08-03-2012 at 08:56 PM. Reason:
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