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  #81 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-31-2012, 12:26 PM
tlozbj tlozbj is a male Puerto Rico tlozbj is online now
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestria View Post
Which is in direct contradiction to what Wind Waker points out over and over again:

"But the hero did not appear."


Where does it say he was "pulling the light world into the dark world"? You can't just pull stuff like that out of no where, you have to have something to back it up.

It seems to me like he was just angry and assaulting all of Hyrule in order to exact revenge for being sealed, which is pretty much what he said he'd do at the end of Ocarina of Time.


How do we know it wasn't just a rumor? The sign says "The legendary hero was said to come here", not "The legendary hero came here." There is a difference, the former implying that it's just a rumor and not a solid fact.


They're just depictions, tlozbj. They're not intended to be 100% accurate. However, the first image of Link shows him battling Ganon, which did happen in OoT. The second one shows him on a horse, yes, but he did have a horse in OoT... Epona.


I don't understand how this is relevant?


Again, it's just a depiction. Do you expect any and all drawings to be 100% accurate?


Forgive me for repeating myself, BUT IT'S JUST A DEPICTION. Jesus x_x


Or, a simpler explanation... Zelda simply told people the truth about how he time-traveled.
But the People of Hyrule did not know about time travel and Zelda couldn't be that gossipy. The opening says o continue his dark designs. But if there was a rumor there must had been sightings of he going and returning healed. Yes they are depictions. But te last is diferent to first 2 so they just decided to change the tunic,appaerance and sword of the hero,no it was a completely diferent Link. Yes he had Epona but after he sealed Ganon he didn't used her. So It is another Link.
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  #82 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-31-2012, 12:28 PM
keyaki keyaki is a male keyaki is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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The opening says o continue his dark designs.
"To continue his dark designs" = To continue where he left off in the AT in OoT!

Cmon!
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  #83 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-31-2012, 12:31 PM
tlozbj tlozbj is a male Puerto Rico tlozbj is online now
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by keyaki View Post
"To continue his dark designs" = To continue where he left off in the AT in OoT!

Cmon!
He conquered Hyrule that was his plan/design and he achieve it. But he got sealed but his plan got to happen. If it where the same dark designs it would say: to start over,restart,etc
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:34 PM
keyaki keyaki is a male keyaki is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
He conquered Hyrule that was his plan/design and he achieve it. But he got sealed but his plan got to happen. If it where the same dark designs it would say: to start over,restart,etc
What logic is that? He was simply going to pick-up where he left off. Retake over Hyrule.
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  #85 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-31-2012, 12:34 PM
Her Grace Her Grace is a male United Kingdom Her Grace is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
There are more heroes between OoT and WW. In the opening of WW clearly says that Ganon broke free once again to continue his dark designs. The same designs he was doing in FSA pulling the lght world into the dark world. Also forest haven surely is kokiri forest and outset island would be the mountain entrance to Lake Hylia. OoT Link never went to a great fairy fountain there and the sign says that a hero went there. So a hero most go there for the sign to be correct. All the Link seen in the WW legend are depicted diferently. We see OoT Link sealing Ganon. ALttp/oracle/LA Link going away in a horse just like the ending or beginning of one of the oracles. Zelda 1-2 have the descendant of ALttp link so it automatically falls after it. In the end of the legend we see four sword saga Link. Yes FSS Link. Same tunic,apparance and sword. He is also standing in the wind. The only way for that to happen is Link to be in Vaati's palace. Do not go by simple eyeview. You most interpret everything more than it seems. Also the people of Hyrule where not suppose to know about time travel in OoT. But it is mention that the hero time travel. Explanation more than hero appaer in Hyrule and disapaer and the people atributed to time travel. Also the opening says Ganon got the golden power. When he only obtain a part of it. Now lets see what Ganon have the golden power. Yes the ALttp Ganon he is the only to have the golden power and not a part of it.
That is subjective, not factual. Ganon as seen in Four Swords Adventures was a reincarnation of one who had been killed, not a man who just broke out of the Sacred Realm. He, likewise, lacked the Triforce of Power. The Wind Waker states that Ganondorf broke out of the Sacred Realm some years after Ocarina of Time and attacked Hyrule with no heroes present, followed directly by the land being flooded by the Golden Goddesses. It specifically points out that there were no heroes and he only came back once, and that one time was not as a reincarnation. The reason Link appears as riding a horse in the backstory is because he did so during Ocarina of Time and the said horse was famous in her own right. Most of the backstory is only referencing the events of Ocarina of Time alone; what little it does reference afterwards is how Ganondorf escaped the Sacred Realm, the people of Hyrule waited for a hero to turn up, but none did and Hyrule was buried beneath the sea.

You are going upon very shakey and unreliable evidence of heroes existing between Ocarina of Time's adult ending and The Wind Waker. As I pointed out in my previous post, the family hero shield from The Minish Cap is more logically explainable as having simply not appeared in Ocarina of Time just as how we don't see every location of Hyrule in one game. The tiny change of design depicting the Hero of Time statue in The Wind Waker is down to the art style of the game (every cel-shaded style uses that exact design for every Link thus far) and the unless someone very old and wise says a hero really did visit a certain fairy cave at some point, it should be taken with a grain of salt. We don't know the truth behind that claim until see a game about it, an actual reliable folklore character say so, or we see actual depictions of the event. One sign telling a rumour isn't reliable enough to say a hero actually did exist recently. I would accept such a claim more if a Gossip Stone stated such a thing. Even then, for all we know, the unknown hero could have just been someone highly respected for good deeds to many people (saving children from Moblins, for example), but not saving the world from Ganondorf in some unrecorded and contradicted event.
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  #86 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-31-2012, 12:37 PM
Teekay Teekay is a male United States Teekay is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
But the People of Hyrule did not know about time travel and Zelda cannot be that gossipy.
It has nothing to do with whether or not she's a gossiper. She could give some kind of royal speech or release an official accounting of how Link saved Hyrule. I don't know how she could've done it, but there's no reason to think she wouldn't want her own citizens to know how Link saved them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
The opening says o continue his dark designs.
Yes, and? His intentions were to take over Hyrule and eventually the world, but first he needs the full Triforce. He continues trying to get it in Wind Waker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
But if there was a rumor there must had been sightings of he going and returning healed.
That's not what a rumor is. Rumors can be true or false, and typically don't have good evidence to support them one way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
Yes they are depictions. But te last is diferent to first 2 so they just decided to change the tunic,appaerance and sword of the hero,no it was a completely diferent Link.
Since you seem to take everything way too literally, why don't you notice that the last image of "Link" is shown when the prologue talks about how boys of Outset Island dress like Link and aspire to get swords and strike down evil? If anything that's just a depiction of some typical boy from Outset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
Yes he had Epona but after he sealed Ganon he didn't used her. So It is another Link.
So? Why do you think drawings have to be accurate? Do you think Hyrule Castle is really black, and that Hyrule itself is a light brown color? Are the clouds in the sky actually made up of black, swirly lines? Of course not.

That image shows Link on Epona because that's a good way to remember a hero. It's better for story-telling than showing an image of him sitting in the sky with a sad-face before being sent to his own time.
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  #87 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 07-31-2012, 01:53 PM
The King of Red Lions The King of Red Lions is a male United States The King of Red Lions is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

Why is the sign by the fairy fountain being dismissed as insufficient evidence? Just like if someone said it in the game, Nintendo included that in the game for a reason.
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Old 08-01-2012, 12:01 AM
Jedi Master Sagan Jedi Master Sagan is a male United States Jedi Master Sagan is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by Celestria View Post
Which is in direct contradiction to what Wind Waker points out over and over again:

"But the hero did not appear."
Except the legend has degraded to the point of uselessness. Even accepting it at face value, the Hero only failed to appear at the time of the Flood. It has no bearing on any other Heroes that might have appeared before that, especially by then it had been so long since the last appearance of a Hero that the Hero of Time was a mythical figure.

Quote:
Or, a simpler explanation... Zelda simply told people the truth about how he time-traveled.
Why would, hundreds or thousands of years later, the people remember something that they had to be informed about but not the name of the lost kingdom or the fact that they are descended from the survivors?
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  #89 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 08:40 AM
Teekay Teekay is a male United States Teekay is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
Except the legend has degraded to the point of uselessness. Even accepting it at face value, the Hero only failed to appear at the time of the Flood. It has no bearing on any other Heroes that might have appeared before that, especially by then it had been so long since the last appearance of a Hero that the Hero of Time was a mythical figure.

Why would, hundreds or thousands of years later, the people remember something that they had to be informed about but not the name of the lost kingdom or the fact that they are descended from the survivors?
I don't know why they only remembered specific information, but that's just what happened... and it's not the first time. The Triforce isn't even mentioned during the events of TMC and FS, despite it's symbolism being everywhere in the former. Same goes with TP, where it's only referred to as "the power of the gods."

Besides, I think we're getting too caught up on details and forgetting the obvious-- Nintendo has always intended for the period between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker to have been without a hero, and for the prologue of Wind Waker to be referring to the events of Ocarina of Time and not some other game:

Question: Where does The Wind Waker fit into the overall timeline of the Legend of Zelda?
Mr. Aonuma: In terms of the storyline, we've decided that this takes place 100 years after the events in The Ocarina of Time. We think that as you play through the game, you'll notice that in the beginning the storyline explains some of the events in The Ocarina of Time. You'll also find hints of things from The Ocarina of Time that exist in The Wind Waker.
Mr. Aonuma: There's also a more complicated explanation. If you think back to the end of The Ocarina of Time, there were two endings to that game in different time periods. First Link defeated Ganon as an adult, and then he actually went back to being a child. You could say that The Wind Waker takes place 100 years after the ending in which Link was an adult.


I also want to point out that every interview regarding the period between OoT and WW is said to have lasted 100 years, according to Aonuma, so it doesn't look like they intended for there to be room for extra events.

And of course, Hyrule Historia calls the period between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker The Era without a Hero for a reason...
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  #90 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 08:46 AM
tlozbj tlozbj is a male Puerto Rico tlozbj is online now
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

The 100 years passed thing was a error. He meant hundreds. Because itis imposible for the people to forget about the kingdom in just 100 years. HH haven't release in the US so it is not canon here. Also the translations are Fan made. Also if you believe everything writen in the book. Then for you Ganondorf is not the King of thieves but the Prince of thieves.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:56 AM
Teekay Teekay is a male United States Teekay is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
The 100 years passed thing was a error. He meant hundreds.
That might be the case, but it still doesn't explain why Aonuma seems to think the prologue of Wind Waker refers to OoT only, and why that period is called the Era without a Hero... that is, if we go by your theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
HH haven't release in the US so it is not canon here.
You know, I've mentioned this to you before, but just because it wasn't released here doesn't mean it's not canon. After all, Zelda is made by a Japanese company... so if they were to suddenly release a huge Zelda game only in Japan, would that magically mean it doesn't fit into the rest of the series continuity? Of course not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
Also the translations are Fan made.
Why should that matter? It's just converting from one language to another. If a fan can speak and read Japanese, why should their translation not be considered? So far there have been several translations of HH and most are roughly the same, yet you think just because fans translated it, it doesn't count?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
Also if you believe everything writen in the book. Then for you Ganondorf is not the King of thieves but the Prince of thieves.
Why should that matter as well? Sounds to me like that was just his title at some point, and he's had many titles, so I don't see the problem here.
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  #92 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 09:07 AM
tlozbj tlozbj is a male Puerto Rico tlozbj is online now
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by Celestria View Post
1.That might be the case, but it still doesn't explain why Aonuma seems to think the prologue of Wind Waker refers to OoT only, and why that period is called the Era without a Hero... that is, if we go by your theory.


2.You know, I've mentioned this to you before, but just because it wasn't released here doesn't mean it's not canon. After all, Zelda is made by a Japanese company... so if they were to suddenly release a huge Zelda game only in Japan, would that magically mean it doesn't fit into the rest of the series continuity? Of course not.


3.Why should that matter? It's just converting from one language to another. If a fan can speak and read Japanese, why should their translation not be considered? So far there have been several translations of HH and most are roughly the same, yet you think just because fans translated it, it doesn't count?


4.Why should that matter as well? Sounds to me like that was just his title at some point, and he's had many titles, so I don't see the problem here.
1. The old man to not play the games he is just the diretor or whatever position he have. The era withough a hero is the era where Ganon break free of the seal of the FS.

2.Till the game is not release outside of Japan it is not canon in other countries. Yes I am refering to the tingle games. They are canon over there and kinda fit in the Zelda timeline. But they are not release outside of the eastern side so not cannon over here.

3-But it is not a official translation. It does count but it is still not official and/or canon.

4- The gerudo seem to disagree with you. They say that the man born each 100 years is crowned as King of thieves. Also the Ganondorf they would speak of his OOT Ganondorf. So before you say he was young and was call prince. He was old enough and was called the King of thieves.
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Old 08-01-2012, 09:57 AM
The King of Red Lions The King of Red Lions is a male United States The King of Red Lions is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by Celestria View Post
I don't know why they only remembered specific information, but that's just what happened... and it's not the first time. The Triforce isn't even mentioned during the events of TMC and FS, despite it's symbolism being everywhere in the former. Same goes with TP, where it's only referred to as "the power of the gods."
Well at the end of SS, only Link, Zelda, and maybe Groose had knowledge of the Triforce. If it's supposed to be kept a secret so it can be safe then why would they tell people? Also in OoT only Zelda and the Great Deku Tree (well and Ganondorf) show that they know of the Triforce.

Nobody knows of it in TWW and after that it's not even mentioned.

Does anybody other than the Light Spirits talk about the Triforce? I don't think so?

And in the DT it's known but it's not clear whether or not the common man knows of it, except for ALTTP.

So if you're going by the HH timeline then it shows that the Triforce is not commonly known.

So I think you're point is invalid.
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:00 AM
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

Forgive me if this has already been suggested, and I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, but perhaps the appearances of other heroes is the reason why the people in the Wind Waker backstory believed that the Hero of Time would return?

Perhaps the other legends got mixed in with the legend of OoT, and people thought that the appearances of other heroes in between OoT and WW were just reappearances of the Hero of Time?
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:47 AM
Teekay Teekay is a male United States Teekay is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
1. The old man to not play the games he is just the diretor or whatever position he have.
Where on earth are you getting this information? Of course he plays the games... in fact he's stated in the past that his favorite game is ALttP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
The era withough a hero is the era where Ganon break free of the seal of the FS.
You're just making that up. Go look in HH and find me another era between OoT and WW.

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Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
2.Till the game is not release outside of Japan it is not canon in other countries.
That's not how it works. It doesn't matter where it's released. For example, Doctor Who doesn't air in Nigeria, but what if a Nigerian wanted to download it? Just because it doesn't air in Nigeria, what they watch somehow isn't canon? That wouldn't make sense, at all, and the same logic applies to games.

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Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
Yes I am refering to the tingle games. They are canon over there and kinda fit in the Zelda timeline. But they are not release outside of the eastern side so not cannon over here.
Wrong. They're spin-offs and I've never seen any evidence that they're canon in Japan. In fact I think even HH makes references to them being spin-offs, but I'd have to double-check.

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Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
3-But it is not a official translation. It does count but it is still not official and/or canon.
An official person doesn't have to translate it for us to know what it says. What does it matter if some guy in Nintendo of America translates it, or some guy over at ZeldaInformer? There's no difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
4- The gerudo seem to disagree with you. They say that the man born each 100 years is crowned as King of thieves. Also the Ganondorf they would speak of his OOT Ganondorf. So before you say he was young and was call prince. He was old enough and was called the King of thieves.
I still have no clue where in HH he's called the Prince of Thieves, and why that matters at all. Prince of Thieves, King of Thieves... it doesn't matter. He's just their leader, end of story.

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Originally Posted by The King of Red Lions View Post
Well at the end of SS, only Link, Zelda, and maybe Groose had knowledge of the Triforce. If it's supposed to be kept a secret so it can be safe then why would they tell people? Also in OoT only Zelda and the Great Deku Tree (well and Ganondorf) show that they know of the Triforce.
The Composer Brothers mention it, and a woman in Castle Town knows of the Sacred Realm, which means she must also know of the Triforce. If some random woman knows about it, surely more would.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The King of Red Lions View Post
Does anybody other than the Light Spirits talk about the Triforce? I don't think so?
Zelda, the sages, and the Light Spirits. But I never said people knew about it-- just that they didn't seem to know it's name, or at least don't mention it.

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Originally Posted by The King of Red Lions View Post
So I think you're point is invalid.
How does that invalidate my point? It only strengthens it, because it shows how knowledge of something so well-known can fade over time. We know there were times when all sorts of people knew about the Triforce because that's the whole point of the Era of Chaos. The people of Hyrule tried to seek out the Triforce and ultimately fought one another for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AStinkToThePast View Post
Forgive me if this has already been suggested, and I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, but perhaps the appearances of other heroes is the reason why the people in the Wind Waker backstory believed that the Hero of Time would return?

Perhaps the other legends got mixed in with the legend of OoT, and people thought that the appearances of other heroes in between OoT and WW were just reappearances of the Hero of Time?
That wouldn't really make sense. From the perspective of anyone living during the 7 years when Ganondorf took over Hyrule, a hero just appeared out of no-where and defeated him. Once that story spread around, people believed that the same thing would happen should Ganon ever return. It makes far more sense than everyone getting confused.
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Old 08-01-2012, 11:59 AM
tlozbj tlozbj is a male Puerto Rico tlozbj is online now
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by Celestria View Post
1.The Composer Brothers mention it, and a woman in Castle Town knows of the Sacred Realm, which means she must also know of the Triforce. If some random woman knows about it, surely more would.


2.We know there were times when all sorts of people knew about the Triforce because that's the whole point of the Era of Chaos. The people of Hyrule tried to seek out the Triforce and ultimately fought one another for it.
1. The composer brother had a connection to the royal family. That explains why they where buried in front of the royal family tomb. They could have easily heard of the triforce there. The old lady seems to know things that will happen. If that is the woman you mention.

2. Yes but wasn't the triforce forgotten since SS to MC . If wars happen so close to the games wouldn't the people of Hyrule remember the triforce. Only explanation Mc happens centuries after the royal family who used the triforce. If you want a more detailed explanation read the timeline part of the Hero of men.
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Old 08-01-2012, 12:06 PM
The King of Red Lions The King of Red Lions is a male United States The King of Red Lions is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by Celestria View Post
That wouldn't really make sense. From the perspective of anyone living during the 7 years when Ganondorf took over Hyrule, a hero just appeared out of no-where and defeated him. Once that story spread around, people believed that the same thing would happen should Ganon ever return. It makes far more sense than everyone getting confused.
I think you misunderstood him. He means that whenever another hero appeared they thought he was the Hero of Time.

He's supporting tlozbj here in saying that other Hero's could've appeared in between OoT and TWW and the people merely confused him with the HoT. Which sounds conceivable, I mean, a hero appearing out of nowhere to save the world? And then the Hero randomly disappears? People would probably think it's the same spirit who comes to help whenever he's needed.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:12 PM
Teekay Teekay is a male United States Teekay is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
1. The composer brother had a connection to the royal family. That explains why they where buried in front of the royal family tomb. They could have easily heard of the triforce there. The old lady seems to know things that will happen. If that is the woman you mention.
Nope, a young woman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
2. Yes but wasn't the triforce forgotten since SS to MC . If wars happen so close to the games wouldn't the people of Hyrule remember the triforce. Only explanation Mc happens centuries after the royal family who used the triforce. If you want a more detailed explanation read the timeline part of the Hero of men.
Except we don't know how much time passed between the Era of Chaos and TMC. For all we know it could've been thousands of years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The King of Red Lions View Post
I think you misunderstood him. He means that whenever another hero appeared they thought he was the Hero of Time.

He's supporting tlozbj here in saying that other Hero's could've appeared in between OoT and TWW and the people merely confused him with the HoT. Which sounds conceivable, I mean, a hero appearing out of nowhere to save the world? And then the Hero randomly disappears? People would probably think it's the same spirit who comes to help whenever he's needed.
I'd believe it if there were proof... it's just how I am. But seeing as how there appears to be no such intention, tlozbj is having to scrape for evidence in order to support his theory, all of which is quite subjective, so I just don't buy it.
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  #99 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 08-01-2012, 02:20 PM
tlozbj tlozbj is a male Puerto Rico tlozbj is online now
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by Celestria View Post
Nope, a young woman.


Except we don't know how much time passed between the Era of Chaos and TMC. For all we know it could've been thousands of years.

I'd believe it if there were proof... it's just how I am. But seeing as how there appears to be no such intention, tlozbj is having to scrape for evidence in order to support his theory, all of which is quite subjective, so I just don't buy it.
Which one?

But still the triforce should had been mention. Read the hero of men and light force explanation section of the theory to further understand.

Scrape?
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:25 PM
Teekay Teekay is a male United States Teekay is offline
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Re: My timeline with the explanation

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Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
Which one?
I dunno her name, she has light-blue clothes if I'm remembering correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlozbj View Post
Scrape?
Meaning, there's no direct implications of there being any games between OoT and WW, so you're having to try kind of hard to find evidence... at least I think so.
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