A Cyclic Timeline?

This idea originally started as a joke to end an argument about a sequel to Spirit Tracks being impossible. Then, as I started to think about it, I thought that the idea seems plausible. So here it is:

CYCLIC TIMELINE

I'm actually starting to believe that Nintendo's plan is to join up the adult timeline with the birth of Hyrule, creating a cycle. What I mean is, after the end of Spirit Tracks, the Triforce is created, war between Hylia and Demise occurs, and Skyward Sword begins.

Before you dismiss my theory, listen: New Hyrule was discovered after the Old Hyrule was flooded. The Demon King Malladus shown in Spirit Tracks bares many similarities to Demise. (The fiery red hair, the horns, the yellow eyes, etc.) He also has a loyal servant, Chancellor Cole, who could be replaced later with Ghirahim, and he was sealed beneath shackles by the 'Spirits of Good' prior to Spirit Tracks. Who isn't to say he broke free again in order to steal the Triforce?



However, during Spirit Tracks, the Triforce was absent...maybe not even existent. Well, what if the Golden Goddesses returned, reincarnated as the 'Spirits of Good' and created the Triforce. There is evidence for this, as the Lokomo symbol contains a lone golden triangle in the centre of an arc. (I will not go into the Tetraforce theory.) After this, Malladus/Demise made him escape and tried to war with Hylia. Then, the events of Skyward Sword took place?

What if the seven Lokomos are reincarnations of the Seven Sages of the Master Sword? This theory makes sense, as each Lokomo also has his/her corresponding element, and Anjean gave Link the Lokomo Sword: possibly an early incarnation of the Goddess Sword?



But some of you may say that Zelda must be one of them to complete the group, as she was the Seventh Sage. Well, some people actually believe that Anjean is Tetra, hence the hairstyle, the mystery surrounding her knowledge of Zelda & Link. Also, she continuously says "Her ancestors would be proud of her", either referring to Tetra directly, or talking about herself.

Now let's look at the map of New Hyrule, in comparison to the Surface:



You will notice that the Snow Realm lies perfectly beneath the Thunderhead, which remains undiscovered in Skyward Sword. This, coincidentally, matches perfectly, as before beating the Blizzard Temple in Spirit Tracks, there is in fact a Thunderhead surrounding the temple!

Now for other locations. Looking at the neighbouring Fire Realm, I think it is safe to say that this could be a further incarnation of Death Mountain/Eldin Volcano. It is a fairly flat, actively volcanic mountain inhabited by Gorons, so the connections are easily made.

But what about the other two realms? Well, let's start with the Ocean Realm. Remember how we saw that Faron was flooded by the Water Dragon? What if it was originally an ocean, but Faron drained it to form land? What if the Ocean Realm becomes Faron Woods, and the Marine Temple becomes Faron's Spring/Ancient Cistern?

As for the Forest Realm...well, Lanayru Desert was once a grassy green plain... Over a long period of time, it dried up. So was the Forest Realm the original Lanayru Desert? Well, where is the Sand Sea? Of course, it lies to the west of the desert...which, coincidentally, is where Outset/Aboda Village and the entrance to the Dark Realm lies! In the ocean! Or would it be more reasonable to say that the Demon Altar became the Temple of Time...



Finally, there is the case of Force Gems. In Spirit Tracks, Carben states that they are produced 'when somebody's gratitude is so powerful, it forms a crystal'. Does this sound familiar?



Of course! Gratitude Crystals! If Force Gems are forms of Gratitude Crystals, that means that they have existed for millenia! This surely proves that the people of New Hyrule and the people o Skyloft have some sort of ability which connects them?

Now for my latest piece of evidence: Rabbits!

In Ocarina of Time, Rabbits which used to wander Hyrule Field became extinct due to poaching, hence the Poacher's Saw seen in the Biggoron Trade Quest. When you give the Bunny Hood to the Running Man, he says it reminds him of those rabbits, and wears it in an attempt to run like one. (Which is what the Bunny Hood does in Majora's Mask.)

Rabbits were never seen again after the Great Flood until the birth of New Hyrule. Rabbits were still alive and breeding here, so the Hylians could save the species. The way they did this, of course, was with the construction of Rabbits Haven. The Rabbit man states that rabbits must be kept there to 'protect them from harm'. Could this be poaching?



If the Rabbits are under threat, does that mean that in a few centuries or even decades, they will die out totally? What if this then leads on to Ocarina of Time again, and so completes the cycle?

Now onto technology. And to one person in particular:



So Beedle is first seen in Wind Waker as a humble ship merchant. He continues this trade during Phantom Hourglass. But then when we reach Spirit Tracks, we find that he has upgraded to an Air Ship. So where else do we see an Air Ship in Zelda?



Yes, all the way back to Skyward Sword. Now, I'm not in any way trying to say that this Beadle is the same Beedle. But I just feel that this jump in technology, from an Air Ship, to a Ship, to an Air Ship again, is too great to ignore. Wouldn't it be more likely if Skyward Sword happened after Spirit Tracks?

This would explain how such technology is available in Skyward Sword. And how to explain why Beedle reverted back to ships? Well, after the Great Flood, his ancestors would have to start again like everyone else.

If my theory turns out to be correct, this would change the shape of the timeline completely. It would sort of resemble a circle with a tangeant representing the child timeline veering off from the cycle. Does anybody catch my drift? Or is this all nonsense to you?

I'm going to guess the general consensus will be 'unlikely'.

To begin the Triforce was never destroyed or removed, it granted its wish and returned to the Sacred Realm, you're proposing creating a never ending number of Triforces. Considering when the Triforce grants a wish it has never just ceased to exist was can safely assume this occasion was no different.

Secondly the Goddesses descended to create land, laws(presumably physics) and life forms. You're effectively implying armageddon happened after Spirit Tracks. How? Why?

Finally not one of your comparisons appears valid. Similarities between Demise and Malladus? Malladus is effectively descended from Demise, of course they'd be similar. But only one of your comparisons remains valid anyway. The yellow eyes are the only similarity. Neither Demise nor Malladus had horns and Malladus didn't have red hair. Cole did, Malladus got them during the possession which was fleeting and ineffectual. In addition in terms of mentality Demise was eloquent and intelligent while Malladus was essentially Leeroy Jenkins.

The swords are similar only in terms of colour, nothing else is comparable.

The map doesn't add up, no matter how you rationalize it. You can't flip it, let alone half of it.

I'm certain there's more to be argued against it that I've failed to note.

There is no connection or viable logic here, I'd drop this one quickly my young chum.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

To begin the Triforce was never destroyed or removed, it granted its wish and returned to the Sacred Realm, you're proposing creating a never ending number of Triforces. Considering when the Triforce grants a wish it has never just ceased to exist was can safely assume this occasion was no different.

So in Skyward Sword, when Link made a wish on the Triforce, it ascended to the Sacred Realm? Then it must have been touched by Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time, and then split, and then reunited in Wind Waker. Nobody knows what happened to it after Wind Waker, so anything's possible, right?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Secondly the Goddesses descended to create land, laws(presumably physics) and life forms. You're effectively implying armageddon happened after Spirit Tracks. How? Why?

Okay, so maybe the Goddesses didn't descend again..but I'm sure Hylia vs Demise could have taken place after Spirit Tracks.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Finally not one of your comparisons appears valid. Similarities between Demise and Malladus? Malladus is effectively descended from Demise, of course they'd be similar. But only one of your comparisons remains valid anyway. The yellow eyes are the only similarity. Neither Demise nor Malladus had horns and Malladus didn't have red hair. Cole did, Malladus got them during the possession which was fleeting and ineffectual. In addition in terms of mentality Demise was eloquent and intelligent while Malladus was essentially Leeroy Jenkins.

Wait...isn't this Malladus?



Zelda Wiki says so. Surely he bears similarities to Demise?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

The swords are similar only in terms of colour, nothing else is comparable.

I don't know, they look pretty similar... (shape of handle, jewel on the hilt, etc.) I'm sure Nintendo intended for the Lokomo Sword to bear some resemblance to the Master Sword.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

The map doesn't add up, no matter how you rationalize it. You can't flip it, let alone half of it.

Yeah, it made sense when I came up with the idea, but I soon realised that the Forest/Fire/Ocean Realms were all messed up...I failed on that part.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

So in Skyward Sword, when Link made a wish on the Triforce, it ascended to the Sacred Realm? Then it must have been touched by Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time, and then split, and then reunited in Wind Waker. Nobody knows what happened to it after Wind Waker, so anything's possible, right?

Well you've got a point about SS, it never disappeared anywhere so Link and Zelda must have moved it to the Sacred Realm themselves.
However I'm certain that it was never destroyed, not once after any of its wishes has it ceased to be. There's no reason for it just vanishing.

Okay, so maybe the Goddesses didn't descend again..but I'm sure Hylia vs Demise could have taken place after Spirit Tracks.

So Zelda somehow became Hylia, after she herself says she sacrificed her godhood, in order to protect an item stuck in an alternate realm, whose only entry points are surely on the bottom of the sea, from a demon that was just killed who changed form completely then is stated to be the origin of all monsters, at a point when monsters are plentiful and he certainly isn't responsible for all of them. I'm going to stick with a firm no.

Wait...isn't this Malladus?



Zelda Wiki says so. Surely he bears similarities to Demise?

It's generally for the best that you see for yourself events of a game, rather than rely upon descriptions alone. Yes, that is Malladus after he has possessed Cole. The only unaltered form of Malladus we see is an enormous blue skull with yellow eyes, in the backstory he is only depicted as a mass of black smoke with eyes. There's little to compare between these two forms and Demise.
But you should know Demise is said to look different to each person that meets him and changes appearance each epoch. With that in mind comparison of personality is a better option... But they're still too different in that regard too.

I don't know, they look pretty similar... (shape of handle, jewel on the hilt, etc.) I'm sure Nintendo intended for the Lokomo Sword to bear some resemblance to the Master Sword.

So you're saying that the swords are similar mainly because they're swords? Look again, the handles are completely different, the jewels are different shapes and colours, the hilts are different shapes and sizes and the blades themselves have different designs.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Well you've got a point about SS, it never disappeared anywhere so Link and Zelda must have moved it to the Sacred Realm themselves.
However I'm certain that it was never destroyed, not once after any of its wishes has it ceased to be. There's no reason for it just vanishing.

I don't think it just vanished, I think that, after the flooding of Old Hyrule, it waited in the Sacred Realm to be discovered....that i presuming that the Hero of Winds left all the 'parts that made him a hero' behind after Wind Waker...maybe the Hero of Spirits is even destined to be the next holder of the Triforce? (*hoping for a Spirit Tracks sequel*

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

So Zelda somehow became Hylia, after she herself says she sacrificed her godhood, in order to protect an item stuck in an alternate realm, whose only entry points are surely on the bottom of the sea, from a demon that was just killed who changed form completely then is stated to be the origin of all monsters, at a point when monsters are plentiful and he certainly isn't responsible for all of them. I'm going to stick with a firm no.

No, I'm saying that Spirit Tracks Zelda died but the Royal bloodline continued all the way to Skyloft. Notice how even though Zelda is an incarnation of Hylia, she is still Gaepora's daughter. What I'm saying is, maybe Gaeopra could be Spirit Tracks Zelda's great grandson or something...

Also, maybe the Lokomo sword was hidden in the Tower of Spirits, which would eventually be raised to the Sky and become the Goddess Statue. It seems plausible since the Tower of Spirits lies in the centre of New Hyrule, as does the Sealed Temple.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

It's generally for the best that you see for yourself events of a game, rather than rely upon descriptions alone. Yes, that is Malladus after he has possessed Cole. The only unaltered form of Malladus we see is an enormous blue skull with yellow eyes, in the backstory he is only depicted as a mass of black smoke with eyes. There's little to compare between these two forms and Demise.
But you should know Demise is said to look different to each person that meets him and changes appearance each epoch. With that in mind comparison of personality is a better option... But they're still too different in that regard too.

Like you said yourself, Demise is an incarnation of fear and hatred who changes form. If he is an eternal being, why can't his spirit live on and become Malladus?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

So you're saying that the swords are similar mainly because they're swords? Look again, the handles are completely different, the jewels are different shapes and colours, the hilts are different shapes and sizes and the blades themselves have different designs.

I was just saying that, compared to other swords, they are similar. Look:



The Lokomo Sword looks nothing like any of the swords above. Nintendo could have picked any design, yet they chose the a similar design to the Master Sword, hence the jewel on the hilt and the shape of the handles (which are both blue). I like this piece of evidence, and it's my strongest so far.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

I don't think it just vanished, I think that, after the flooding of Old Hyrule, it waited in the Sacred Realm to be discovered....that i presuming that the Hero of Winds left all the 'parts that made him a hero' behind after Wind Waker...maybe the Hero of Spirits is even destined to be the next holder of the Triforce? (*hoping for a Spirit Tracks sequel*

The only entries to the Triforce are on the sunken Kingdom. Even assuming that a Link could get it you're saying the New Hyrule becomes a 'Classic Hyrule', but hold on a tick. The Classic Hyrule will eventually be destroyed but at this point a new 'New Hyrule' will be waiting, to become a new 'Classic Hyrule' and repeat until the end of time. Don't you think it's stupid that there must always be a landmass, identical to the previous, to run away to and repeat the cycle? And the gods, in spite of immortality, are oblivious to the repetition and constantly create and destroy a kingdom. Ever heard the line 'turtles all the way down'?

No, I'm saying that Spirit Tracks Zelda died but the Royal bloodline continued all the way to Skyloft. Notice how even though Zelda is an incarnation of Hylia, she is still Gaepora's daughter. What I'm saying is, maybe Gaeopra could be Spirit Tracks Zelda's great grandson or something...

I wasn't trying to get at this. I'm saying Hylia gave up her godhood, how could she get it back?
Demise is the origin of monsters, they didn't exist until he broke free. How can he be the origin of monsters to a world full of them?

Also, maybe the Lokomo sword was hidden in the Tower of Spirits, which would eventually be raised to the Sky and become the Goddess Statue. It seems plausible since the Tower of Spirits lies in the centre of New Hyrule, as does the Sealed Temple.

Like you said yourself, Demise is an incarnation of fear and hatred who changes form. If he is an eternal being, why can't his spirit live on and become Malladus?

Demise died, his hatred lives on. Malladus died, there was no implication that he would come back.
The hatred of Demise may reincarnate but the conclusion of Skyward sword was that Demise himself can't return.
You're suggesting that the hatred becomes the whole during a point in time when no monsters existed, but every other matter has reset to the beginning of time.

I was just saying that, compared to other swords, they are similar. Look:



The Lokomo Sword looks nothing like any of the swords above. Nintendo could have picked any design, yet they chose the a similar design to the Master Sword, hence the jewel on the hilt and the shape of the handles (which are both blue). I like this piece of evidence, and it's my strongest so far.

Sure, the shapes and colours are the same. Still the contrasts outweigh the similarities, the Locomo sword hilt is the same as the Locomo symbol. The Goddess sword hilt is featureless, the jewels aren't the same, the handle and pommel differ. You might as well say that Hylia broke it down and reformed it, but liked the colour scheme.

Why are you even bothering to suggest this happens on the Adult line? It might as well happen on the other two.

Linear time is such a western invention.

here is a problem, the split timeline has been confirmed so this would have to happen to all the timelines, also it would cause nentendo to run out of zelda games faster so both financially and fictional realilisticly it is unlikely.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

The only entries to the Triforce are on the sunken Kingdom. Even assuming that a Link could get it you're saying the New Hyrule becomes a 'Classic Hyrule', but hold on a tick. The Classic Hyrule will eventually be destroyed but at this point a new 'New Hyrule' will be waiting, to become a new 'Classic Hyrule' and repeat until the end of time. Don't you think it's stupid that there must always be a landmass, identical to the previous, to run away to and repeat the cycle? And the gods, in spite of immortality, are oblivious to the repetition and constantly create and destroy a kingdom. Ever heard the line 'turtles all the way down'?

Of course they wouldn't be oblivious. Have you not heard of the Hindu belief of Brahman? Long story short, it is a God made of three forms: creation, preservation and destruction. Hindus believe that the universe is an endless cycle. Eventually, the world will be destroyed, then reborn again, and again, and again. Wouldn't it be great if Nintendo were inspired by this belief?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

I wasn't trying to get at this. I'm saying Hylia gave up her godhood, how could she get it back?
Demise is the origin of monsters, they didn't exist until he broke free. How can he be the origin of monsters to a world full of them?

When was it stated that Demise was the origin of monsters? He was the incarnation of hatred, but maybe Ghirahim created the monsters in Skyward Sword? Anyway, Malladus was certainly responsible for the invasion in Spirit Tracks.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Demise died, his hatred lives on. Malladus died, there was no implication that he would come back.
The hatred of Demise may reincarnate but the conclusion of Skyward sword was that Demise himself can't return.
You're suggesting that the hatred becomes the whole during a point in time when no monsters existed, but every other matter has reset to the beginning of time.

I don't really understand what you're saying, but I believe that Demise only returns as Malladus, and then the cycle is reborn. I mean, no one really knows where the Imprisoned was actually imprisoned. He could have been sent to the void between realms, or even the Twilight Realm. But either way, what is there is an entrance to this void in New Hyrule? Malladus is an ancient demon, just like Demise, and his has been imprisoned prior to Spirit Tracks...who knows?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Sure, the shapes and colours are the same. Still the contrasts outweigh the similarities, the Locomo sword hilt is the same as the Locomo symbol. The Goddess sword hilt is featureless, the jewels aren't the same, the handle and pommel differ. You might as well say that Hylia broke it down and reformed it, but liked the colour scheme.

Well, we could argue about the sword day and night. Yes, they are different, but things change over time, as do Nintendo's choice of graphical design. Let's move on.

Originally Posted by oliverstorm

here is a problem, the split timeline has been confirmed so this would have to happen to all the timelines, also it would cause nentendo to run out of zelda games faster so both financially and fictional realilisticly it is unlikely.

This doesn't have to happen to all the timelines, just the one ending with Spirit Tracks. Besides, Nintendo could fill up any single part of the timeline, even create new ones, so there will never be a financial issue with my theory.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

Of course they wouldn't be oblivious. Have you not heard of the Hindu belief of Brahman? Long story short, it is a God made of three forms: creation, preservation and destruction. Hindus believe that the universe is an endless cycle. Eventually, the world will be destroyed, then reborn again, and again, and again. Wouldn't it be great if Nintendo were inspired by this belief?

I don't agree that it would be a worthwhile existence, especially since the moral of Wind Waker was let go of the past and embrace open possibilities. Considering the last wish on the Troforce was for Hyrule to be gone forever this seems to be both a slap in the face of Daphnes and impossible, because the goddesses themselves don't have the power of the Triforce so they couldn't over turn it. They probably can't even destroy it.

When was it stated that Demise was the origin of monsters?

By Fi in her scan.

He was the incarnation of hatred, but maybe Ghirahim created the monsters in Skyward Sword?

I don't recall him being called an incarnation of hatred, rather his hatred incarnates. Demise created Ghirahim and other monsters, Ghirahim and these monsters begot further monsters and now monsters are a staple of life.
My point is monsters and demons didn't exist until Demise broke forth.

Anyway, Malladus was certainly responsible for the invasion in Spirit Tracks.

He was in charge of it sure but he's nothing more than another of Demises creations. He's more powerful than most demons but not an equal or a replacement.

I don't really understand what you're saying, but I believe that Demise only returns as Malladus, and then the cycle is reborn. I mean, no one really knows where the Imprisoned was actually imprisoned. He could have been sent to the void between realms, or even the Twilight Realm.

The Imprisoned was utterly destroyed at the end of Skyward Sword. Again by the Triforce, it's not coming back. Only the hatred remains as a seperate entity, it curses Link and Zelda but it couldn't become Demise.
And it doesn't matter if this void exists or not, Malladus is dead not sealed away.

This doesn't have to happen to all the timelines, just the one ending with Spirit Tracks. Besides, Nintendo could fill up any single part of the timeline, even create new ones, so there will never be a financial issue with my theory.

Heh, well that wasn't what I meant. I mean what makes Spirit Tracks so special? The Locomo, Malladus, the Sword and such presumably exist in the other timelines, why is the world reborn here and not in the others?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

I don't agree that it would be a worthwhile existence, especially since the moral of Wind Waker was let go of the past and embrace open possibilities. Considering the last wish on the Troforce was for Hyrule to be gone forever this seems to be both a slap in the face of Daphnes and impossible, because the goddesses themselves don't have the power of the Triforce so they couldn't over turn it.

I suppose the moral of Wind Waker was 'scattering the seeds of the future', but it also illustrated the destruction of Hyrule. Then, Spirit Tracks showed the rebirth of Hyrule...so surelt that's a cycle in itself?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

By Fi in her scan.

Okay, I'm defeated on that point.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

I don't recall him being called an incarnation of hatred, rather his hatred incarnates. Demise created Ghirahim and other monsters, Ghirahim and these monsters begot further monsters and now monsters are a staple of life.

Sounds like monster breeding to me. Well, all the monsters in Old Hyrule were drowned, but the monsters in New Hyrule were created by Malladus...there's no other explanation. So since Demise and Malladus were both responsible for polluting a land with evil, is this not a similarity?

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

The Imprisoned was utterly destroyed at the end of Skyward Sword. Again by the Triforce, it's not coming back. Only the hatred remains as a seperate entity, it curses Link and Zelda but it couldn't become Demise.
And it doesn't matter if this void exists or not, Malladus is dead not sealed away.

When we thought Ganondorf was dead, he returned...twice. I'm sure Nintendo could find a way to bring back Demise...or maybe Malladus is Demise, which I've been saying all along.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

Heh, well that wasn't what I meant. I mean what makes Spirit Tracks so special? The Locomo, Malladus, the Sword and such presumably exist in the other timelines, why is the world reborn here and not in the others?

I think Malladus bears more resemblance to Demise in appearance and behaviour than any other main antagonists in the series. (Majora, Bellum, Ganondorf, Agahnim, Veran, Vaati.) That's why Spirit Tracks seems a more likely option.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

I suppose the moral of Wind Waker was 'scattering the seeds of the future', but it also illustrated the destruction of Hyrule. Then, Spirit Tracks showed the rebirth of Hyrule...so surelt that's a cycle in itself?

I think you're missing the point, Hyrule wasn't reborn. Its name was just used to honour the memory of the former.
It's not really a cycle when the key causes of the conflict were lost or sealed away. At least, it will never happen in exactly the same way.

Sounds like monster breeding to me.

He's the grand daddy of evil! And the great uncle of misfortune!

Well, all the monsters in Old Hyrule were drowned,

No they weren't. There are plenty on the islands or in the sea.

[quote]but the monsters in New Hyrule were created by Malladus...there's no other explanation. So since Demise and Malladus were both responsible for polluting a land with evil, is this not a similarity?[quote]

Malladus was never described to have created his army, he just became their king. And since monsters spread throughout the world New Hyrule was just a land that fell victim to some hordes of them.

When we thought Ganondorf was dead, he returned...twice. I'm sure Nintendo could find a way to bring back Demise...or maybe Malladus is Demise, which I've been saying all along.

Fair enough, I'm just taking someone being eradicated, completely, by the ultimate power to be deader than dead. Unless given reason to believe otherwise that should mean he can't reincarnate.

I think Malladus bears more resemblance to Demise in appearance and behaviour than any other main antagonists in the series. (Majora, Bellum, Ganondorf, Agahnim, Veran, Vaati.) That's why Spirit Tracks seems a more likely option.

But he isn't similar in appearance or behaviour. Demise looks nothing like Malladus or any villain except Ganondorf. And his articulate and respectful manner is certainly not like Malladus.

Finally they're nothing alike in terms of power, Malladus was completely revived during the possessed Zelda battle and wasn't anything special. Demise at full strength had to be put down by a goddess and still came back until the Triforce was used.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

I think you're missing the point, Hyrule wasn't reborn. Its name was just used to honour the memory of the former.
It's not really a cycle when the key causes of the conflict were lost or sealed away. At least, it will never happen in exactly the same way.

But New Hyrule is still ruled over by the same monarchy, and has the same hero. Also, the Lokomos are said to be the reincarnations of the six sages, as the Lokomo Sword is the Master Sword. (Let's not start that again.)

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

No they weren't. There are plenty on the islands or in the sea.

But we they not originally from Hyrule? That's why Ganondorf used that portal of darkness to bring them up to the Great Sea.

Originally Posted by Magic-Tech

But he isn't similar in appearance or behaviour. Demise looks nothing like Malladus or any villain except Ganondorf. And his articulate and respectful manner is certainly not like Malladus.

Finally they're nothing alike in terms of power, Malladus was completely revived during the possessed Zelda battle and wasn't anything special. Demise at full strength had to be put down by a goddess and still came back until the Triforce was used.

It seems you have contradicted yourself. Both Demise and Malladus needed the body of the Princess/Goddess Zelda to be fully revived. They have both broken the seals placed on them. And they both have specific servants, from Ghirahim to Cole. I'd say they're still pretty similar in terms of power/ability.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

But New Hyrule is still ruled over by the same monarchy, and has the same hero. Also, the Lokomos are said to be the reincarnations of the six sages, as the Lokomo Sword is the Master Sword. (Let's not start that again.)

Ah, who says that?

It seems you have contradicted yourself. Both Demise and Malladus needed the body of the Princess/Goddess Zelda to be fully revived. They have both broken the seals placed on them. And they both have specific servants, from Ghirahim to Cole. I'd say they're still pretty similar in terms of power/ability.

Actually, Demise needed her soul.

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

Ah, who says that?

Zeldapedia, of course.

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

Actually, Demise needed her soul.

So Malladus needed her body, while Demise needed her soul? Well, I suppose they both needed a part of the Goddess reincarnate.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

Zeldapedia, of course.

Yeah but the game itself makes no mention or even a hint of them being reincarnations.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

So Malladus needed her body, while Demise needed her soul? Well, I suppose they both needed a part of the Goddess reincarnate.

Well I thought it was obvious-- Zelda's divine lineage is the reason both Malladus and Demise needed her.

Originally Posted by Celestria

Yeah but the game itself makes no mention or even a hint of them being reincarnations.

Yes, there are seven Lokomos and seven Ancient Sages, they each have their corresponding elements and they're all responsible for the Lokomo Sword and the imprisonment of Malladus. How is that not the same?

Originally Posted by Celestria

Well I thought it was obvious-- Zelda's divine lineage is the reason both Malladus and Demise needed her.

But Ganondorf needed Zelda because of the Triforce of Wisdom, whereas Malladus and Demise each needed a part of the Goddess, which makes them similar.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

Yes, there are seven Lokomos and seven Ancient Sages, they each have their corresponding elements and they're all responsible for the Lokomo Sword and the imprisonment of Malladus. How is that not the same?

So if there's ever a group of 7, each corresponding to a certain element, and they create a sword and seal someone away, they MUST be reincarnations of each other no matter what?

I think you're ignoring the obvious here. Hyrule's history is continually repeating, likely as a cause of Demise's curse. An evil being is sealed by a group of sage-like characters, only to later be resurrected and cause havoc before a hero appears with a magic sword and saves the day. Each time there are various elements that appear similar and, at times, almost identical, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone and everything that take part in these events are reincarnations of each other.

Besides, we're not even sure when exactly Malladus was sealed. For all we know it could've happened thousands of years prior to ST and during the OoT era, in which case there would be two reincarnations of the Ancient Sages existing at the same time.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

But Ganondorf needed Zelda because of the Triforce of Wisdom, whereas Malladus and Demise each needed a part of the Goddess, which makes them similar.

?
I'm not talking about Ganondorf needing the Triforce-- just the reason Malladus and Demise needed Zelda's body/soul specifically.

Originally Posted by Celestria

So if there's ever a group of 7, each corresponding to a certain element, and they create a sword and seal someone away, they MUST be reincarnations of each other no matter what?

Erm, yes. That's what Nintendo were trying to imply. You've even explained it yourself so I don't have to.

Originally Posted by Celestria

I think you're ignoring the obvious here. Hyrule's history is continually repeating, likely as a cause of Demise's curse. An evil being is sealed by a group of sage-like characters, only to later be resurrected and cause havoc before a hero appears with a magic sword and saves the day. Each time there are various elements that appear similar and, at times, almost identical, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone and everything that take part in these events are reincarnations of each other.

Seriously? You think that it's just a coincidence that there are seven Lokomos who guard a sword and each element of Hyrule? Of course they're supposed to be the same!

If it's the whole 'reincarnation' thing that's bothering you, look at how Link is reincarnated in every Zelda game, as well as Zelda herself! These were all parts of Demise's curse, as you said, which he placed on Skyward Sword's Link & Zelda, so that their descendants/incarnates must face a new evil every time.

Originally Posted by Celestria

Besides, we're not even sure when exactly Malladus was sealed. For all we know it could've happened thousands of years prior to ST and during the OoT era, in which case there would be two reincarnations of the Ancient Sages existing at the same time.

Okay, so maybe we don't know when he was sealed, but it is very unlikely Hyrule would need two sets of Sages. Remember that the Ancient Sages of Twilight Princess were implied to be the same of Ocarina of Time's Sages, just on a different timeline.

Also, read here. I think that the Sages are also supposed to be the 'Spirits of Good', and that is why they are always reincarnated. Though I don't really know much about the Spirits of Good as a topic.

Originally Posted by Ningan the Lone Ninja

But New Hyrule is still ruled over by the same monarchy, and has the same hero. Also, the Lokomos are said to be the reincarnations of the six sages, as the Lokomo Sword is the Master Sword. (Let's not start that again.)

Whoa there, nobody established that the Locomo were the same as the Seven Sages. They're similar but that doesn't mean they're one and the same.

But we they not originally from Hyrule? That's why Ganondorf used that portal of darkness to bring them up to the Great Sea.

Nobody ever said Ganondorf brought them up. It was only Hyrule that was sunk, they'd have spread to other countries before Wind Waker.

It seems you have contradicted yourself. Both Demise and Malladus needed the body of the Princess/Goddess Zelda to be fully revived. They have both broken the seals placed on them. And they both have specific servants, from Ghirahim to Cole. I'd say they're still pretty similar in terms of power/ability.

One needed the soul, the other the body. One was breaking free by himself, the other needed the help of a traitor. One was still not at full power when fought, the other was and had back up but still was beaten.

Malladus is far weaker than Demise. And any comparison made isn't that strong because Malladus is descended from Demise, they're bound to be similar. They're family.

Erm, yes. That's what Nintendo were trying to imply. You've even explained it yourself so I don't have to.

Never heard of a tired idea?

If it's the whole 'reincarnation' thing that's bothering you, look at how Link is reincarnated in every Zelda game, as well as Zelda herself! These were all parts of Demise's curse, as you said, which he placed on Skyward Sword's Link & Zelda, so that their descendants/incarnates must face a new evil every time.

But the Sages were not included in his curse.

Okay, so maybe we don't know when he was sealed, but it is very unlikely Hyrule would need two sets of Sages. Remember that the Ancient Sages of Twilight Princess were implied to be the same of Ocarina of Time's Sages, just on a different timeline.

The land spirit tracks was set in was not part of Hyrule, why would another continent not need another set of protectors?