Post-Timeline Theorizing

I think the process is more like this:

1. Start with gameplay
2. get a general idea of where you want it to be on the timeline
3. add the story
4. choose exact location on timeline

Originally Posted by Temple of Time Guardian

I think the process is more like this:

1. Start with gameplay
2. get a general idea of where you want it to be on the timeline
3. add the story
4. choose exact location on timeline

Isn't this sorta how TP and FSA went through development? Based on developer quotes, anyway.

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

I'm of the opinion that Aonuma was bluffing about the confidential master document, really. Why would he say that only three people have access to it at any given time and then turn around and release it less than a year later?

Because he realized that it was pointless keeping it secret any longer. Besides HH isn't the same thing as that document, but it is obviously based on it. There's probably a lot more that could have appeared in HH than was printed. Theres's also the point of keeping the material so secure to avoid leaks. Would HH had been successful if the internets had divulged the entire raw document? (maybe) But the authors still have a right and duty to protect their property in order to maximize profit.

But one also has to remember that fantasy video game designers 'lie' to their customers for a living..

Why would it be pointless? What changed in the months between the interview and the release of the Historia? Less, actually, considering the time needed to actually write the thing.

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

Why would it be pointless? What changed in the months between the interview and the release of the Historia? Less, actually, considering the time needed to actually write the thing.

Maybe the interview quote was to show how exclusive this information was and, therefore, when the fans finally get HH they would feel privy to what was only recently shared among the few.

Or we are just misunderstanding the actual quote, which was meant to convey the idea that the timeline was important and that there was a document that the main designers of the series used to sketch out an internal history of Hyrule, and that up to the point in time that the interview was given that only Miyamoto, Anouma and who ever happened to be the director of what ever current in process game to be released because no one else had a 'need to know'.

And perhaps someone, in the months between interview and HH release, reminded Anouma that they are in the business of making money, and that throwing the fans a juicy bone like the 'official' timeline presented in a fancy package would rake in the cash.

Or they are lying liars that tell lies. And they don't give a crap about nonjapanese fans. I'm kinda tired of defending these guys. Who ever wants to ignore HH and create a more 'authentic' or logical timeline, go right ahead, I ain't stoppin ya.

Originally Posted by GrimmyV

Or they are lying liars that tell lies. And they don't give a crap about nonjapanese fans. I'm kinda tired of defending these guys. Who ever wants to ignore HH and create a more 'authentic' or logical timeline, go right ahead, I ain't stoppin ya.

SS - LoZ - AoL - MC - OoT:

AT: WW - PH - ST
CT: MM - TP - FS - FSA - ALttP - OoX - LA

You lost me after putting LoZ and AoL before OoT.

I think that those who don't accept the HH timeline as canon are still in denial.. Why would Nintendo release a timeline if it has zero canonical value? Apparently they decided to release it to make things more clear:

Originally Posted by Aonuma

Chapter 2, “The Full History of Hyrule,” arranges the series in
chronological order so it’s easier to understand, but from the very
beginning, Zelda games have been developed with the top priority of
focusing on the game mechanics rather than the story.

Also it says that although history changes, it is not largely shaken:

Originally Posted by Hyrule Historia

Because what is being spun is the flow of history right up until the end of time, we wish for you to touch true adventure with your own hands and try to ascertain it for yourself.

Originally Posted by Hyrule Historia

This chronology is not limited to information that is currently confirmable. It also contains much that is unclear. The history of Hyrule is known to change with the times and the person telling it, and will continue to unfold. Even if none of the important points waver by much, new legends will continue to be born and history may yet be rewritten.

Also important is the fact that the narration is done by Hyruleans. This line is in bold in the book:

Originally Posted by Hyrule Historia

…This is a tale that was passed down by humans such as yourselves…

.. which means of course that every branch exists. You can't have a DT/CT/AT narrator without the respective branch existing.

My understanding is that HH contains (or may contain) an inaccurate historical account, so certainly there is a lot of room for interpretation, but I don't think it extends to the order of the games. Given that the games are usually set centuries or thousands of years apart, how does the true order they occur change over time? At the very least it doesn't seem a realistic possibility.

When you really take a good look at the timeline, everything really does make perfect sense. I honestly think that the only major changes we would ever see are:
a. the addition of new games
b. a possible movement of the Four Swords trilogy (which is unlikely in my opinion)

I agree that there is room for shifts, but heavy analysis of the timeline would make significant changes seem inappropriate. The addition of the Downfall timeline was a great clarification. When you also take into account the games out at the end of the N64 era, it's the only thing that would explain why Ganondorf became Ganon and was sealed in the Sacred Realm for ALttP. OoT had obviously made to become a ALttP prequel, and everything else was made to be added onto that.

@ zeldafan1982 - It's worth noting that the quote you bolded from HH starts off by saying "even if", which means that Nintendo have given themselves room to change things as much as they want, though they don't anticipate things changing too much (though they apparently do anticipate the possibility of important points changing to some extent before all is said and done).

As for your argument about the narrator, remember that if this was an in-universe explanation, no mortal would know about any split. The only way any of the splits can be known is by an entity that is outside of time. (Actually, it is possible for a mortal to learn of any of the splits, but that is only possible if (ignoring potential revelation from a deity, of course, since that's already been covered) the person exists after the split, travels back in time to before the split, and then survives long enough to experience the split and ends up in a timeline different from their own. Of course this isn't logically possible, as the only way the splits actually work is if every timeline exists parallel to one another with identical events happening before the supposed splits rather than the three timelines actually being connected with one another at one point. If the timelines literally were connected at the past, it would mean that either the downfall timeline or both the child and adult timelines never happened; they're just a what-if possibility that never actually came to pass. And assuming that the downfall timeline is the one that didn't actually happen, Zelda sending Link back to the past should have erased the adult timeline unless she sent him into a completely different timeline/parallel universe that didn't share a past with that of the adult timeline (despite potentially having a past identical to the past of the adult timeline). So again, the only way for all three timelines to have actually happened is for them to be three parallel timelines that were never conjoined in the past, and if that is the case, a mortal could only learn about the "splits" by somehow visiting all of the parallel universes both before and after the events of change within their respective timelines.) So all of this seems to imply that the humans HH is mentioning are the players and/or the creators of the games. Not the people of Hyrule, but the people of Earth.

I'm not saying that the narrator is only one. There have to be at least three of them. The developers break the fourth wall and bring their accounts to us.

Originally Posted by Volvagia_slayer

If the timelines literally were connected at the past, it would mean that either the downfall timeline or both the child and adult timelines never happened; they're just a what-if possibility that never actually came to pass.

They don't have to be mutually exclusive. The universe (especially a fictional one!) can branch by itself as in the many-worlds interpretation which has been exploited in fiction before. Nayru may have designed the universe to work that way. It is unfortunate that most fans take as a given that parallel timelines can occur only through time-travel :/

Here's a hilarious take:

Originally Posted by zeldafan1982

I think that those who don't accept the HH timeline as canon are still in denial..

Who is saying the Historia isn't canon? Certainly not me. My problem is plot-induced stupidity, which doesn't affect canonicity at all.

Originally Posted by zeldafan1982

Also important is the fact that the narration is done by Hyruleans. This line is in bold in the book:

.. which means of course that every branch exists. You can't have a DT/CT/AT narrator without the respective branch existing.

My understanding is that HH contains (or may contain) an inaccurate historical account, so certainly there is a lot of room for interpretation, but I don't think it extends to the order of the games. Given that the games are usually set centuries or thousands of years apart, how does the true order they occur change over time? At the very least it doesn't seem a realistic possibility.

I concur with this idea in supporting the validity of the three branches. While I doubt any would willingly rally to the concept, I think it makes by-and-large a fair amount of sense for the 'failure' timeline that most consider a 'what-if' to be more in line to, well: Hyrule Prime, the 'original' story.

Take into account that all of the pre-Ocarina games are put in the exact way we had always assumed the timeline was to go. At the very least, this is a nod to the origin of the series and could easily be handwaved by a simple 'A time-traveling wizard fixed/broke it' in regards to negating the loss that caused it, making the splits.

My personal theory is that during the Master-swordless portion of the Ganon fight, Link was defeated and a gloating Ganon took his Life and triforce piece. While this was happening a frantic Zelda called the Sages to make an imperfect Seal while Ganon claimed hers as well, leaving her on the floating island as an enraged Ganon was forced into the Sacred Realm and trapped, leaving him with the full triforce, but unable to leave.

That Zelda would ultimately reunite the people of Hyrule and return the Master Sword, leaving the main entrance/exit closed, but leaving a still cunning Ganon to build his armies and bring his surrogate Mothers back, allowing them to bring him back as insurance should he ever come that close to death again.

And there I go, rambling...

I'd say most of the above would sound about right.

My personal theory for why the timeline recieved harsh initial opposition is basically nostalgia. HH puts the DT games, the one many fans grew up with, into a timeline that doesn't even occur in normal gameplay: all their beloved old games shoved into an 'other' timeline.

Originally Posted by Temple of Time Guardian

I'd say most of the above would sound about right.

My personal theory for why the timeline recieved harsh initial opposition is basically nostalgia. HH puts the DT games, the one many fans grew up with, into a timeline that doesn't even occur in normal gameplay: all their beloved old games shoved into an 'other' timeline.

Well, that was my line of thinking. The way the series has been working, we've been unconsciously going back and influencing the fate of Hyrule.

Basically (while hoping to not sound like a total basket case), when we took command of the hero of time, we fixed what had seemingly gone wrong with the history of Hyrule, and in so doing made the initial split.

When we got the Oracle games, which were originally meant to be remakes/updated versions of the original story (LOZ-AOL), they were added to the Decli- Okay, honestly, I'm just going to refer to that as Hyrule Prime, okay?

Anyway, we had a post Ocarina game added to Hyrule Prime. While most would see that as a mere 'garbage-tossing', I'd prefer to see it as showing that the timeline is not dead. Ganon may have won in that version, but it didn't just end. It's still going.

Besides, we already know a certain Oracle has, willingly or not, dabbled with time's flow before...

The whole idea that the Sages were able to seal Ganon once he has the True Force says terrible things about them, though. If they could match Ganon in a contest of magic long enough to banish him, then why didn't they just pin him down while the Hero of Time was still able to fight? Without the True Force, Ganondorf would be weaker than Ganon, and thus could be overpowered outright rather than merely stalled, so that the Hero of Time can hack away at his leisure. Y'know, like how Zelda managed in OoT after Ganon had already gotten beaten down some. Sending the Hero of Time in alone when they have such an advantage is seriously messed up. It'd be like sending out a lvl 5 Magikarp to tackle a Pikachu, when you've got a lvl 100 Sandshrew ready to go.

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

The whole idea that the Sages were able to seal Ganon once he has the True Force says terrible things about them, though. If they could match Ganon in a contest of magic long enough to banish him, then why didn't they just pin him down while the Hero of Time was still able to fight? Without the True Force, Ganondorf would be weaker than Ganon, and thus could be overpowered outright rather than merely stalled, so that the Hero of Time can hack away at his leisure. Y'know, like how Zelda managed in OoT after Ganon had already gotten beaten down some. Sending the Hero of Time in alone when they have such an advantage is seriously messed up. It'd be like sending out a lvl 5 Magikarp to tackle a Pikachu, when you've got a lvl 100 Sandshrew ready to go.

I believe they needed Zelda, who unfortunately got trapped in the crystal. The plan was for Link to protect Zelda while she and the Sages prepared the seal to imprison him in the Sacred Realm. With Zelda trapped in the crystal, they couldn't do their part.

Here's what I believe happened (contains fanfic):

1. Link and Ganondorf have an epic battle, Ganondorf is worn out, but narrowly wins.

2. Ganondorf takes the ToC from Link and frees Zelda from her crystal, taking hers.

3. The Sages appear in defense of Zelda, sacrificing their lives to serve as a distraction to Ganondorf

4. Zelda retrieves the Light Arrows from Link's lifeless body, and uses them to further wear down Ganon, who is distracted by the Sages

5. Zelda and the Sages prepare the seal, and imprison Ganondorf, who was stunned by the Light Arrows, into the Sacred Realm.

That's not what I'm getting at, though. Needing Zelda to perform the actual sealing is fine, but they don't need Zelda just to beat down Ganondorf. Hell, Zelda isn't even freed from the crystal until after Ganondorf is initially beaten. It's one thing if, as in TP, the Sages are completely incapable of matching Ganondorf and would only throw away their lives if they tried. But that's not the case here, because they were able to drive back Ganon, even if just momentarily. Since by definition Ganondorf with "merely" Power isn't on the same level as Ganon when empowered by the True Force, Sages who are capable of matching Ganon should have no trouble with Ganondorf, especially since the Hero of Time would still be there to take the brunt of Ganondorf's attacks while they themselves provide fire support from relative safety.

To draw an example from FF Tactics, if your party consists of a soldier and a bunch of mages, the mages aren't going to just sit around while the soldier does all the fighting. They're going to be invoking status effects, restoring HP, or trying to damage targets directly with magic. But the Historia implies that the mages do just sit there, and then panic once the soldier inevitably gets himself killed.

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

That's not what I'm getting at, though. Needing Zelda to perform the actual sealing is fine, but they don't need Zelda just to beat down Ganondorf.

I wish I could offer facts, but all I have is my theory (sprinkled with a little imagination)... anyways... Just my personal opinion here, but I don't really think that they have that much power. They were not actually fighters, the only thing they were good for was making and breaking seals. That's why I feel Zelda is necessary, because she does actually have some skill; at the least, she could have used the Light Arrows, which is something guaranteed to stun Ganondorf.

It's one thing if, as in TP, the Sages are completely incapable of matching Ganondorf and would only throw away their lives if they tried. But that's not the case here, because they were able to drive back Ganon, even if just momentarily.

Their purpose was to create a seal and presumably watch over it... With the exception of Impa and Nabooru, the Sages aren't warriors or fighters... they were just regular people that awakened as Sages, not formidable sorcerers and skilled fighters... your point about the Sages in TP kind of proves what happens when they try to take matters in their own hands.

Coming out prematurely to fight Ganondorf would have put them at risk... if they're dead, then how could Ganon be sealed?

Hell, Zelda isn't even freed from the crystal until after Ganondorf is initially beaten.

My theory says that Ganon had to free her first before he could take her triforce piece... so even if Link didn't cause the crystal to release her, Ganon would have done it himself. Of course, I can't actually prove this; it's just what I think could have happened.

Since by definition Ganondorf with "merely" Power isn't on the same level as Ganon when empowered by the True Force, Sages who are capable of matching Ganon should have no trouble with Ganondorf, especially since the Hero of Time would still be there to take the brunt of Ganondorf's attacks while they themselves provide fire support from relative safety.

I don't recall anything suggesting that having the full Triforce automatically makes him a better opponent. I mean, the full triforce grants him a wish, but it doesn't increase his strength by default. He'd still be the same guy, but with a free wish at his disposal.

To draw an example from FF Tactics, if your party consists of a soldier and a bunch of mages, the mages aren't going to just sit around while the soldier does all the fighting. They're going to be invoking status effects, restoring HP, or trying to damage targets directly with magic. But the Historia implies that the mages do just sit there, and then panic once the soldier inevitably gets himself killed.

Well, that is what they do.

We're forgetting that merely having the actual Triforce doesn't do much of anything, only when a wish is vocally made with the true force is any wish granted. The exception is when the three forces are separate, as we've seen the triforce pieces using their own power when bonded. (Remember the Ganondorf -Ganon transformation, and also the 'revival' of the Pre TP Ganon at his execution.)

At any rate, nothing is to say that Ganon/dorf wasn't distracted upon acquiring the True Force, like in Wind Waker. That would have given the sages the timing they'd need, also add in the fact their hero is presumably dead, and they're very desperate.

At that rate, the six other Sages could have sacrificed themselves to seal him in while Zelda sealed off the entrance with the Master Sword, ensuring the way stay blocked until the fabric begins to wear via the portals/tears.

Originally Posted by Phyrior

We're forgetting that merely having the actual Triforce doesn't do much of anything, only when a wish is vocally made with the true force is any wish granted. The exception is when the three forces are separate, as we've seen the triforce pieces using their own power when bonded. (Remember the Ganondorf -Ganon transformation, and also the 'revival' of the Pre TP Ganon at his execution.)

At any rate, nothing is to say that Ganon/dorf wasn't distracted upon acquiring the True Force, like in Wind Waker. That would have given the sages the timing they'd need, also add in the fact their hero is presumably dead, and they're very desperate.

At that rate, the six other Sages could have sacrificed themselves to seal him in while Zelda sealed off the entrance with the Master Sword, ensuring the way stay blocked until the fabric begins to wear via the portals/tears.

I was going to post this ^ but you beatme to it. Instead I will say that FSA should have 'replaced' OoT as the lead in for the DT timeline, with the point of divergence of the timelines being Ganon seeking either the TF or the Trident of Power. At least that way the FS games are together and we don't have to rely on an alternate ending of a game that already has too many alternate endings. Don't ask me why the timeline diverges, other than perhaps the dreams Zelda and Link have in OoT that set things in motions never occur in the FSA DT and never set of the chain of events leading to OoT. Or Link was never orphaned. There's far too many possibilities than just saying Link fails in a fight that we know he wins.