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  #81 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-02-2012, 03:22 PM
Stormkalv Stormkalv is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

That's a theory, as is mine of course, I guess we can never be sure unless there's something about it in Hyrule Historia or something.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:23 PM
keyaki keyaki is a male keyaki is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Sages, Goddesses, etc.
That doesn't answer my question of how the "Dark Interlopers" supposedly got into the Sacred Realm in the first place because I'm pretty sure the Sages, Goddesses, whoever would keep the door to the Sacred Realm locked airtight for ANYONE who would try to get in. Not even Ganondorf could get in.

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Fan speculation is that the proto-Twili were the ones who prompted the construction of the Temple of Time to begin with, in an attempt to prevent future conflict over who got to have the Triforce. Even if that were not the case, Midna treats Zant as a contemporary and not as an elder, so he's probably at most a generation older than her. At the same time, Midna refers to the original banished proto-Twili as their "ancestors," implicitly excluding Zant from their number. People generally don't refer to their parents or grandparents as "ancestors," so that is at least three generations of separation between herself and the original proto-Twili, and at least two between Zant and the proto-Twili. All of which means that by the time the True Force split apart and Ganondorf found Zant, the Twili would already have been in the Sacred Realm for years, with the True Force.
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The problem is that the Twili were locked in the Twilight Realm before Ganondorf, TP Link, and TP Zelda were even born.
Exactly. The context given in TP gives the belief that both the Twilight Realm and Sacred Realm existed but they're both 2 different realms.


Quote:
You just solved you own problem. They probably didn't know that the Triforce wasn't there.
By that logic the Goddesses would know that the Triforce wasn't in the Sacred Realm, yet they still went to all the trouble to mobilize the Light Spirits and lock up the 'Dark Interlopers'.

That's like breaking into an empty vault and still getting arrested for it.
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  #83 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-02-2012, 06:28 PM
Devoid Devoid is a male United States Devoid is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

I'm not saying that my theory has to be absolutely true, that's why it's a theory. I had always thought that the Twilight Realm and the Sacred Realm were, at least in part, one in the same. And, isn't that the point of the Theorizing Section, to be proven or disproven?

Quote:
That doesn't answer my question of how the "Dark Interlopers" supposedly got into the Sacred Realm in the first place because I'm pretty sure the Sages, Goddesses, whoever would keep the door to the Sacred Realm locked airtight for ANYONE who would try to get in. Not even Ganondorf could get in.
Remember that the Dark Interlopers originally had the Fused Shadow and that, for sure, was a VERY dominating power. I mean, Midna 'killed' Zant using "only a peice of the power" of the Fused Shadow. Of course, in the end that power surcame to the Triforce of Power as well as the power of Ganondorf, but that only confirms that Ganondorf is, indeed, affiliated with Demise.

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The twilight that covered Hyrule is not the same as the Twilight Realm, though. The "twilight" that covered Hyrule was due to Ganondorf's power. Technically, any land that gets taken over by Ganon becomes a "dark world"... what we saw in Twilight Princess was an illustration of how that happens.

Furthermore, the Twilight Realm (the world behind the mirror) looks nothing like Hyrule.
Of course the "Official" Twilight Realm doesn't look like Hyrule, as, probably, neither did the untouched Sacred Realm ( of course, as a rebuttle, one could say that the Silent Realm/ Sacred Realm perfectly mirrored the surface world...)

The Twilight only covered Hyrule by the Light spirits being incapacitated. The only connection to Ganondorf in this sense is that his power tranformed the denizens of the Twilight Realm into the monsters that "Killed" the lights spirits. It's still the Twilight REALM because the ONLY thing holding the Twilight back was the Light Spirits.

Quote:
Of course, it's possible that the portals in SS only transported you into the "spiritual half" of the sacred realm, so to speak, which is called the silent realm
Well, there's an interesting idea! Maybe the Twili were only sealed in the physical portion of the Sacred Realm, meanwhile Ganondorf as well as the Triforce were located in the spirtual portion... of course, this only stands true before Ganondorf's execution attempt...

The mirror leads to the physical portion and the temple of time leads to the spiritual area...

This would explain perfectly why the "Official" Twilight Realm doesn't mirror the land of Hyrule, because it was the physical portion. Meanwhile, the Dark World and the Silent Realm are both the spiritual area...
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  #84 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-02-2012, 08:41 PM
StinksAwakening United States StinksAwakening is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by Devoid View Post

The Twilight only covered Hyrule by the Light spirits being incapacitated. The only connection to Ganondorf in this sense is that his power tranformed the denizens of the Twilight Realm into the monsters that "Killed" the lights spirits. It's still the Twilight REALM because the ONLY thing holding the Twilight back was the Light Spirits.

Wrong, the Light Spirits were incapacitated by Zant, who was using Ganon's power. Zant had no special power of his own, he was using Ganon's power.
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  #85 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-03-2012, 12:09 AM
keyaki keyaki is a male keyaki is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Remember that the Dark Interlopers originally had the Fused Shadow and that, for sure, was a VERY dominating power. I mean, Midna 'killed' Zant using "only a peice of the power" of the Fused Shadow. Of course, in the end that power surcame to the Triforce of Power as well as the power of Ganondorf, but that only confirms that Ganondorf is, indeed, affiliated with Demise.
We all know that Ganon is connected to Demise. He's Demise's hatred incarnate.

But on what basis does the Fused Shadows have of infiltrating the Sacred Realm? The so-called "powerful" Fused Shadow is ambiguous and since we know its weak compared to the Triforce, it can't be that powerful.

Besides, we know of only 2 ways that the way to the Sacred Realm can be opened by either the Sages or the Master Sword in the Temple of Time and by TP that method became obsolete. But the ways to enter the Sacred Realm have always seem to be benevolent, the Fused Shadows seem capable of doing anything like gaining entrance at all. Especially since we still don't have any evidence tot eh "Dark Interlopers" actually entering the realm.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:22 AM
Rakshael Rakshael is a male United States Rakshael is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by keyaki View Post
But on what basis does the Fused Shadows have of infiltrating the Sacred Realm? The so-called "powerful" Fused Shadow is ambiguous and since we know its weak compared to the Triforce, it can't be that powerful.
The fused shadow is more powerful than the Triforce of Wisdom: Midna was able to do far more than Zelda ever could, even in normal imp mode. Its power can't really be tested against that of Courage because its of a different nature, and it only lost to the infinite godlike energies of Power.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:26 AM
keyaki keyaki is a male keyaki is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by Rakshael View Post
The fused shadow is more powerful than the Triforce of Wisdom: Midna was able to do far more than Zelda ever could, even in normal imp mode. Its power can't really be tested against that of Courage because its of a different nature, and it only lost to the infinite godlike energies of Power.
The Triforce is part of the power of the Goddesses. How can simple dark magic from a band dark magic wielders be more powerful than the power of the gods? Exactly what did Midna do that made her better than Zelda in power? Especially since we've never seen Zelda use the power of the Triforce of Power at all.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:37 AM
Rakshael Rakshael is a male United States Rakshael is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

I don't think it was so simple. It was capable of overcoming Ganon's seal around Hyrule Castle, and fended off his floating head form a good amount of time. A single piece of it killed Zant, overcoming all of the Goddesses' Power in him. So she only fell against its full, raw state, from the piece that grants unparalleled and infinite power.

Zelda's never used Power. I'm going to assume you meant Wisdom. We aren't sure if Wisdom actually does anything at all. Zelda seems to have some magical ability, casting balls of light, flying, and a triforce trap. Any of these, and even her abilities in other games like Oot, could stem from her status as a Sage. In Oot she was so unwise she was responsible for Ganon's takeover in the first place, so Wisdom obviously didn't help her that much.

Courage might be just a fail-safe against Power, giving a hero such skills like instant mastery of any item, the heart pieces, true courage for facing horrible evil (not take mirror, anyone?), etc.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:46 AM
keyaki keyaki is a male keyaki is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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I don't think it was so simple. It was capable of overcoming Ganon's seal around Hyrule Castle, and fended off his floating head form a good amount of time. A single piece of it killed Zant, overcoming all of the Goddesses' Power in him.
We've never seen what happened when Midna went toe-to-toe with Ganondorf in that spirit form.

And I highly doubt whatever power Ganondorf gave Zant was any power from the Triforce of Power since you did just say that its weak compared to the Triforce of Power.

Quote:
Courage might be just a fail-safe against Power, giving a hero such skills like instant mastery of any item, the heart pieces, true courage for facing horrible evil (not take mirror, anyone?), etc.
I doubt that. Learning out to use a weapon or a tool of like the ones we've seen isn't really that hard to master, the heart pieces were just for game play ability, and Link had a strong level of courage within him from the get-go even before he got the Triforce of Courage.
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Old 05-03-2012, 12:59 AM
Rakshael Rakshael is a male United States Rakshael is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

ALL of Ganon's power emanates from his Triforce piece. Whatever he gave Zant absolutely had to come from the ToP. And yes, we saw Midna fight very briefly after she warped Zelda/Link to Hyrule Field. Then she got blown up. Ganon was only a Gerudo king before he touched the Triforce.


You think a random kid just learns to fight dragons, wolves, and stalfos within a month? That he just happens to become an instant bow master? That he can pick up a legendary sword and not three days later successfully plays dead man's volley with an evil wizard's phantom? I submit to you the ToC gives him that at the very least. Even though Link doesn't need it before he gets the ToC, he certainly does after. It's why he's sealed away for 7 years.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:07 AM
keyaki keyaki is a male keyaki is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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You think a random kid just learns to fight dragons, wolves, and stalfos within a month? That he just happens to become an instant bow master? That he can pick up a legendary sword and not three days later successfully plays dead man's volley with an evil wizard's phantom? I submit to you the ToC gives him that at the very least. Even though Link doesn't need it before he gets the ToC, he certainly does after. It's why he's sealed away for 7 years.

LOL he's been doing that for the first have of OoT AND WW.

A 12 year old kid killing a giant spider, fire-breathing dinosaur, giant parasitic aquatic amoeba, a giant one-eyed scorpion, an evil plant monster, and a giant masked bird all with nothing but the sword in his scabbard and always going in without any kind of protest. He didn't even bat an eye when the Great Deku Tree told him to go in there to kill Gohma and he had just woken up.

Hell even then Link didn't get the Triforce until right before he fights Ganondorf. So yea, I do think that.

And lets not forget other games where the Triforce isn't present at all like the FS trilogy and OoX.

And the only reason why Link was sealed away was because the Master Sword didn't see him age-fit to become the Hero of Time of yet. In WW, he was the same age yet had the Triforce of Courage and wasn't put into suspended animation.
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  #92 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-03-2012, 01:12 AM
Rakshael Rakshael is a male United States Rakshael is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

Well I don't want to sound like I'm copping out, I'd love to continue, but this is really off-topic, hehe.

I still think the fused shadow holds a candle to two-thirds of the Triforce, and requires a great deal of the last third to be destroyed. It's the pinacle of a race's magical knowledge and ability.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:33 AM
StinksAwakening United States StinksAwakening is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

To everyone saying that Zelda doesn't use the ToW, I just thought I'd point out that she does use it in TP. She uses it to discover the source of the curse that Zant put on Link, before she tells him to find the Master Sword.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:03 AM
Devoid Devoid is a male United States Devoid is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by TurkeyMcBean View Post
To everyone saying that Zelda doesn't use the ToW, I just thought I'd point out that she does use it in TP. She uses it to discover the source of the curse that Zant put on Link, before she tells him to find the Master Sword.
Yes, she does!
She also uses it to transfer her life power to midna during the same cut-scene!

Quote:
ALL of Ganon's power emanates from his Triforce piece. Whatever he gave Zant absolutely had to come from the ToP. And yes, we saw Midna fight very briefly after she warped Zelda/Link to Hyrule Field. Then she got blown up. Ganon was only a Gerudo king before he touched the Triforce.
I'd agree with you, but I wouldn't say all. Remember, Ganondorf had been using magic far before he got a hold of the ToP: Knocking Link around, sealing the dodongo's cavern, making Jabu-Jabu sick with amoebas, putting a curse on the Great Deku Tree, etc.

BUT, it is still more likely that he gave Zant a part of the ToP, seeing as his magic was minimal in comparison to the ToP.

As well, it would seem that the ToP made the seal around Hyrule Castle, which means that the Fused Shadow WOULD be more powerful than the ToP, seeing as Midna destroyed the barrier.

Quote:
Zelda's never used Power. I'm going to assume you meant Wisdom. We aren't sure if Wisdom actually does anything at all. Zelda seems to have some magical ability, casting balls of light, flying, and a triforce trap. Any of these, and even her abilities in other games like Oot, could stem from her status as a Sage. In Oot she was so unwise she was responsible for Ganon's takeover in the first place, so Wisdom obviously didn't help her that much.
I hate disagreeing with you because technically, you're on my side. However, at that moment she was possessed by Ganondorf; those attacks weren't her's. Much to explanation of the similarities in fight style: batting around a ball of electricity, flying.

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Wrong, the Light Spirits were incapacitated by Zant, who was using Ganon's power. Zant had no special power of his own, he was using Ganon's power.
Wrong, sir! During the explanation of these events by ( I think, either him or Faron) the light spirit, Ordon, you see a recollection of the Dark beasts, or whatever they're officially called, killing him and the twilight covering that area. Thus, 'twas not Ganon who killed the light spirits but the Dark Beasts, sent by Zant!

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We all know that Ganon is connected to Demise. He's Demise's hatred incarnate.
Precisely.

Quote:
Besides, we know of only 2 ways that the way to the Sacred Realm can be opened by either the Sages or the Master Sword in the Temple of Time and by TP that method became obsolete.
We only KNOW two ways, that doesn't mean that there aren't others.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:52 AM
StinksAwakening United States StinksAwakening is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by Devoid View Post

Wrong, sir! During the explanation of these events by ( I think, either him or Faron) the light spirit, Ordon, you see a recollection of the Dark beasts, or whatever they're officially called, killing him and the twilight covering that area. Thus, 'twas not Ganon who killed the light spirits but the Dark Beasts, sent by Zant!
But where did Zant get the power to steal the Light Spirit's light from? Ganon. That's why I was careful to say "Ganon's Power" and not Ganon himself. The point is that Ganon's "twilight" differs from the twilight of the "normal" Twilight Realm.

This is confirmed in the game, because when Link enters the Twilight Realm, he isn't transformed into a beast. However, when he comes across the "Shadow Fog"(which is comprised of Shadow Crystals), he does transform, which indicates that the dark crystals are not native to the Twilight Realm.

Also, Zant confirms that his magic comes from "his god", and is different from that of the Twili.
Last Edited by StinksAwakening; 05-03-2012 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #96 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-03-2012, 11:52 AM
Devoid Devoid is a male United States Devoid is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by TurkeyMcBean View Post
But where did Zant get the power to steal the Light Spirit's light from? Ganon. That's why I was careful to say "Ganon's Power" and not Ganon himself. The point is that Ganon's "twilight" differs from the twilight of the "normal" Twilight Realm.

This is confirmed in the game, because when Link enters the Twilight Realm, he isn't transformed into a beast. However, when he comes across the "Shadow Fog"(which is comprised of Shadow Crystals), he does transform, which indicates that the dark crystals are not native to the Twilight Realm.

Also, Zant confirms that his magic comes from "his god", and is different from that of the Twili.
Ah, very true, my friend, very true.

However, this does not exactly instate that Ganondorf had any direct effect on the Twilight that covered Hyrule. He was only the means that made the "Twilight Invasion" possible.

I say once more, the Twilight was only held back by the Light spirits, so this is not "Ganondorf's" Twilight but a Twilight that already existed.
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  #97 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-03-2012, 03:22 PM
Jedi Master Sagan Jedi Master Sagan is a male United States Jedi Master Sagan is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by Devoid View Post
I'm not saying that my theory has to be absolutely true, that's why it's a theory. I had always thought that the Twilight Realm and the Sacred Realm were, at least in part, one in the same. And, isn't that the point of the Theorizing Section, to be proven or disproven?
That's fine, except all the evidence we have indicates that they are not, in fact, the same.

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Originally Posted by Devoid View Post
Ah, very true, my friend, very true.

However, this does not exactly instate that Ganondorf had any direct effect on the Twilight that covered Hyrule. He was only the means that made the "Twilight Invasion" possible.

I say once more, the Twilight was only held back by the Light spirits, so this is not "Ganondorf's" Twilight but a Twilight that already existed.
What? That makes no sense. If the curse on Hyrule were a natural phenomenon that was only held back by the Light Spirits, it should behave the same as Twilight Realm. That fact that it doesn't indicates that the curse isn't natural, ergo Ganondorf. Suppressing the kami was necessary because their presence prevented the extension of his own power into the Light World.
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I'd call you our resident science fairy but you have more of a tendency to bulldoze over theories and "science bulldozer" just doesn't have that nickname sparkle.
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  #98 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 05-03-2012, 07:37 PM
Devoid Devoid is a male United States Devoid is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
What? That makes no sense. If the curse on Hyrule were a natural phenomenon that was only held back by the Light Spirits, it should behave the same as Twilight Realm. That fact that it doesn't indicates that the curse isn't natural, ergo Ganondorf. Suppressing the kami was necessary because their presence prevented the extension of his own power into the Light World.
Good point. However, the Twilight was naturally occuring phenomenon because it was only at the Twilight hour in the light world did the Twilight ever come close enough to affect Hyrule (of course, this is only true when the balance of light and shadow are equal). This is stated in the very beginning of the game, or at least something close to, or implying it.

TP took the idea of Twilight IRL into a new light (pun intended!) by expanding on that element. It almost has to be naturally occuring.

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That's fine, except all the evidence we have indicates that they are not, in fact, the same.
That could be true. But,I have my theory, you have yours. Live and Let Live.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:53 PM
Jedi Master Sagan Jedi Master Sagan is a male United States Jedi Master Sagan is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by Devoid View Post
Good point. However, the Twilight was naturally occuring phenomenon because it was only at the Twilight hour in the light world did the Twilight ever come close enough to affect Hyrule (of course, this is only true when the balance of light and shadow are equal). This is stated in the very beginning of the game, or at least something close to, or implying it.p
What? I'm trying to parse this into a coherent statement, and I'm failing. Rephrase, please.

Quote:
TP took the idea of Twilight IRL into a new light (pun intended!) by expanding on that element. It almost has to be naturally occuring.
Then why have we never seen its effects before? There are no kami in the middle of the ocean, yet WW and PH never show people as anything other than fully corporeal.

Quote:
That could be true. But,I have my theory, you have yours. Live and Let Live.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Seriously, if a theory has no evidence supporting it, or is contradicted by the available evidence, it's not a theory at all. It's fanfic.
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I'd call you our resident science fairy but you have more of a tendency to bulldoze over theories and "science bulldozer" just doesn't have that nickname sparkle.
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:51 AM
Devoid Devoid is a male United States Devoid is offline
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Re: Alternate realms

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Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
What? I'm trying to parse this into a coherent statement, and I'm failing. Rephrase, please.

Then why have we never seen its effects before? There are no kami in the middle of the ocean, yet WW and PH never show people as anything other than fully corporeal.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Seriously, if a theory has no evidence supporting it, or is contradicted by the available evidence, it's not a theory at all. It's fanfic.
1:it being a naturally occuring phenomenon is proven by the beginning of the game

2: Different Timeline. Different game...

3:Love the use of a Princess Bride reference there

4:True,but the only evidence you've given me is "the Triforce inside the Twilight Realm" and I created a theory to fix that.
Last Edited by Devoid; 05-06-2012 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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