Alternate realms

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

Evidence, please.

Evidence for what? I provided you with the only possibilities that would make the conditions true. They're self-evident. I never said which one was true, which is what I would need to provide evidence for if I was making such a claim.

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

According to LttP, Ganondorf wished to rule the world. More specifically, he wanted the Light World. How does that possibly translate to "create the Dark World from the Sacred Realm?"

Only the Essence of the Triforce (read: the writers) know the answer to that one, but that's what the game tells us happens. The way the game explains it is that Ganon's wish to rule the world wasn't very strong, hence why the Triforce gave him the Sacred Realm and transformed it into the Dark World rather than giving him the Light World (and in this situation I read "strong" as "specific"; so he wished to rule the world, but since there were two worlds there and he didn't specify which one he wanted, he was only given the Dark World). That's directly from the game. (And my interpretation is the only possibility I can think of at the moment that would explain away what would otherwise be a plot hole if it wasn't true, but if you've got another explanation, I'd be happy to hear it.)

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

(especially since according to the Historia he was in the Light World when he reassembled and claimed the True Force)

Source?

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

Sheik starts her speech with "If you would seek the sacred triangle, listen well..." She's obviously quoting verbatim from an old legend passed down by the Royal Family, and of course such things are always literally true, right?

First of all, what does Sheik's speech have to do with anything since we're talking about a quote from Rauru detailing something that he has intimate knowledge of, having spent at least several centuries there? Second, apart from what Fi said in SS and Tingle's Legend of the Fairy in TWW to a very small extent, we've never had reason to believe that any of the legends weren't literally true before Hyrule Historia (since every legend that was spoken of that could be proven or debunked ended up proven (except for Tingle literally being a fairy, as already said).

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

Wrong. LttP explicitly shows us that there is spillover between the Light and Dark Worlds, because the only way to enter the Swamp Palace is to drain a reservoir in the Light World.

You're equating the Dark World to the Evil Realm in order to make this point, when you're supposed to be making a point in order to equate the Dark World and the Evil Realm. This is backwards logic.

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

Sheik says that Impa's the Sage of Shadow, actually.

How would Sheik know if Impa didn't? (And this may just be a personal interpretation, but I don't see a problem in knowing that you're a sage and not yet hearing the awakening call that lets you fulfill that sagely role that you already know you're destined for. See Zelda for possible evidence of that.)

Originally Posted by Volvagia_slayer

Evidence for what? I provided you with the only possibilities that would make the conditions true. They're self-evident. I never said which one was true, which is what I would need to provide evidence for if I was making such a claim.

Those are the sole possibilities only if what you're saying about the Sacred Realm is actually the case. Conversely, if you could show that at least one of those possibilities indeed true, by implication your position on the Sacred Realm would also be true, which is why I asked for some proof.

Only the Essence of the Triforce (read: the writers) know the answer to that one, but that's what the game tells us happens. The way the game explains it is that Ganon's wish to rule the world wasn't very strong, hence why the Triforce gave him the Sacred Realm and transformed it into the Dark World rather than giving him the Light World (and in this situation I read "strong" as "specific"; so he wished to rule the world, but since there were two worlds there and he didn't specify which one he wanted, he was only given the Dark World). That's directly from the game. (And my interpretation is the only possibility I can think of at the moment that would explain away what would otherwise be a plot hole if it wasn't true, but if you've got another explanation, I'd be happy to hear it.)

Except "strong" doesn't mean "specific" at all. It's not like the Triforce was communicating in Ye Olde Hylian or something. If "specific" was what it meant it would have actually used the word "specific."

As for another explanation, simple. He wanted to rule the world, but it wasn't a desire from the bottom of his heart, so he got turned into a demon who could potentially conquer it instead. As a demon, his power manifested a makai, where it held sway (other examples of makai include Dark Hyrule Castle, Twilight Hyrule, and the FSA Dark World), and because his power was granted by the Triforce his makai encompassed the entirety of the Sacred Realm, rather merely a region within it.

EDIT: To clarify, Ganondorf didn't want to rule the world for the sake of ruling it, but as an expression of his power. So the Triforce gave him the power that was the base motivation for his wish. To veer off into a pseudo-psychoanalysis, it sort of ties into his monologue in WW about how living in the desert sucked. In the desert, it's you against the world, and you're certainly not going to win there. Hence, a desire for power.

Source?

From GlitterBerri's site:

Originally Posted by Hyrule Historia, p 90

•The Decisive Battle With Ganondorf

However, Ganondorf, who had held Link under observation, kidnapped Princess Zelda and took her to the castle, and, in an effort to obtain the Triforce, lured Link to him.

Once the Triforce of Power, possessed by Ganondorf, the Triforce of Wisdom that dwelt in Princess Zelda, and the Triforce of Courage that dwelt in Link became one, they would resonate together. Finally, the time had come to battle with Ganondorf.

(This is where, if the Hero of Time, Link, is defeated, another timeline will unfold. Please turn to page 92.)

Originally Posted by Hyrule Historia, p 92

•The Seven Sages Seal Away the Demon King, Ganon

Finally, Ganondorf obtains the Triforce of Wisdom that dwells in Zelda and the Triforce of Courage that dwells in Link. Having obtained true power, he becomes the Demon King, Ganon. The people of Hyrule, lead by Princess Zelda, seal away the Demon King, Ganon, and the Triforce in the Sacred Realm as a last resort.

Unless you want to claim that Ganondorf decided to take a trip back to the Sacred Realm for their epic showdown rather than waiting for the Hero of Time at his castle in the Light World, that's where he reassembled the True Force.

First of all, what does Sheik's speech have to do with anything since we're talking about a quote from Rauru detailing something that he has intimate knowledge of, having spent at least several centuries there? Second, apart from what Fi said in SS and Tingle's Legend of the Fairy in TWW to a very small extent, we've never had reason to believe that any of the legends weren't literally true before Hyrule Historia (since every legend that was spoken of that could be proven or debunked ended up proven (except for Tingle literally being a fairy, as already said).

What quote from Rauru? The only person who suggests anything like that is Sheik. This is what Rauru has to say on the matter:

いま一度、思い出すがよい。 ハイラルの平和を　願って お前が　開いた　「時の扉」から この　禁断の聖地へ　あろうことか…
You must remember once more. When you opened the "Door of Time" wishing for Hyrule to have peace, the way to the forbidden Sacred Land was opened...
But, remember... Though you opened the Door of Time in the name of peace...

ゲルドの盗賊王　ガノンドロフが 侵入してきたのじゃ!
And Ganondorf, the Gerudo King of Thieves, invaded it!
Ganondorf, the Gerudo King of Thieves, used it to enter this forbidden Sacred Realm!

奴は　聖地の中心…　この光の神殿で トライフォースを　手に入れ、その力で　魔王となったのじゃ。
He acquired the Triforce in the center of this Sacred Land...in this Temple of Light. And with that power he became the Maou.
He obtained the Triforce from the Temple of Light, and with its power, he became the King of Evil...

奴の魔力は　神殿を通して流れ出し、わずか　七年で　ハイラル全土を 魔物の国と　変えてしもうた…
His magic power continued to flow out of the temples and in only seven years the entire land of Hyrule was turned into a land of monsters...
His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule, and in seven short years, it transformed Hyrule into a world of monsters.

もはや　この聖地でさえ ワシの力が　およぶ場所は、ごく　わずかな場所…
Already, even in this Sacred Land, my power has but a very limited reach...
My power now has only little influence, even in this Sacred Realm...

この　賢者の間だけに　すぎぬ。 しかし、希望は　ある… 我らには 賢者の力が　残っておる!
It extends no further than this Room of Sages. But there is still hope... The power of the Sages remains!
Namely, this Chamber of Sages. But there is still hope... The power of the Sages remains.

Tell me where that says the Sacred Realm transformed into the Evil Realm as soon as Ganondorf entered. If anything, the fact that Rauru's power has any reach in the Evil Realm at all suggests that the corruption of the Evil Realm is "merely" an extension of Ganondorf's own power.

You're equating the Dark World to the Evil Realm in order to make this point, when you're supposed to be making a point in order to equate the Dark World and the Evil Realm. This is backwards logic.

It's not my logic that's backwards. The Dark World and the Evil Realm are the same metaphysical location with the same origin. If you want to claim that somehow they have different physics, the burden of proof is on you.

How would Sheik know if Impa didn't? (And this may just be a personal interpretation, but I don't see a problem in knowing that you're a sage and not yet hearing the awakening call that lets you fulfill that sagely role that you already know you're destined for. See Zelda for possible evidence of that.)

I hear that Zelda has mysterious powers of clairvoyance, not commonly found in others? Powers that may even have been enhanced by Wisdom? That wasn't even my point, anyway. Why didn't Saria awaken, when she was closer to her temple in the time between Ganondorf's entry into the Sacred Realm and his acquisition of Power than Impa was to hers?

I don't think the Silent Realm has any connection to the sacred realm.

First of all, the Sacred Realm is a physical plane, but the Silent Realm is more like an astral plane.

When the goddesses created the Triforce, it was obviously whole, but in SS, it's split in 3. In the backstory, it says that "the old ones" entrusted the Triforce to Hylia, the old ones could of course refer to the goddesses, but it could also mean people. Assuming it means people, they took it out of the sacred realm (where the wrong people could find it), and gave it to Hylia, who split it into 3, and made it only obtainable in an astral plane, which could only be accessed by the ♥♥♥♥loads of trials she prepared for her worthy hero. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

Actually, she says old gods. Sorry, guy.

It says "Old ones" in the opening video of the game? With the animation and all, doesn't it?

Zelda herself says old gods when explaining Hylia's gambit. If anybody would know, it'd be her.

In my opinion (and this may have been said before me but I'm too lazy to read all of these posts), the Silent Realm is so obviously the Sacred Realm because of the locations of the entryways to the Dark World, which is proven to be the tainted Sacred Realm.

One on Death Mountain/ Eldin Volcano
One in the Desert of Mystery (I think, I haven't played all the way through ALttp yet)/ Lanayru Desert
One in the Lost Woods/ Faron Woods
And one in the main enterance to Hyrule Castle/ (possibly) Skyloft
There are more but these could possibly be just random leaks.

I'd also venture to say that the Twilight Realm is also the Silent Realm/ Sacred Realm/ Dark World based on the "Light Vessel"/ "Spirit Vessel" idea and the theory that, in the Child Timeline, Ganon never tainted the Sacred Realm but instead it was corrupted by the "Dark Interlopers", turning it into the Twilight Realm. And of course, as per the events of Twilight Princess, this Twilight spread across Hyrule after the Light spirits were...incapacitated?

I'd also venture to say that the Twilight Realm is also the Silent Realm/ Sacred Realm/ Dark World based on the "Light Vessel"/ "Spirit Vessel" idea and the theory that, in the Child Timeline, Ganon never tainted the Sacred Realm but instead it was corrupted by the "Dark Interlopers", turning it into the Twilight Realm. And of course, as per the events of Twilight Princess, this Twilight spread across Hyrule after the Light spirits were...incapacitated?

How can the Sacred Realm be "corrupted by the 'Dark Interlopers' " if they never made it into the Sacred Realm?

As this war dragged on, the four Light Spirits intervened at the behest of the Golden Goddesses, chasing the Dark Interlopers across Hyrule and into the twilight, locking them away in the Twilight Realm and shattering the Fused Shadow into four fragments that were separated henceforth to prevent the weapon's misuse.

From this context, its best to say that the Twilight Realm was another separate, stand-alone realm that already existed.

Also, the Twilight was brought into Hyrule only because the Zant incapacitated the Light Spirits. Nothing from the Sacred Realm suggests anything. The Sacred Realm is barely mentioned in TP.

Originally Posted by keyaki

How can the Sacred Realm be "corrupted by the 'Dark Interlopers' " if they never made it into the Sacred Realm?

Simple. At one time, the Mirror of Twilight was a basic entryway into the Sacred Realm that could only be opened by one of dominating power (Sages, Midna, etc.)

Originally Posted by Devoid

Simple. At one time, the Mirror of Twilight was a basic entryway into the Sacred Realm that could only be opened by one of dominating power (Sages, Midna, etc.)

How does that even make sense? Not only that, if that were the case what "dominating power" could open the mirror in the first place?

Twilight Realm can't be the Sacred Realm, for the simple fact that the proto-Twili were basically banished for trying to conquer the Sacred Realm. Why would they then be locked in the very place they wanted to get to? Y'know, with the Triforce? That completely defeats the purpose of building the Temple of Time to keep people out of the Sacred Realm and away from the Triforce.

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

Twilight Realm can't be the Sacred Realm, for the simple fact that the proto-Twili were basically banished for trying to conquer the Sacred Realm. Why would they then be locked in the very place they wanted to get to? Y'know, with the Triforce? That completely defeats the purpose of building the Temple of Time to keep people out of the Sacred Realm and away from the Triforce.

Not only that, but in TP the Triforce wasn't in the Triforce. So why would the "Dark Interlopers" try to infiltrate that's empty?

I'm jumping in here a little late, but here are the only ones that I can think are related: The Silent Realm, The Sacred Realm, The Dark World.

Why? Well it seems like the Silent Realm in SS is a realm that pretty much completely mirrors the normal world. I think, after SS, they put the Triforce in the Silent Realm so to better protect it. Since it is now in there under protection by the sages, the Silent Realm is now known as the Sacred Realm, still mirroring the normal world almost exactly. Then, OoT happens and Ganny comes along, yada yada yada: Dark World.

Originally Posted by keyaki

How does that even make sense? Not only that, if that were the case what "dominating power" could open the mirror in the first place?

Sages, Goddesses, etc.

Well it seems like the Silent Realm in SS is a realm that pretty much completely mirrors the normal world

This is another good point. Much like the Dark World, The twilight covered Hyrule and perfectly mirrored it.

Twilight Realm can't be the Sacred Realm, for the simple fact that the proto-Twili were basically banished for trying to conquer the Sacred Realm. Why would they then be locked in the very place they wanted to get to? Y'know, with the Triforce? That completely defeats the purpose of building the Temple of Time to keep people out of the Sacred Realm and away from the Triforce.

Well, remember. The Triforce of Courage was, supposedly, handed down in generations to TP Link, Zelda still had the Triforce of Wisdom( though obviously a different Zelda), and Ganondorf revealed the Triforce of Power just after he "Died". so obviously the Triforce wasn't in the Sacred Realm, thus making it an empty realm to use as an inescapable prison.

Not only that, but in TP the Triforce wasn't in the Triforce. So why would the "Dark Interlopers" try to infiltrate that's empty?

You just solved you own problem. They probably didn't know that the Triforce wasn't there. And, I think you meant "In the Sacred Realm."

One crucial point is that the silent realm is a realm for spirits only, Link leaves his physical body behind, Fi says this. But the sacred realm is a physical place. Of course, it's possible that the portals in SS only transported you into the "spiritual half" of the sacred realm, so to speak, which is called the silent realm. But then I guess Hyrule would also have a similar spirit realm too.

Originally Posted by Devoid

This is another good point. Much like the Dark World, The twilight covered Hyrule and perfectly mirrored it..

The twilight that covered Hyrule is not the same as the Twilight Realm, though. The "twilight" that covered Hyrule was due to Ganondorf's power. Technically, any land that gets taken over by Ganon becomes a "dark world"... what we saw in Twilight Princess was an illustration of how that happens.

Furthermore, the Twilight Realm (the world behind the mirror) looks nothing like Hyrule.

Well, remember. The Triforce of Courage was, supposedly, handed down in generations to TP Link, Zelda still had the Triforce of Wisdom( though obviously a different Zelda), and Ganondorf revealed the Triforce of Power just after he "Died". so obviously the Triforce wasn't in the Sacred Realm, thus making it an empty realm to use as an inescapable prison.

The problem is that the Twili were locked in the Twilight Realm before Ganondorf, TP Link, and TP Zelda were even born.

Originally Posted by Stormkalv

One crucial point is that the silent realm is a realm for spirits only... But the sacred realm is a physical place.

Where did you get that idea? If the Dark World in ALttP is any indication, we can surmise that people take a form based on their spirit when they enter the Sacred Realm. The only reason the people transformed into creatures in ALttP was due to Ganon's dark power.

As far as the Silent Realm goes, I think it's more reasonable to assume that Hylia, having control over the Sacred Realm, simply redesigned it to be a world of trials.

Originally Posted by Devoid

Well, remember. The Triforce of Courage was, supposedly, handed down in generations to TP Link, Zelda still had the Triforce of Wisdom( though obviously a different Zelda), and Ganondorf revealed the Triforce of Power just after he "Died". so obviously the Triforce wasn't in the Sacred Realm, thus making it an empty realm to use as an inescapable prison.

Fan speculation is that the proto-Twili were the ones who prompted the construction of the Temple of Time to begin with, in an attempt to prevent future conflict over who got to have the Triforce. Even if that were not the case, Midna treats Zant as a contemporary and not as an elder, so he's probably at most a generation older than her. At the same time, Midna refers to the original banished proto-Twili as their "ancestors," implicitly excluding Zant from their number. People generally don't refer to their parents or grandparents as "ancestors," so that is at least three generations of separation between herself and the original proto-Twili, and at least two between Zant and the proto-Twili. All of which means that by the time the True Force split apart and Ganondorf found Zant, the Twili would already have been in the Sacred Realm for years, with the True Force.

Originally Posted by TurkeyMcBean

Where did you get that idea? If the Dark World in ALttP is any indication, we can surmise that people take a form based on their spirit when they enter the Sacred Realm. The only reason the people transformed into creatures in ALttP was due to Ganon's dark power.

It's an understandable assumption to make, since we see in SS that entering the Silent Realms strips you of your gear, while that's obviously not the case in OoT and LttP.

Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi

It's an understandable assumption to make, since we see in SS that entering the Silent Realms strips you of your gear, while that's obviously not the case in OoT and LttP.

You also must consider that he was being tested.

Originally Posted by TurkeyMcBean

The twilight that covered Hyrule is not the same as the Twilight Realm, though. The "twilight" that covered Hyrule was due to Ganondorf's power. Technically, any land that gets taken over by Ganon becomes a "dark world"... what we saw in Twilight Princess was an illustration of how that happens.

Furthermore, the Twilight Realm (the world behind the mirror) looks nothing like Hyrule.






The problem is that the Twili were locked in the Twilight Realm before Ganondorf, TP Link, and TP Zelda were even born.



Where did you get that idea? If the Dark World in ALttP is any indication, we can surmise that people take a form based on their spirit when they enter the Sacred Realm. The only reason the people transformed into creatures in ALttP was due to Ganon's dark power.

As far as the Silent Realm goes, I think it's more reasonable to assume that Hylia, having control over the Sacred Realm, simply redesigned it to be a world of trials.

ALttP presents the dark world as a physical place, and in Ocarina of Time, the whole deal with time travel and how it works makes a lot more sense if Link warps physically away from the temple of time when he pulls out the master sword.

Originally Posted by Stormkalv

ALttP presents the dark world as a physical place, and in Ocarina of Time, the whole deal with time travel and how it works makes a lot more sense if Link warps physically away from the temple of time when he pulls out the master sword.

The Sacred Realm takes on different forms depending on who controls it. It was a spiritual place under Hylia's rule because she only intended for the hero to go there to test his spirit.