So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Originally Posted by zeldafan1982

@ A Link To My Past: The outcome that we saw in OoT (with the AT version of the final battle) is not overridden, it was just incomplete. Imo, HH just shows another branch of the multiverse. Different battles in parallel timelines and different outcomes. The idea is not new.

I get that, but my sheer stubbornness won't accept it as an explanation. To me, it's too vague, too convenient. I'm not condemning the idea completely as I'm hoping Nintendo put a bit more meat on the bone and rationalise the explanation a touch more. As it stands I dislike the way the timeline branches off to the DT, but I have to accept it. I'm being told it's correct by Nintendo so no point in fighting it, but I don't like it like it and I don't think Nintendo have thought it through thoroughly. I think far better timeline theories with far less inconsistencies and anomalies are offered up on here everyday.

I really hope that the exact point the timeline splits is divulged and what causes it .... it's all a bit murky at the moment

That's essentially what you're claiming by saying that Aonuma did "a great job with what he had to work with," when no, that's not the case.

Well, then that's your opinion.

I even suggested a minor alteration that accomplishes essentially the same thing without leaving Ganondorf completely brain-dead

And though it was a great idea, its still your opinion about what Ganondorf did in that scenario. No matter how many people agree with you, it still remains opinion. Besides, in the heat of things people have been known to mess up pretty bad sometimes. So he got overconfident... He's narcissistic, of course he wouldn't consider Zelda being there. I think it makes Ganondorf sound more human.

But what the Historia says, essentially, is that Ganondorf had captured Zelda, and then beat the Hero of Time. Then he was able to reassemble the True Force and become Ganon. If he was able to do that, then all other evidence we have in the series is that Zelda must have been incapacitated in order for Ganondorf to take Wisdom from her, and therefore in no condition to lead the Sages in the effort to banish him into the Dark World. Yet that is literally also what the Historia says happened. So Ganon, after gaining ultimate power, simply stands there and lets her recover instead of finishing her off?

Well, that's your opinion. Yes, it would be logical for Ganondorf should have finished her off. But Ganondorf's main attribute is power, not wisdom. He's not going to think of such a thing anyways. He's never been a multi-tasker.

That is such jarring stupidity that I cannot believe that such a Ganondorf could have ever concocted his plan to take the Triforce in the first place, and it makes Hyrule even more stupid for not being able to stop such an idiot or depose him afterward. This isn't Bond villain "I'll monologue at you while you're in my death trap" stupid, it's "here, I'll release you from my death trap and give you your weapon back" stupid.

Well, now... You don't sound like such a Zelda fan anymore with talk like that. Either that, or you're one tough critic....

Moving on

Originally Posted by zeldafan1982

This is from Glitterberri's site:

I have the impression though that the people of Hyrule part was not properly translated. It seems to contradict the title (which probably isn't ambiguous since it contains a number -- ******* Japanese!) and where did the "people of Hyrule" come from? There weren't any soldiers available in the original battle.

And this is only from Snow from here

It's probably the sages lead by princess Zelda.

Also just to clarify, what I had in mind was that the six sages intervened in order for Zelda to regain her senses and all of them combined their powers to seal him, provided that Link had managed to weaken him significantly of course.

Maybe this translation will help:

七賢者が魔王ガノンを封印
The Seven Sages Seal the Demon King Ganon

ガノンドロフは、ついにゼルダ姫に宿る知恵のトライフォース、リンクに宿る勇気のトライフォー スを手にしてしまった。真の力を得た彼は、魔王ガノンとなる。ゼルダ姫を長とするハイラルの七 賢者は、最後 の手段として、魔王ガノンをトライフォースごと聖地へと封印した。
Ganondorf had finally obtained the Triforce of Wisdom from Princess Zelda and the Triforce of Courage from Link; and had them in hand. The Evil King Ganon had real power. Princess Zelda--the head of the seven sages of Hyrule--as a last resort, sealed the Demon King Ganon to the Holy Land.

Originally Posted by Mack

^ Wait that can't be right. Zelda sent Adult Link back to his childhood after he defeated Ganon. The timeline he left behind turned into the events of Wind Waker. The Defeated Timeline that I was referring to is when Link was unsuccessful in defeating Ganon, leading into the events on A Link to the Past.

Look, look. Here is why there HAS to be a DT. Considering that time travel works in this way: when you travel through time you are not actually travelling through time, but you are travelling to a different dimension where that time presently exists.

This means that when Link returned the sword and went BACK in time to obtain the Lens of Truth, that dimension was left to perish without Link to defeat Ganon.

It's that simple, you just have to think about time travel as it is in Dragonball Z

Originally Posted by Pianoasis

This means that when Link returned the sword and went BACK in time to obtain the Lens of Truth, that dimension was left to perish without Link to defeat Ganon.

I have actually seen this theory somewhere on YouTube, and at the time I believed it could be true. Until I read the Hyrule Historia. The book states that Link is defeated by Ganon on top of his tower, which marks the beginning of the DT.

Oh. Uhh... this is why I don't like the Hyrule Historia..

Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind

Well, then that's your opinion.

And though it was a great idea, its still your opinion about what Ganondorf did in that scenario. No matter how many people agree with you, it still remains opinion. Besides, in the heat of things people have been known to mess up pretty bad sometimes. So he got overconfident... He's narcissistic, of course he wouldn't consider Zelda being there. I think it makes Ganondorf sound more human.

It's not just a matter of taking Wisdom and then forgetting about Zelda. It's forgetting about her while she's still on the ground next to him, and long enough for her to either regain consciousness or to break free of whatever enchantment he used to hold her down while he took Wisdom. Even in WW, where the Hero of Wind was still barely conscious when Ganondorf took Courage from him, it was still several minutes before he had recovered enough to fight. That's a pretty long time to stand next to Zelda and be completely oblivious to her presence, especially since she still wouldn't be in any condition to fight immediately after awakening or whatever. It's simply out-of-character compared to his portrayal in OoT, WW, and to a lesser extent TP.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I should explain why I believe Ganondorf's reassembly of the True Force means that Zelda was incapacitated. If we look at the other times that a Triforce piece was forcibly taken from its Bearer, there are two confirmed instances and one debatable instance. In LoZ, Ganon had Power, but instead of trying to take it from him Link resolves to destroy him. In WW Tetra is unconscious and the Hero of Wind nearly so when Ganondorf reassembles the True Force. And the Royal Family apparently had the True Force in FSA, so at some point between TP and FSA they had to recover Power. Whether or not that was from Ganondorf's corpse is debatable, but regardless the trend is that a Bearer who is able to resist in some way cannot be stripped of his Triforce piece.

Well, that's your opinion. Yes, it would be logical for Ganondorf should have finished her off. But Ganondorf's main attribute is power, not wisdom. He's not going to think of such a thing anyways. He's never been a multi-tasker.

I disagree. In OoT Ganondorf's original plan to enter the Sacred Realm was a well-planned, meticulous operation. The only thing that would have sunk it was the Master Sword, and if that was kept secret well enough that not even the Royal Family knew about it Ganondorf couldn't possibly have known about that to plan around it.

Well, now... You don't sound like such a Zelda fan anymore with talk like that. Either that, or you're one tough critic....

What kind of talk is that? Just because I'm a fan doesn't mean I have to sit there and take it when I see something that could have been done better. *harrumph*

Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind

Well, now... You don't sound like such a Zelda fan anymore with talk like that. Either that, or you're one tough critic....

Even I, a very lenient critic who can find joy in most products, call BS on this. It's because I'm a Zelda fan that such blatant terrible writing is offensive. You'd have to be incredibly dense to refuse to see this.

Kay everyone, calm down now. Wouldn't want this thread to turn ugly.

It's forgetting about her while she's still on the ground next to him, and long enough for her to either regain consciousness or to break free of whatever enchantment he used to hold her down while he took Wisdom. Even in WW, where the Hero of Wind was still barely conscious when Ganondorf took Courage from him, it was still several minutes before he had recovered enough to fight. That's a pretty long time to stand next to Zelda and be completely oblivious to her presence, especially since she still wouldn't be in any condition to fight immediately after awakening or whatever. It's simply out-of-character compared to his portrayal in OoT, WW, and to a lesser extent TP.

Who's said that she was laying right next to him when the fight with Link had ended? Is there evidence to support that claim?

Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind

Who's said that she was laying right next to him when the fight with Link had ended? Is there evidence to support that claim?

Because during the fight she was still in that crystal? She wasn't able to break out when Ganondorf "merely" had Power; how could she do so after Ganondorf acquired the True Force? Ganondorf had to have released her, and in that case he'd be right on top of her to prevent her from escaping with Wisdom before he can take it. Ergo, she's right next to him.

^ To get the Triforce from Zelda, Ganondorf would have released Zelda from the crystal. Zelda, being the head of the sages, still contains at least some amount of power. So, who is to say she didn't just get away from Ganondorf after he lets the barrier down? After all, Zelda's main attribute is wisdom. And I know she was fully conscious inside the crystal, so she was fully conscious when the crystal was let down too.

HH doesn't say that he extracted the pieces, only that he obtained them. The WW scene showed Link and Zelda being unconscious and then the Triforce assembled by itself.

In order to knock Zelda unconscious he doesn't have to release her, just use some magic upon her. So.. he goes to grab the assembled Triforce and right then the six Sages intervene to regain her senses. This can happen within moments. Midna for example recovered very quickly and she was nearly dead.

Regarding the (full) Triforce, the MS is supposed to be effective against it, so assuming that Ganondorf was severely wounded, the sages could still seal him. It's not that bad really. The only thing I don't like, is that it says he transformed, implying an increase in strength..

Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind

^ To get the Triforce from Zelda, Ganondorf would have released Zelda from the crystal. Zelda, being the head of the sages, still contains at least some amount of power. So, who is to say she didn't just get away from Ganondorf after he lets the barrier down? After all, Zelda's main attribute is wisdom. And I know she was fully conscious inside the crystal, so she was fully conscious when the crystal was let down too.

Yes, she was still conscious in the crystal. Hence, the fact that Ganondorf acquired the True Force anyway means that he must have further incapacitated her somehow. All the wisdom in the world won't do squat if she immediately gets conked on the head or something, meaning that she's still in no condition to banish Ganon. She'd have to first recover, and then begin the sealing process. Frankly, you're better off going with her being unconscious rather than restrained, because there's no way he wouldn't notice either his restraining spell being broken or the power Zelda used to do it. And then it's step, squish, and bye-bye Zelda.

Originally Posted by zeldafan1982

HH doesn't say that he extracted the pieces, only that he obtained them. The WW scene showed Link and Zelda being unconscious and then the Triforce assembled by itself.

Ganondorf did something to cause the True Force to reassemble, since the pieces don't appear until he picks up the Hero of Wind.

In order to knock Zelda unconscious he doesn't have to release her, just use some magic upon her. So.. he goes to grab the assembled Triforce and right then the six Sages intervene to regain her senses. This can happen within moments. Midna for example recovered very quickly and she was nearly dead.

What are you referring to here? Midna getting blasted by Lanayru, or her attempt to face Ganondorf alone?

Regarding the (full) Triforce, the MS is supposed to be effective against it, so assuming that Ganondorf was severely wounded, the sages could still seal him. It's not that bad really. The only thing I don't like, is that it says he transformed, implying an increase in strength..

The Master Sword vs the Triforce thing is an invention of NoA. But anyway, transforming in to Ganon should have rendered any injuries he sustained previously irrelevant, since in OoT his transformation was a result of using Power to survive his injuries.

I belive it is a "what if" part of the time line. Only one side of the timeline can be true... Link can't beat Ganon and lose to Ganon at the same time.... only one outcome to occur..... So its either the DT that is a "what if" scenario, or the AT and CT.

Originally Posted by guitarman741

I belive it is a "what if" part of the time line. Only one side of the timeline can be true... Link can't beat Ganon and lose to Ganon at the same time.... only one outcome to occur..... So its either the DT that is a "what if" scenario, or the AT and CT.

Neither of them are true. It's fiction. Thus they can be what ifs to each other.

What are you referring to here? Midna getting blasted by Lanayru, or her attempt to face Ganondorf alone?

I was referring to the former.

The Master Sword vs the Triforce thing is an invention of NoA. But anyway, transforming in to Ganon should have rendered any injuries he sustained previously irrelevant, since in OoT his transformation was a result of using Power to survive his injuries.

The mistake on NOA's part was about the era in which the Master Sword was created. This is from the Japanese version:

For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane.

The transformation bit is indeed problematic. Still, if we look at it as a legend that may contain inaccuracies, it can be.. circumvented. I would say that he was so badly injured that he couldn't do much.

In my view, what matters is the fact that Link weakened him and then the sages sealed him. The details of the battle are up to our imagination.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

Neither of them are true. It's fiction. Thus they can be what ifs to each other.

After thinking about it for what has been over 3 hours now..... It's the player that decided that. If theplayer died and got a game over while facing ganondorf then thats link dying and therefor the DT is true and the AT and CT are "what ifs". If the player beats Ganon, then Link never dies and therefor the DT is the "what if" and the AT and CT are true. So really it's the person playing the game that decides the fate of Hyrule......

Neither of them are true. It's fiction. Thus they can be what ifs to each other.

It doesn't have to be an entirely fictitious account. Between truth and fiction there is also the middle ground Especially since HH says (on page 68):

This chronology is not limited to information that is currently confirmable. It also contains much that is unclear. The history of Hyrule is known to change with the times and the person telling it, and will continue to unfold. Even if none of the important points waver by much, new legends will continue to be born and history may yet be rewritten.

The details here and there may be inaccurate, but I believe that the main events within the games and overall in the timeline are valid.

Originally Posted by zeldafan1982

I was referring to the former.

Well, that's after Zelda apparently used her own soul to heal Midna and passed along Wisdom. Not quite the same circumstances. You'll note that Zelda herself is out of it for most the rest of the game.

The mistake on NOA's part was about the era in which the Master Sword was created. This is from the Japanese version:

The Master Sword being designed to fight evil that sought the Triforce isn't the same as fighting the power of the Triforce itself, though.

The transformation bit is indeed problematic. Still, if we look at it as a legend that may contain inaccuracies, it can be.. circumvented. I would say that he was so badly injured that he couldn't do much.

In my view, what matters is the fact that Link weakened him and then the sages sealed him. The details of the battle are up to our imagination.

Well, if he's so badly injured that Zelda can banish him, then he should've been injured enough that she could break out from the crystal before he takes Wisdom from her.

Well, that's after Zelda apparently used her own soul to heal Midna and passed along Wisdom. Not quite the same circumstances.

True, but in the DT battle Zelda was only knocked unconscious.

The Master Sword being designed to fight evil that sought the Triforce isn't the same as fighting the power of the Triforce itself, though.

The MS was designed so that it could be used against someone who would reach the Triforce. The sages were searching for the MS (and a hero) after Ganon touched the Triforce and made his wish. Also, we saw in SS that the MS is essentially of divine origin.

Well, if he's so badly injured that Zelda can banish him, then he should've been injured enough that she could break out from the crystal before he takes Wisdom from her.

Regardless of what the section says, the title itself says that all of the sages sealed him, which is in accordance to what we saw in OoT. Zelda couldn't handle him by herself, the six sages "revived" her and all of them sealed him.