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View Poll Results: Do you believe that the DT is based off of a "what if" scenario?
Yes 13 39.39%
I have mixed feelings. 11 33.33%
No 9 27.27%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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  #141 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-19-2012, 12:43 AM
Jedi Master Sagan Jedi Master Sagan is a male United States Jedi Master Sagan is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind View Post
Ok, now that's pure opinion. I mean, sure; if Aonuma had been the one to start the whole The Legend of Zelda project, then the games of the DT would not even have ever been made. But he came in half-way through and he had new ideas. So he did a great job with what he had to work with. I would certainly like to see someone do a better job of putting the time line together with how the games were already made, and how the context of each played out.
By that logic, Spider-man: One More Day wasn't a horribly ham-fisted mess because Joe Quesada wasn't in charge when Spidey married MJ.

Even a change as simple as "using their scrying powers, the Six Sages saw that Zelda had been incapacitated and at the newly transformed Ganon's mercy, so as a last resort they sacrificed themselves to temporarily seal Ganon away" would work better than what we got, which was "Ganondorf had incapacitated Zelda to take Wisdom from her, reassembling the True Force. He was then banished into the Dark World by Zelda, who had inexplicably escaped somehow despite being incapacitated."
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  #142 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-19-2012, 09:15 AM
zeldafan1982 zeldafan1982 is a male Greece zeldafan1982 is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

I don't think that the explanation provided is that bad (it isn't spectacular either). Link may have been defeated, but he had weakened Ganon enough for the sealing to occur. After defeating Link, either the Triforce assembled right and then or Zelda was first knocked unconscious. Ganon goes to grab it, the six sages intervene, Zelda regains her senses and they seal him within the DR.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:27 AM
A Link To My Past A Link To My Past is a male United Kingdom A Link To My Past is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeldafan1982 View Post
I don't think that the explanation provided is that bad (it isn't spectacular either). Link may have been defeated, but he had weakened Ganon enough for the sealing to occur. After defeating Link, either the Triforce assembled right and then or Zelda was first knocked unconscious. Ganon goes to grab it, the six sages intervene, Zelda regains her senses and they seal him within the DR.
I wouldn't have a problem with this if this had been portrayed. The problem is, it wasn't. Link beat Ganondorf and he was sealed in the Sacred Realm. That is how events unfolded before our eyes.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:29 AM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
There is no third ending of OOT though. That's what I'm getting at. It's not merely distorted history, it's completely different history.
No, there's no third "ending" in game.
And I'm bginning to think that you think that outside of the games, Hyrule has no continual history. Because other games show otherwise.

Ocarina of Time isn't just a game. In the world of Hyrule, it's an actual historical event.

And in game, Link's death is entirely possible. And it is a completely alternate history, but there is a third ending.

And literally, the game does end there. Link dies, Game over. They wouldn't show what happens after Link's death because Link dies. He's the only playable character.

I
Quote:
t's different. We know that he doesn't get the full triforce after OOT.
And now Aonuma has told you tha what you "know" is untrue.

Quote:
We know that TWW and TP happen.
And we know ALttP happens. We've known it for about 21 years.

Quote:
In a what if timeline with a different history we know how he gets it before ALTTP. This is not distorted history like sleeping Zelda. It is different history.
And Link's victory is a different history now.
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  #145 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-19-2012, 09:53 AM
zeldafan1982 zeldafan1982 is a male Greece zeldafan1982 is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

@ A Link To My Past: Yes, but in a parallel timeline the alternate battle of OoT unfolded. The Hyruleans of each timeline are unaware of the other parallel branches but we have a more objective view and we can see them all. Either that or the AT/CT and the DT are mutually exclusive. The "what-if" interpretation of the DT is not really supported within HH.
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  #146 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-19-2012, 10:17 AM
A Link To My Past A Link To My Past is a male United Kingdom A Link To My Past is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeldafan1982 View Post
@ A Link To My Past: Yes, but in a parallel timeline the alternate battle of OoT unfolded. The Hyruleans of each timeline are unaware of the other parallel branches but we have a more objective view and we can see them all. Either that or the AT/CT and the DT are mutually exclusive. The "what-if" interpretation of the DT is not really supported within HH.
But that never happened. Although HH is trying to essentially rewrite the events of OoT, Link never lost to Ganondorf. HH suggests that the DT is what would have unfolded if Link didn't defeat Ganondorf, but he did.

But my opinion is fairly redundant as HH is canon and clearly states the DT did occur as a result of Link losing to Ganondorf.
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  #147 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-19-2012, 10:38 AM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Link To My Past View Post
Although HH is trying to essentially rewrite the events of OoT, Link never lost to Ganondorf.
OH
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Read my last post.
In game content isn't the only thing that matters when it comes to the timeline.
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  #148 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-19-2012, 11:36 AM
Kasuto Kasuto is a male Kasuto is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

^ Exactly. It's not like the timeline itsef is in-game content, so why should we look to the games exclusively?
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:52 AM
silver arrow silver arrow is a male Canada silver arrow is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper View Post
No, there's no third "ending" in game.
And I'm bginning to think that you think that outside of the games, Hyrule has no continual history. Because other games show otherwise.
I think outside the games plenty. We see in the game however, that there are only two endings. We are told about an alternate universe ending that leads into ALTTP. This is a different version of OOT though.

Quote:
Ocarina of Time isn't just a game. In the world of Hyrule, it's an actual historical event.
Correct. In that historical event, Link defeats Ganon and it leads into TWW. History doesn't have possibilities and alternate endings. It only happened one way.

Quote:
And in game, Link's death is entirely possible. And it is a completely alternate history, but there is a third ending.
Link dying is not an ending. It is just a game over, like in any other game. Being invincible would make the game not fun.

Quote:
And literally, the game does end there. Link dies, Game over. They wouldn't show what happens after Link's death because Link dies. He's the only playable character.
You can die anywhere in the game, not just during the fight with Ganon. It's clearly not any kind of third ending.

Quote:
And now Aonuma has told you tha what you "know" is untrue.
No. Actually he confirmed I was right, just like the games themselves confirm that I'm right. Then he added an alternate version of OOT to precede ALTTP. He didn't add any third ending or add anything to OOT's ending that we didn't already know. He created another history.

Quote:
And we know ALttP happens. We've known it for about 21 years.

And Link's victory is a different history now.
That's the same as what I'm saying. It's a different history. One in which OOT as we know it, didn't happen. It's different from the CT, where OOT didn't happen, but only exists because it did happen in another timeline.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:01 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
We are told about an alternate universe ending that leads into ALTTP. This is a different version of OOT though.
And OoT, both in terms of its original ending and this unseen third ending, is a "different version of the Imprisoning War."
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:10 PM
silver arrow silver arrow is a male Canada silver arrow is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
And OoT, both in terms of its original ending and this unseen third ending, is a "different version of the Imprisoning War."
Well, more like a different version of the events preceding the Imprisoning War according to HH. As far as original intent goes, yeah, it could be an alternate version of the SW.
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:21 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

... That was what I was saying this whole time! OoT doesn't match LttP's Imprisoning War (perfectly), but it's supposed to be a retelling of it! Since we're dealing with legend-stories, the non-matching is just a by-product of the story development process. As OoT takes on its own identity, it diverts from LttP's original blueprint.
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:41 PM
Kasuto Kasuto is a male Kasuto is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

So we all agree then! Nice
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:56 PM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
I think outside the games plenty. We see in the game however, that there are only two endings. We are told about an alternate universe ending that leads into ALTTP. This is a different version of OOT though
The only difference between the three timelines is the final battke with Ganon at that point in time.

Link lives and Link dies are the triggers that determine the future.

As far as a different versions go, you're only looking at the game itself, not the actual historical event, from within the fourth wall.

Look at the actual event outside of the fourth wall. All three timelines spring from one. The DT is't some altered history, it's the same universe that branches at the exact moment of Link's death.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:56 PM
silver arrow silver arrow is a male Canada silver arrow is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex View Post
... That was what I was saying this whole time! OoT doesn't match LttP's Imprisoning War (perfectly), but it's supposed to be a retelling of it! Since we're dealing with legend-stories, the non-matching is just a by-product of the story development process. As OoT takes on its own identity, it diverts from LttP's original blueprint.
I'd call it a reimagining since it just used the blueprint of the original story to make a new story. Retelling implies you're telling the same story but with different wording or style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper View Post
The only difference between the three timelines is the final battke with Ganon at that point in time.

Link lives and Link dies are the triggers that determine the future.

As far as a different versions go, you're only looking at the game itself, not the actual historical event, from within the fourth wall.

Look at the actual event outside of the fourth wall. All three timelines spring from one. The DT is't some altered history, it's the same universe that branches at the exact moment of Link's death.
In OOT, Link kills Ganon and lives. That is the actual historical event. Something can't happen and not happen at the same time.

You're right in that it's not altered history. Altered implies that something in universe changed the history. The CT is altered history. The DT is not the same universe though. It is a what if to OOT that tells if Link died. An alternate universe.

At any choice than can be made, there is a split in possible futures. That's all this split is. OOT is a definitive set of events. Any story that takes a different route during that time to a different future is a different history and an alternate universe.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:38 AM
The Baton of the Wind The Baton of the Wind is a male United States The Baton of the Wind is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
By that logic, Spider-man: One More Day wasn't a horribly ham-fisted mess because Joe Quesada wasn't in charge when Spidey married MJ.
I don't think that Spider Man has anything to do with Zelda.

Quote:
Even a change as simple as "using their scrying powers, the Six Sages saw that Zelda had been incapacitated and at the newly transformed Ganon's mercy, so as a last resort they sacrificed themselves to temporarily seal Ganon away" would work better than what we got, which was "Ganondorf had incapacitated Zelda to take Wisdom from her, reassembling the True Force. He was then banished into the Dark World by Zelda, who had inexplicably escaped somehow despite being incapacitated."
The only change Aonuma made in order to make the original AT into the DT was that Link was killed. But even so, Link was destined to defeat Ganondorf; nothing said he'd live through it. And with the help of the sages, Link defeated Ganondorf for he was sealed in the sacred realm.
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:51 PM
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Baton of the Wind View Post
I don't think that Spider Man has anything to do with Zelda.
It's the same principle. Joe Quesada wasn't in charge when Spidey married MJ, and he's stated that he doesn't believe Spidey should be married. So he used OMD to get rid of the marriage. Never mind that there were other ways to do it that don't inexplicably make Spidey a blithering idiot, Quesada wasn't responsible for the marriage in the first place, so it's okay that OMD was badly executed, right? That's essentially what you're claiming by saying that Aonuma did "a great job with what he had to work with," when no, that's not the case. Hell, I even suggested a minor alteration that accomplishes essentially the same thing without leaving Ganondorf completely brain-dead, and zeldafan1982 took it a step further and suggested an interpretation that still allowed Zelda to participate, even if in a minor role rather than as the central figure in Ganon's banishment that the Historia claims she was.

Quote:
The only change Aonuma made in order to make the original AT into the DT was that Link was killed. But even so, Link was destined to defeat Ganondorf; nothing said he'd live through it. And with the help of the sages, Link defeated Ganondorf for he was sealed in the sacred realm.
That's not what I'm getting at. I don't care about the Hero of Time losing. Well, let me qualify that. While as far as I'm concerned he won, I understand and accept the idea that if he lost a different set of events would take place. But what the Historia says, essentially, is that Ganondorf had captured Zelda, and then beat the Hero of Time. Then he was able to reassemble the True Force and become Ganon. If he was able to do that, then all other evidence we have in the series is that Zelda must have been incapacitated in order for Ganondorf to take Wisdom from her, and therefore in no condition to lead the Sages in the effort to banish him into the Dark World. Yet that is literally also what the Historia says happened. So Ganon, after gaining ultimate power, simply stands there and lets her recover instead of finishing her off?

That is such jarring stupidity that I cannot believe that such a Ganondorf could have ever concocted his plan to take the Triforce in the first place, and it makes Hyrule even more stupid for not being able to stop such an idiot or depose him afterward. This isn't Bond villain "I'll monologue at you while you're in my death trap" stupid, it's "here, I'll release you from my death trap and give you your weapon back" stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeldafan1982 View Post
I don't think that the explanation provided is that bad (it isn't spectacular either). Link may have been defeated, but he had weakened Ganon enough for the sealing to occur. After defeating Link, either the Triforce assembled right and then or Zelda was first knocked unconscious. Ganon goes to grab it, the six sages intervene, Zelda regains her senses and they seal him within the DR.
That's similar to what I proposed as what the Historia could have said instead, but the problem then is that it would be more "the Sages banished Ganon, and maybe Zelda helped" and not "Zelda, leader of Hyrule's seven Sages, banished Ganon" like the Historia says.
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  #158 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-20-2012, 09:36 PM
zeldafan1982 zeldafan1982 is a male Greece zeldafan1982 is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
That's similar to what I proposed as what the Historia could have said instead, but the problem then is that it would be more "the Sages banished Ganon, and maybe Zelda helped" and not "Zelda, leader of Hyrule's seven Sages, banished Ganon" like the Historia says.
This is from Glitterberri's site:

Quote:
The Seven Sages Seal Away the Demon King, Ganon

Finally, Ganondorf obtains the Triforce of Wisdom that dwells in Zelda and the Triforce of Courage that dwells in Link. Having obtained true power, he becomes the Demon King, Ganon. The people of Hyrule, lead by Princess Zelda, seal away the Demon King, Ganon, and the Triforce in the Sacred Realm as a last resort.
I have the impression though that the people of Hyrule part was not properly translated. It seems to contradict the title (which probably isn't ambiguous since it contains a number -- ******* Japanese!) and where did the "people of Hyrule" come from? There weren't any soldiers available in the original battle.

And this is only from Snow from here
Quote:
The Seven Sages seal away Ganon

Ganondorf takes the Triforce of Wisdom that dwells in Zelda and the Triforce of Courage that dwells in Link. With the true power [of the Triforce] he becomes the Demon King (Maou) Ganon. As a last resort, Zelda and the seven sages seal Ganondorf away into the Sacred Realm.
It's probably the sages lead by princess Zelda.

Also just to clarify, what I had in mind was that the six sages intervened in order for Zelda to regain her senses and all of them combined their powers to seal him, provided that Link had managed to weaken him significantly of course.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:49 PM
A Link To My Past A Link To My Past is a male United Kingdom A Link To My Past is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper View Post
OH
MY
GOD

Read my last post.
In game content isn't the only thing that matters when it comes to the timeline.
I know this, but I at least like to think that the games (which after all is the whole point of the series) are the most important sources of information. I don't want to play a game which I am in time told was actually not what happened. That way I don't feel as if I am contributing to the series. Obviously some things need updating, little bits here and there, but the whole storyline of a game? I'd rather they didn't.

Brilliant thing about opinions, they differ.
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Old 02-21-2012, 03:25 PM
zeldafan1982 zeldafan1982 is a male Greece zeldafan1982 is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

@ A Link To My Past: The outcome that we saw in OoT (with the AT version of the final battle) is not overridden, it was just incomplete. Imo, HH just shows another branch of the multiverse. Different battles in parallel timelines and different outcomes. The idea is not new.
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