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View Poll Results: Do you believe that the DT is based off of a "what if" scenario?
Yes 13 39.39%
I have mixed feelings. 11 33.33%
No 9 27.27%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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  #121 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-17-2012, 02:16 PM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
I don't understand how this relates to what I said.
I was giving an different from my own but supportive in the statement.
You're right. It isn't the prequel that was intended because they screwed that up. That doesn't stop it from being ALttP's prequel, even on a what if.

Quote:
That major event had to be changed in order for it to be possible though, is what I'm getting at. There is an opposite outcome in the main plot line.
Not really.
If they left FSA as the SW on the CT, it fulfills the prophecy about the sages not finding a hero to wield the MS. Link could have not been recognized as a hero at all, so no hero, outside of the standard people fighting Ganon, would have rose to help seal Ganon in the SR; where he would have stayed until ALttP.
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  #122 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-17-2012, 02:50 PM
silver arrow silver arrow is a male Canada silver arrow is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

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Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper View Post
Not really.
If they left FSA as the SW on the CT, it fulfills the prophecy about the sages not finding a hero to wield the MS. Link could have not been recognized as a hero at all, so no hero, outside of the standard people fighting Ganon, would have rose to help seal Ganon in the SR; where he would have stayed until ALttP.
I was talking about OOT being the SW, not FSA.
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  #123 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-17-2012, 03:14 PM
Mack Mack is a male Canada Mack is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Here is a question... Why would the creators make this a "what if" scenario?
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  #124 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-17-2012, 03:25 PM
The Baton of the Wind The Baton of the Wind is a male United States The Baton of the Wind is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeldafan1982 View Post
My concern here is that if I'd chose the AT/CT I would have to disregard 6 games and vice - versa. It's one thing to let the viewer/reader interpret things and another to essentially force him to deem a bunch of stories as non-canon.
Oh, that isn't an issue. It can be all canon if you want.

You see, each game has its own atmosphere and they all exist in different contexts.

For example: When I play A Link to the Past, I can imagine how it takes place in the ending of Ocarina of Time. And When I play Majora's Mask, I like to imagine it as the events from the hero's perspective after he'd already been to the future. And when I play Wind Waker, I like to imagine how it takes place in the ending of Ocarina of Time.

You just gots to open ur mind.

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Originally Posted by Darth Yoshi View Post
There's being creative and then there's poor writing.
Ok, now that's pure opinion. I mean, sure; if Aonuma had been the one to start the whole The Legend of Zelda project, then the games of the DT would not even have ever been made. But he came in half-way through and he had new ideas. So he did a great job with what he had to work with. I would certainly like to see someone do a better job of putting the time line together with how the games were already made, and how the context of each played out.

Quote:
Metaphysics or no, at least two of the branches--as they've been described--don't work without glaring stupidity on the part of people who are practically required by their circumstances to be competent.
You can have a favourite time line without disregarding the other two, as I described earlier. You can play Majora's Mask with a different feeling than when you play Wind Waker.

Hell, I'll venture to say that for you classic game lovers; you can play A Link to the Past and imagine that Link won and his fight was the seal war--as originally intended before Wind Waker etc. Just have a little imagination. This isn't some book like Harry Potter or Twilight.

----- To be honest, Skyward Sword and the release of the time line changed my perception of every single game. And I like how I see them now. They all connect to one another so well. And how each game connects to Skyward Sword is very interesting.
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Skyward Sword *Japanese Text* --- Wind Waker *Japanese Text*

SS intro & Hylia's Prophecies.................Events on Prolo [Outset]
Zelda's Explanation of Events to Link...Link's Adventure through the 1st Encounter with Ganondorf
Ghirahim's Encounters with Link.........Hyrule King and the Sages' Awakening
Demise's Words......................................Final Encounter with Ganondorf
Fi's Farewell to Link...............................Hyrule King's Farewell to Link and Zelda
Last Edited by The Baton of the Wind; 02-17-2012 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #125 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-17-2012, 03:48 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
Because the imprisoning War is a defined event in Hyrulian history. They could easily make another story about it that doesn't follow the plot exactly, but there are key moments in the historical event that make the imprisoning war the imprisoning war.
But this isn't how the timeline works, otherwise the Sleeping Zelda would be literally first (that was the key meaning of the story as originally told), Link wouldn't have a hat in Skyward Sword, and Ganon would have gotten the full Triforce in OoT. (Because, guess what, LttP's story says he took it from the Sacred Realm... which isn't true in the DT either.) Clearly the timeline involves stories that go against what previous stories say, and the developers seem to want us to think this isn't a problem.

My problem's not that your position isn't a valid one, it's just that it's not reflective of how the timeline is stated and shown to work.
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  #126 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-17-2012, 04:07 PM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
I was talking about OOT being the SW, not FSA.
I was adding on to your statement, not disagreeing. [this time]
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  #127 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-17-2012, 05:13 PM
silver arrow silver arrow is a male Canada silver arrow is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex View Post
But this isn't how the timeline works, otherwise the Sleeping Zelda would be literally first (that was the key meaning of the story as originally told), Link wouldn't have a hat in Skyward Sword, and Ganon would have gotten the full Triforce in OoT. (Because, guess what, LttP's story says he took it from the Sacred Realm... which isn't true in the DT either.) Clearly the timeline involves stories that go against what previous stories say, and the developers seem to want us to think this isn't a problem.

My problem's not that your position isn't a valid one, it's just that it's not reflective of how the timeline is stated and shown to work.
None of those things are opposite contradictions of main plot lines. They are plot holes sure, but they are explainable. Inconsistent in how the story played out, but ultimately with the same end. Real history can be similar. Not perfect, but we generally have a rough idea of how things went down. The first Zelda inconsistency is explained in HH.
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  #128 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-17-2012, 05:21 PM
Mack Mack is a male Canada Mack is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Alright... I will just let you guys fight then.
I'm rooting for Silver Arrow, I agree with him 100%.
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Last Edited by Mack; 02-18-2012 at 03:54 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #129 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 04:02 AM
Nagumo Nagumo is a female Netherlands Nagumo is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

The character designer of OoT confirmed that OoT was the Seal War right after the game's release , and that it was what the developers intented during the development. I agree that OoT isn't much like the ALttP backstory at all, but the game was still supposed to be the same event despite how contrived and unlogical that may be.
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  #130 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 07:00 AM
Kasuto Kasuto is a male Kasuto is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

OOT was simply meant to show what actually happened. The backstory for ALTTP didn't get all the details right.
That's still the case, considering that HH also contradicts the ALTTP backstory on several points.
This is what happens when you make new discoveries about history - Old information becomes outdated and is replaced with more accurate data.
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Last Edited by Kasuto; 02-18-2012 at 07:06 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #131 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 10:34 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
None of those things are opposite contradictions of main plot lines.
Yes they are. If there is a Zelda who is not the Sleeping Zelda, then the Sleeping Zelda is not the "first Zelda." This is a major plot line in Zelda II.

Quote:
The first Zelda inconsistency is explained in HH.
And the "Ganon didn't get the full Triforce" inconsistency is also explained in HH - in order to gain the full Triforce, Ganon killed Link and the sages sealed him.

But this leaves most of the inconsistencies, as now Ganon 1) still didn't gain the Triforce from the Sacred Realm; 2) still wasn't "unable to return to the Light World" upon entering the Sacred Realm as LttP reports; 3) still didn't "rediscover the Sacred Realm" in an era where the keepers of the knowledge of its location had lost that knowledge; 4) now also was sealed before the monsters started leaking out of the Sacred Realm and therefore not the enemy of the Imprisoning War.

It's really no better than leaving it a mystery as to how Ganon got the other two pieces (if Courage was left behind when Link traveled back in time as in TWW and we know Ganon got his hands on Zelda via Agahnim so getting Wisdom would have been no problem, there's nothing really saying it couldn't have happened - it was one of the many options by which they could have spelled it out in HH), aside from that now people can't say OoT isn't LttP's direct prequel anymore.
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  #132 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 10:36 AM
zeldafan1982 zeldafan1982 is a male Greece zeldafan1982 is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
OOT was simply meant to show what actually happened. The backstory for ALTTP didn't get all the details right.
In general I would agree that certain details can be distorted in the passage of time, but the fact that a hero was involved, logically shouldn't be one of them. Both TP and TWW reference a past hero for example. Also, we actually see that Ganon has the complete Triforce in ALttP whereas he was sealed with only one piece in OoT. And of course the problem with the maidens, all of them being Hylians.
Quote:
That's still the case, considering that HH also contradicts the ALTTP backstory on several points.
This is what happens when you make new discoveries about history - Old information becomes outdated and is replaced with more accurate data.
Or we can simply say that the ALttP manual has been retconned.

Most of the inconsistencies can be attributed to retcons, history being distorted as it is passed down, and the developers breaking the fourth wall.
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  #133 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 10:44 AM
The Baton of the Wind The Baton of the Wind is a male United States The Baton of the Wind is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
in ALttP whereas he was sealed with only one piece in OoT. And of course the problem with the maidens, all of them being Hylians.
But in HH, it says that Ganondorf got ahold of the entire Triforce after defeating Link.
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---Hyrule Historia Translations -Revisited, Reviewed & Revised - Japanese Text Included---


Skyward Sword *Japanese Text* --- Wind Waker *Japanese Text*

SS intro & Hylia's Prophecies.................Events on Prolo [Outset]
Zelda's Explanation of Events to Link...Link's Adventure through the 1st Encounter with Ganondorf
Ghirahim's Encounters with Link.........Hyrule King and the Sages' Awakening
Demise's Words......................................Final Encounter with Ganondorf
Fi's Farewell to Link...............................Hyrule King's Farewell to Link and Zelda
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  #134 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 10:44 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

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Originally Posted by zeldafan1982 View Post
And of course the problem with the maidens, all of them being Hylians.
Aonuma has said, though, that the lack of other races in the older games is an inconsistency but they don't want players to read it as such.
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  #135 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 11:02 AM
silver arrow silver arrow is a male Canada silver arrow is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Yes they are. If there is a Zelda who is not the Sleeping Zelda, then the Sleeping Zelda is not the "first Zelda." This is a major plot line in Zelda II.
Yes, but it has been revealed that she was actually only the first Zelda in the line of ALL princesses being named Zelda by law.

Quote:
And the "Ganon didn't get the full Triforce" inconsistency is also explained in HH - in order to gain the full Triforce, Ganon killed Link and the sages sealed him.
It's explained by making an AU timeline. A what if. That's different than history getting distorted over time like the others.

Quote:
But this leaves most of the inconsistencies, as now Ganon 1) still didn't gain the Triforce from the Sacred Realm; 2) still wasn't "unable to return to the Light World" upon entering the Sacred Realm as LttP reports; 3) still didn't "rediscover the Sacred Realm" in an era where the keepers of the knowledge of its location had lost that knowledge; 4) now also was sealed before the monsters started leaking out of the Sacred Realm and therefore not the enemy of the Imprisoning War.
1) The story says that he got it from the sacred realm. Evidently it was wrong. He got it and was then sealed in the SR. There are stories about how the Triforce is in the SR and how Ganon has it and is also in the SR, so it's not surprising that that story could get distorted over the generations.

Answer the rest later. Gotta go.
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  #136 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 11:22 AM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

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Originally Posted by silver arrow View Post
Yes, but it has been revealed that she was actually only the first Zelda in the line of ALL princesses being named Zelda by law.
And it has been revealed that Ganon actually got the full Triforce in a third ending to OoT.

Quote:
It's explained by making an AU timeline. A what if. That's different than history getting distorted over time like the others.
No, history is still distorted, since history reports that Ganon got his wish when he claimed the Triforce in the Sacred Realm.

Again, we didn't know how Ganon got the full Triforce between OoT and LttP, but now we know that it definitely did happen. That means it's no more an inconsistency than the Sleeping Zelda thing.
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  #137 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 11:37 AM
Kasuto Kasuto is a male Kasuto is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Back when OOT was the ALTTP backstory, my interpretation was that the "Knights of Hyrule" were in fact the Hero of Time - and I assumed that the other two parts of the Triforce eventually returned to the Sacred Realm. Also, the Maidens were spiritual descendants of the Sages, not blood relatives.
It worked just fine.
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Last Edited by Kasuto; 02-18-2012 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
  #138 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 12:39 PM
zeldafan1982 zeldafan1982 is a male Greece zeldafan1982 is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Quote:
But in HH, it says that Ganondorf got ahold of the entire Triforce after defeating Link.
Yes, HH fixed that.

Quote:
Aonuma has said, though, that the lack of other races in the older games is an inconsistency but they don't want players to read it as such.
He attributed the inconsistencies to the way the games are developed and mentioned the Mogmas as an example (which I don't think it is but anyway). Still, I think they tried to make a timeline as error-free as possible. That's why the SW is now a separate event following an alternative version of OoT. The ALttP manual has been retconned for good.

Quote:
Also, the Maidens were spiritual descendants of the Sages, not blood relatives.
Sageness being passed to different species it's a good idea, but according to TWW there has to be a relation between them :/ This is my only complain actually with HH. They should have made a better job to explain the transition between the OoT and the SW sages. They are smart I mean, they could have devoted some lines to do that! Unless we are to assume that it's an entirely separate group, similarly to OoT and TWW Link.. The problem then is that they are seven in number.
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  #139 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 12:45 PM
GrimmyV GrimmyV is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

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Originally Posted by Kasuto View Post
Back when OOT was the ALTTP backstory, my interpretation was that the "Knights of Hyrule" were in fact the Hero of Time - and I assumed that the other two parts of the Triforce eventually returned to the Sacred Realm. Also, the Maidens were spiritual descendants of the Sages, not blood relatives.
It worked just fine.
Nah, it never worked for me. It just seemed that the game designers wanted to make an awesome update of Zelda to 3d graphics and gameplay, and descided to use ALttP as a model, even going so far as attempting to portray the back story. Unfortunately the game ended up being far from the already rather detailed description of the SW from the SNES manual and more like a total reboot of the series. It just happens that every 5 year old with a N64 fell in love with the game at made it the best selling title that year.
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  #140 (permalink)   [ ]
Old 02-18-2012, 04:30 PM
silver arrow silver arrow is a male Canada silver arrow is offline
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Re: So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
And it has been revealed that Ganon actually got the full Triforce in a third ending to OoT.

No, history is still distorted, since history reports that Ganon got his wish when he claimed the Triforce in the Sacred Realm.
There is no third ending of OOT though. That's what I'm getting at. It's not merely distorted history, it's completely different history.

Quote:
Again, we didn't know how Ganon got the full Triforce between OoT and LttP, but now we know that it definitely did happen. That means it's no more an inconsistency than the Sleeping Zelda thing.
It's different. We know that he doesn't get the full triforce after OOT. Ever. We know that TWW and TP happen. In a what if timeline with a different history we know how he gets it before ALTTP. This is not distorted history like sleeping Zelda. It is different history.
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