So this "what if" scenario has been confirmed?

Originally Posted by silver arrow

There is no proof at all that he was defeated.

Like I said, it is all subjective.
I saw Link die, afterwhich I turned off my 3DS.
That is the proof I need. I saw him die.

Only proof that he won.

Like I said, that is subjective.

We see him win. Then we are told he lost prior to ALTTP. That means it's a what if.

The AT and CT are what if too, don't be biased.
And we see ALttP, which only occurs if HoT Link is defeated.

@silver arrow: So you are basically saying that the Zelda universe can't be a multiverse. Why not? It's an idea that has been exploited before. There's even an actual scientific theory about that as I mentioned before.

There is no proof at all that he was defeated. Only proof that he won. We see him win. Then we are told he lost prior to ALTTP. That means it's a what if.

It's not necessary that we witness an event to be considered real. Even if this was the case, then, well, you can get a "game-over" screen in-game.

Neither is the actual history. They're all just stories. OoT is a story based on the story told in LttP; TWW is based on the ending of OoT.

Yes, they are stories but they must have a degree of truth otherwise they wouldn't be included in a book entitled Hyrule Historia. Since the present it's the era of LoZ/AoL, FSA and ST for each branch respectively, previous events are essentially legends, stemming from actual events. It's not an accurate historical account, but the events described are not entirely fictitious either.

There's even an actual scientific theory about that as I mentioned before.

But, as I said, The Legend of Zelda is not scientific. Hence its original name "The Hyrule Fantasy."

The time lines are not presented as existing next to one another. They're presented as alternate endings that can suit different people's pallets. They leave the ending up to you, the time line you perceive as the most fitting ending.

Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper

Like I said, it is all subjective.
I saw Link die, afterwhich I turned off my 3DS.
That is the proof I need. I saw him die.

You saw you die. A gameplay mechanic.

The AT and CT are what if too, don't be biased.
And we see ALttP, which only occurs if HoT Link is defeated.

Of course both are what ifs to each other, but in the only OOT that exists and that we've played, Link wins, so the other is the what if version of OOT.

ALTTP doesn't need OOT Link to even exist. In fact, his existing just makes the story more convoluted. I certainly wouldn't say ALTTP could only happen if the HoT loses.

Originally Posted by zeldafan1982

@silver arrow: So you are basically saying that the Zelda universe can't be a multiverse. Why not? It's an idea that has been exploited before. There's even an actual scientific theory about that as I mentioned before.

No, I'm not saying it can't be a multiverse. You could definitely look at it like that. The two versions of OOT taking place in different universes. That's different from Link losing and winning at the same time though. That's two different versions of the same Link, one losing, and one winning, against two different versions of the same Ganon, and separated by incalculable distances of time and and 6th dimensional space. In other words, it's a what if, and it has no bearing on the other what if unless they do a multiverse event like Crisis on Infinite Earths.

It's not necessary that we witness an event to be considered real. Even if this was the case, then, well, you can get a "game-over" screen in-game.

You can, but that doesn't actually happen. The games have linear story. We witness how it unfolds. We witness Link defeat Ganon and not lose, thus he did not lose. Game overs are not part of the story. Just like saving and quitting isn't.

Ok, so it seems that everyone has mixed opinions, which keeps my theories alive for the time being.

My opinion has to be that it simply cannot be a "what if" because Nintendo is just too clever to make it so simple. They come up with things like time travel, and awesome puzzle solving scenarios, so why would they base one of the most important things in the series on something as simple as "what if". They can come up with something.

** Heh, this topic could be an interesting poll. **

But, as I said, The Legend of Zelda is not scientific.

I can agree to that. I'm not playing zelda to learn about scientific theories. That doesn't mean that the developers can't draw inspiration from some of them. They included three different forms of time-travel in OoT, which is not the most traditional fantasy concept..

No, I'm not saying it can't be a multiverse. You could definitely look at it like that. The two versions of OOT taking place in different universes. That's different from Link losing and winning at the same time though. That's two different versions of the same Link, one losing, and one winning, against two different versions of the same Ganon, and separated by incalculable distances of time and and 6th dimensional space.

Exactly! You could say that in a parallel universe Link didn't fight so well or Ganondorf was a little more cautious or both, and the outcome was different. After all, Link is fighting with a triforce-wielding Ganon so it's not something unrealistic story-wise.

In other words, it's a what if, and it has no bearing on the other what if unless they do a multiverse event like Crisis on Infinite Earths.

It is a "what-if" only for the AT Hyruleans. The way I see it, the book gives you a god-like view and you can see the other universe as well, the one that AT Link and we as we were playing the game originally didn't see..

Originally Posted by zeldafan1982

It is a "what-if" only for the AT Hyruleans. The way I see it, the book gives you a god-like view and you can see the other universe as well, the one that AT Link and we as we were playing the game originally didn't see..

They are what ifs to each other and do not fit together as a cohesive timeline is what I'm saying. All of the infinite possibilities that exist happen in a different universe within the same multiverse. All of these possibilities can be seen as what ifs outside of the universe they happen in. They still have no bearing on each other though.

The AT and CT are different in that events in the AT directly cause the CT to come into being via time travel. They can be cohesively fit together.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

You saw you die. A gameplay mechanic.

Point is, I still saw Link die.

ALTTP doesn't need OOT Link to even exist. In fact, his existing just makes the story more convoluted. I certainly wouldn't say ALTTP could only happen if the HoT loses.

And are we talking about your opinion again or are we refering to the actual timeline?

Because I'm talking about the actual timeline, not anyone's opinion.

Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper

And are we talking about your opinion again or are we refering to the actual timeline?

Because I'm talking about the actual timeline, not anyone's opinion.

The story of ALTTP does not need OOT to happen. OOT has almost nothing to do with ALTTP even taking its official placement into account. It only gives a convoluted explanation of how Ganon got into the SR before the SW.

I see Ganon lose so I know he loses. I see references to this in TWW so I know it takes place after. I see no references to any of this one way or the other in ALTTP, so I can't say that I know Link loses because ALTTP exists. I only know that he loses before ALTTP because HH told me that an alternate version of OOT's events where he loses take place before it.

In a literary sense, there was no reason to make ALTTP be after a what if version of OOT

Originally Posted by silver arrow

The story of ALTTP does not need OOT to happen. OOT has almost nothing to do with ALTTP even taking its official placement into account. It only gives a convoluted explanation of how Ganon got into the SR before the SW.

I see Ganon lose so I know he loses. I see references to this in TWW so I know it takes place after. I see no references to any of this one way or the other in ALTTP, so I can't say that I know Link loses because ALTTP exists. I only know that he loses before ALTTP because HH told me that an alternate version of OOT's events where he loses take place before it.

In a literary sense, there was no reason to make ALTTP be after a what if version of OOT

There was a very real reason. Miyamoto didn't want to be a liar, as he has said since OoT came out that it was the SW from ALttP. OoT's inconsistencies with the earlier game necessitated either a retcon of the earlier game wih OoT's events superseding, or ignoring certain events in OoT itself. There were other solutions, but I suppose they aren't readily appearant to most folks, even genius game designers.

Originally Posted by GrimmyV

There was a very real reason. Miyamoto didn't want to be a liar, as he has said since OoT came out that it was the SW from ALttP. OoT's inconsistencies with the earlier game necessitated either a retcon of the earlier game wih OoT's events superseding, or ignoring certain events in OoT itself. There were other solutions, but I suppose they aren't readily appearant to most folks, even genius game designers.

It's still not the SW though.

This is just arguing semantics. The DT can be a what-if if you want, but you can also think otherwise. It just depends on your point of view.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

It's still not the SW though.

I know, and so do the game designers. That's why HH has the SW as a seperate event occurring after the events of OoT. If only they didn't insist on ALttP taking place so close to OoT or even on the same timeline we wouldn't have the behind the scenes shenanigans depicted in the HH to explain how Ganon gets the whole TF.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

It's still not the SW though.

Sure it is. Its third ending resolves with the end of the Imprisoning War. They didn't need to actually come out and develop a third ending to show that it's so, certainly not one where Link is defeated, but that's what they did (I presume because the real adult ending is already firmly tied to TWW and it was clearer to just give another alternative). If they didn't want OoT to be the Imprisoning War, they didn't have to tie the Imprisoning War back to OoT's events at all.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

The story of ALTTP does not need OOT to happen. OOT has almost nothing to do with ALTTP even taking its official placement into account. It only gives a convoluted explanation of how Ganon got into the SR before the SW.

Again, are we talking your opinion, or theactual timeline? Because I'm talking the actual timline here and have been so for the past few comments.

You're saying Link doesn't need to fail for ALttP to come about, but you're speaking in "what could have been done to make it make sense" while we were talking about "what did [or more specifically] didn't happen to make ALttP happen"

We know it doesn't make sense. You've [an about eveyone else on this forum who can read] brought this to our attention the day the timeline wase released.

ALttP, in the official placement, ONLY happens as a result of HoT Link failing. It says it in the HH and to say otherwise is to try to state your opinion as fact. Stop it.

I see Ganon lose so I know he loses.

And like I've been saying, it's subjective.
You clearly want Link to win, therefore he will win.
I want ALttP, OoA and AoL to happen so Link is gonna die.

I see no references to any of this one way or the other in ALTTP, so I can't say that I know Link loses because ALTTP exists. I only know that he loses before ALTTP because HH told me that an alternate version of OOT's events where he loses take place before it.

Be that as it may, it doesn't detract from the fact.
Link winning causes theAT and the CT.
Link losing causes the DT.
Fact.

In a literary sense, there was no reason to make ALTTP be after a what if version of OOT

Again, we know you don't agree with it and are correct. It doesn't make sense. But that doesn't mean we're allowed to state our opinion s fact.

@ Everyone who believes in this "what if" nonsense.

Why are you only basing your assumptions on current knowledge? The Zelda series isn't done you know. Think ahead, and try and predict what NINTENDO will do, and not just your lone assumptions.

Originally Posted by Lex

Sure it is. Its third ending resolves with the end of the Imprisoning War. They didn't need to actually come out and develop a third ending to show that it's so, certainly not one where Link is defeated, but that's what they did (I presume because the real adult ending is already firmly tied to TWW and it was clearer to just give another alternative). If they didn't want OoT to be the Imprisoning War, they didn't have to tie the Imprisoning War back to OoT's events at all.

No it isn't. HH has the SW occurring long after the DT end of OOT. Ganon is sealed with the whole Triforce and a long time later, when the seal weakens, the SW happens.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

No it isn't. HH has the SW occurring long after the DT end of OOT. Ganon is sealed with the whole Triforce and a long time later, when the seal weakens, the SW happens.

Really, because I got the impression that the events leading to the Imprisoning War were triggered as a direct response to Ganondorf's sealing, which spread knowledge of the Sacred Realm's location around Hyrule. Nowhere is it reported how long afterwards the war took place (the peace is "short-lived"), although I'd presume by the fact that this section includes "the sages" in both events that they were pretty close to one another.

Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper

You're saying Link doesn't need to fail for ALttP to come about, but you're speaking in "what could have been done to make it make sense" while we were talking about "what did [or more specifically] didn't happen to make ALttP happen"

I was responding to an earlier comment you made where you stated that you see ALTTP and are thus seeing proof that Ganon won in OOT. The events of OOT are not even hinted at in ALTTP though so it's different from when I said "I see Link win, so I know he won".

ALttP, in the official placement, ONLY happens as a result of HoT Link failing. It says it in the HH and to say otherwise is to try to state your opinion as fact. Stop it.

When did I say differently? I merely said that you can't use ALTTP itself as proof of Link losing, because nothing in the game shows that that happened. Link won in OOT. This is fact. An alternate version of OOT where he loses happens before ALTTP.

And like I've been saying, it's subjective.
You clearly want Link to win, therefore he will win.
I want ALttP, OoA and AoL to happen so Link is gonna die.

It's not that I want him to win. It's that he did, in fact, win. In the future during ALTTP, the game OOT never happened. Similar events with a different result happened.

Be that as it may, it doesn't detract from the fact.
Link winning causes theAT and the CT.
Link losing causes the DT.
Fact.

True, but only one of those was OOT the game, because as we see, Link wins in the game.

Originally Posted by Lex

Really, because I got the impression that the events leading to the Imprisoning War were triggered as a direct response to Ganondorf's sealing, which spread knowledge of the Sacred Realm's location around Hyrule. Nowhere is it reported how long afterwards the war took place (the peace is "short-lived"), although I'd presume by the fact that this section includes "the sages" in both events that they were pretty close to one another.

Era: Many Years Later

There was a good deal of time where people looked for the realm before The SW started. The SW didn't start until after his miasma started leaking from the realm, when the King ordered the seal.

Originally Posted by silver arrow

Era: Many Years Later

How many years is "many years"? Moreover, it's hard to tell whether "many years later" refers to the time before the Imprisoning War, or the time before the Hylian blood thinned and Hyrule Kingdom became a distant legend.

There was a good deal of time where people looked for the realm before The SW started. The SW didn't start until after his miasma started leaking from the realm, when the King ordered the seal.

And how long did that take? HH doesn't say; it just says that the peace was "short-lived."