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Old 01-29-2012, 10:53 PM
Sanguiluna Sanguiluna is a male Guam Sanguiluna is offline
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Why Link needed to fail

OoT and SS both say that the Triforce will only allow itself to be mastered by one who possesses all three virtues of Power, Wisdom and Courage. Anyone who is imbalanced will only get the one he/she has most us, while the other two go to their destined holders.

Given that OoT came out several years after ALttP, it brought up a glaring plot hole that either no one realized, or that they just disregarded and attributed it to Nintendo's less-than-stellar reputation for narrative.

But when we remember how WW ended--with Ganon reuniting the Triforce only after extracting the two pieces from Link and Zelda--it becomes clear, that in order for Ganon to ever hold the unified Force as ALttP depicts, one thing had to happen: Link had to die. Because his courage and unbreakable spirit ensures that the only way Ganon could get the ToC would be from his cold, dead hand. Ganon can never just take the whole thing; it would break every time. Ganon's own personality ensures that there is no other way he could possess the Triforce, other than taking the other two pieces by force.

In retrospect, the Hero's failure had been foreshadowed for 13 years, ever since that final conversation with Sheik in the Temple of Time.
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Old 01-29-2012, 10:58 PM
Shadow of Majora Shadow of Majora is a male United States Shadow of Majora is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

No, Ganon extracted the other 2 parts of the triforce whil zelda and link were still alive and the only reason he did not get to use it was because the king of red lions put his hand on the newly formed triforce before ganon could.
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:51 PM
Sanguiluna Sanguiluna is a male Guam Sanguiluna is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Imagine that same scenario, only in a massive throne room and with no King of Red Lions to step in and save the day.

That's basically what happened in OoT.
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:59 PM
An Hero of Time An Hero of Time is a female United States An Hero of Time is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

So if this was "foreshadowed" for 13 years, why haven't we heard jack about it in developer interviews, quotes, official sites; etc? Let alone the major lack of in-game evidence of Link ever dying....
Last Edited by An Hero of Time; 01-30-2012 at 12:00 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:27 AM
eiyuu_004 eiyuu_004 is a male United States eiyuu_004 is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

What happens in OoT is what happens in OoT. Link defeats Ganon and Hyrule is saved... nowhere in the game does Link die (as far as the story is concerned)
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:56 AM
Sanguiluna Sanguiluna is a male Guam Sanguiluna is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Maybe I have a little TOO MUCH faith in Nintendo, but I don't think they would've added that "only one with balanced heart can take the Triforce otherwise it'll split" tidbit a mere two games after telling us "Oh yeah, and at one point in the history, Ganondorf gets the whole Triforce."

I mean, unless Link GAVE Ganondorf his Triforce piece and then walked away, is there really any other way of reconciling ALttP's backstory with OoT outside of Ganondorf beating the hell out of him and taking the other two pieces by force, outside of the "It's a plot hole" cop out?
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Last Edited by Sanguiluna; 01-30-2012 at 12:57 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 01-30-2012, 05:24 AM
Kasuto Kasuto is a male Kasuto is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

At the time, I figured that the Triforces of Wisdom and Courage returned to the Sacred Realm after the eventual deaths of Zelda and Link.
TWW and TP told us a different story, however, which made me believe that ALttP - and the Imprisoning War - took place sometime after TP. I had hoped that Nintendo would make a game to tie the loose ends between those two games together.
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Last Edited by Kasuto; 01-30-2012 at 05:26 AM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 01-30-2012, 10:07 AM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Quote:
Originally Posted by An Hero of Time View Post
So if this was "foreshadowed" for 13 years, why haven't we heard jack about it in developer interviews, quotes, official sites; etc? Let alone the major lack of in-game evidence of Link ever dying....
Because it wasn't thought of yet. That's the reason why there are River Zora and Sea Zora. Because the Zora was supposed to be a monster race. Then OoT came out and Nintendo changed their minds. It happens.

It wasn't foreshadowed, It wasn't able to be connected in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eiyuu_004 View Post
What happens in OoT is what happens in OoT. Link defeats Ganon and Hyrule is saved... nowhere in the game does Link die (as far as the story is concerned)
And ALttP is the result of Link dying and ALttP happens in game.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:49 PM
Kenziex123 Kenziex123 is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper View Post
And ALttP is the result of Link dying and ALttP happens in game.
ALttP is not the result of Link dying it's the result of Link failing.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:52 PM
SuperDecimal SuperDecimal is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

And here's me thinking it was just a cheap way in to shoehorn all the games Aonuma never worked on conveniently!

Thanks for letting me know!
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Old 01-31-2012, 01:13 AM
Kasuto Kasuto is a male Kasuto is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Could it be that Aonuma's ego is so big that he doesn't care for the games that he wasn't involved in? He never did beat TLoZ, after all - he might be holding a grudge against Miyamoto
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Old 01-31-2012, 03:01 AM
Ganty Ganty is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasuto View Post
Could it be that Aonuma's ego is so big that he doesn't care for the games that he wasn't involved in? He never did beat TLoZ, after all - he might be holding a grudge against Miyamoto
I heard that he likes ALTTP.
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Old 01-31-2012, 07:40 AM
Three Pendants Three Pendants is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Considering that his epilogue message seems to be Hero-Worship of Miyamoto, I somewhat doubt that he would hold a grudge against him. ALttP/OOA/OOS/LA all made sense to follow more or less consistently. And in that vein of thought it then makes further sense to put the first two games at the end of that Timeline. It explains why the Master Sword (aside from a likely non-canon cameo in OOA/OOS) never had reason to be drawn again and was instead replaced by the Magic Sword in LoZ and AoL.

Aonuma and Miyamoto had never said that the first few games took place on either the Adult or Child Timeline, never really hinted at it.

If you want to get technical there Was almost another game on the Downfall Timeline, with FSA, if Aonuma had his way that would have been the Imprisoning War, but Miyamoto clearly said he did not want that, so the idea was dropped.

The closest hint we had received that the first two games *might* have been on the AT was that AoL's world has a lot of water in it and a fairly large ?ocean? separating Eastern and Western Hyrule. However that wouldn't work anymore with the New Hyrule they set up. I believe that theory was most prevalent during the "Great Deku Tree's Success" theory days, where he hinted that he would raise old Hyrule up from the water over the course of time.
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:17 AM
Kasuto Kasuto is a male Kasuto is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Sometimes, people make jokes on discussion boards. Believe it or not.

I know that Aonuma has expressed a desire to someday remake ALttP - providing he could do it without taking away from what that game meant for the fans when it was originally released (or something to that effect).
Allegedly, Miyamoto himself would prefer to see ALttP be the next title to receive a 3D makeover on the 3DS, while Aonuma is leaning towards MM.
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:00 AM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenziex123 View Post
ALttP is not the result of Link dying it's the result of Link failing.
Yes, because an all powerful psychopathic murderer is going to let the only person who can kill him live.

Immense character stupidity.

The only way Link wouldn't reclaim it is if he was dead.
Link would continue to fight Ganon until he won.
That is Link's personality.

To say otherwise is to call Link a pussy. A tree asked a 9 year old orphan to shoulder the fate of the world, which he accepted with no exceptions. And you're going to argue semantics of whether Link was just beaten and he went home afterwards, or he died, despite his personality?

Link got the ToC for a reason. He wouldn't quit after one try. Because that's not courageous.
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Old 01-31-2012, 01:54 PM
The Baton of the Wind The Baton of the Wind is a male United States The Baton of the Wind is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

When OoT was first made, the hero of time didn't fail. The Seal War was Link and the sages sealing Ganon together... until Aonuma had part in Wind Waker and "rewrote history."

And with Wind Waker replacing the spot in which the classic games took place, they needed somewhere to put the classic games just to get them out of the way; while keeping them as a part of the chronology. And since they couldn't take place in the past because of the context, their only recourse was to kill Link off.
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Skyward Sword *Japanese Text* --- Wind Waker *Japanese Text*

SS intro & Hylia's Prophecies.................Events on Prolo [Outset]
Zelda's Explanation of Events to Link...Link's Adventure through the 1st Encounter with Ganondorf
Ghirahim's Encounters with Link.........Hyrule King and the Sages' Awakening
Demise's Words......................................Final Encounter with Ganondorf
Fi's Farewell to Link...............................Hyrule King's Farewell to Link and Zelda
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:10 PM
keyaki keyaki is a male keyaki is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Quote:
If you want to get technical there Was almost another game on the Downfall Timeline, with FSA, if Aonuma had his way that would have been the Imprisoning War, but Miyamoto clearly said he did not want that, so the idea was dropped.
Though, that made me think of something.

When OoT came out, they did say their intention was to have it as the Imprisoning War.

If the original intent of FSA was to be the Imprisoning War, why do it in the first place with OoT already taking that role, that's probably the reason by the "Tea-Table Event", but why even have that in the first place?

Quote:
they needed somewhere to put the classic games just to get them out of the way; while keeping them as a part of the chronology. And since they couldn't take place in the past because of the context, their only recourse was to kill Link off.
Seems like the main reason to me as well.
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Old 01-31-2012, 06:35 PM
Kenziex123 Kenziex123 is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper View Post
Yes, because an all powerful psychopathic murderer is going to let the only person who can kill him live.

Immense character stupidity.

The only way Link wouldn't reclaim it is if he was dead.
Link would continue to fight Ganon until he won.
That is Link's personality.

To say otherwise is to call Link a pussy. A tree asked a 9 year old orphan to shoulder the fate of the world, which he accepted with no exceptions. And you're going to argue semantics of whether Link was just beaten and he went home afterwards, or he died, despite his personality?

Link got the ToC for a reason. He wouldn't quit after one try. Because that's not courageous.
I agree with you 100%, but obviously you thought I meant something else. I only meant that he fails because of the will of someone else, I never meant that he chickened out, or Ganon lets him live...

In the Hyrule Historia it only states that he fails or is defeated, after reading this most people would automatically assume that he dies. The definition of defeat never mentions the word "death". If a timeline were to be made based on Link's death in OoT, then why not ALL of the other games? Timelines would constantly be created based on the event that a Hero dies, resulting in a big time paradox.

I know most people think this is just a "what if" scenario but, I honestly do not think that this is Nintendo's intention to throw a bunch of important games in a "what if" pile. Also I really don't believe that a hero that was destined to succeed could have been killed. Destiny is almost impossible to defeat. Therefore I believe something supernatural is going to happen to him in the events of a future game, possibly involving the Triforce's capabilities. My theory is that a certain someone, in a game that takes place later in time, attempts to change the events of the past. This would create the timeline and prevent the creation the time paradox, since it is only happening specifically to OoT.

There are many possibilities how Link could fail without dying that would make sense, but I will never ever believe that he gives up. Most likely he dies, but it is not confirmed.
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:03 PM
Cayenne Pepper Cayenne Pepper is a female United States Cayenne Pepper is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

And my point is if Link isn't dead, that's immense character stupidity.
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:39 PM
DaronB DaronB is a male United States DaronB is offline
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Re: Why Link needed to fail

Quote:
Originally Posted by eiyuu_004 View Post
What happens in OoT is what happens in OoT. Link defeats Ganon and Hyrule is saved... nowhere in the game does Link die (as far as the story is concerned)
Which is why there was no need for the third timeline......
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