OoT Time Travelling and Navi's fate

This is all that matters when it comes to explaining what happened in Ocarina of Time in my opinion. When I played through Ocarina of Time, being one of my favorite experiences with the OoT for N64 and it's remakes, I decided to put a few pieces together and expose a few oddities and mysteries in the game.

This debate was written with the help of another person, because my grammer is not that good of a writer myself. A lot of this is speculation, and tries to contradict the events that happen in Ocarina of Time. Please enjoy.

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Main Point - Traveling back in time undoes everything that Link has done in the future.

When Young Link pulls the Master Sword out of the Pedestal of Time, his spirit gets sealed and he grows approx. seven years older, as which he is able to wield the Master Sword and be given the title of "Hero of Time". To an extent, this would assume that Link has just turned the new age (17, assuming he was 10 as Young Link), implying the day he recieved the Master Sword was his birthday.

Supporting:
-It is also evident in the game that Link must travel back seven years to remove a few obstacles that barred his progress in the future, such as gaining the Lens of Truth or going to the Spirit Temple for the Silver Gauntlets. When Link grabs the sword and goes into the future again, he doesn't travel back to his 17th birthday but rather at the point when he returned the Master Sword in the future. In accordance to why he was sent into the future in the first place, this doesn't make sense. He supposed to be sent to the exact point of his 17th birthday when he was able to use the Master Sword.

-Sealing Ganondorf away seven years into the future and then going back in time seven years, automatically implies that Ganondorf hasn't been sealed yet because he's supposed to be sealed seven years into the future. You can't say that sealing him away in the future also seals him away in the past/present. It's also worthy of note to ask why Link prefers at the end of the game to go back seven years into his younger form rather than staying an adult.

Conclusion:
So far we've come up with a scenario that solves all of these contradictions and still seems highly likely. It's possible that the future was nothing more than a vision to the younger Link. Being a vision, the events of the future obviously never happened, except in Link's mind. The vision acts as more of a guideline of the events that will happen seven years into the future, beginning with his 17th birthday. If this is the case, it wouldn't be unnatural for Link to forsee obstacles that would block him in the future, and deal with it in the present. This theory also assumes the present Ganondorf is still at large and running amok in Hyrule until his defeat seven years later.

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Main Point - Navi returns and remains with Link in seven years. (What happened to Navi)

The highly debated departure of Navi at the end of the game, in tandem with the events of Majoras Mask (the direct sequel to Ocarina of Time), brings up a lot of controversy. The scene itself depicts young Link standing in front of the Pedestal of Time and exchanges glances with Navi before she dismisses herself by flying out a nearby window.

Supporting:
-First off, it is impossible to determine Navi actually left young Link at that point, even though Link is looking for a "special friend" throughout the course of Majora's Mask. There is no further evidence in Ocarina of Time to suggest that Navi is "gone". The only real proof would have been if Navi specifically told Link she was going away in front of the player, instead she quietly left the presense of Link. It is possible that Navi flying through the window was just used for visual effect. Most importantly, Navi can't fly through windows and that window was unusually bright, in which case it might more epic for the viewer for Navi to gravitate towards the window.

-Not even the final scene with Zelda, where Navi is missing from the picture, is proof enough that Navi left Link at the Temple of Time. Last time the player heard of Zelda was when she was galloping away from Hyrule Castle Town being pursued by Ganondorf, when she hurled the Ocarina of Time at young Link. The next time the player supposedly hears from Zelda is seven years later when she sheds her Shiek disguise. There is no reason for Zelda to be back in that castle staring through that same window. I guess this scene is there under the impression that Ganondorf had already been subdued by Link seven years into the future, but I've pointed out why that's unlikely.

-Under the events of Majoras Mask, Link is looking for a "special friend" which many assume to be Navi based on the text and Navi's signature chime. If this assumption is true, then Navi did leave young Link at some point between the Temple of Time incident and the beginning of Majora's Mask.

Conclusion:
At some point, Navi did leave Link for a specific reason and Link was supposed to look for her, end up in Temina, and thus dissapear from Hyrule for a period of around seven years while Ganondorf did his thing and no one heard of Link since then. At some point between the ending of Majora's Mask and the time Link turns into his 17th birthday, Link and Navi meet eachother and are reunited. At the time of Link's 17th birthday, he along with Navi returns to Hyrule to fulfill his vision to finish his buisness taking care of Ganondorf. I cannot explain, save for the three days of Majora's Mask, what happened to Link or Navi or what they were doing for this seven year period where they are absent from Hyrule. It is never hinted that Navi left adult Link, because Link's vision of the future ended when he returned the Master Sword to it's pedestal.

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This theory does not cover why Navi left or what happened during Link's seven year absence from Hyrule, or the events following the true pulling of the Master Sword when Link knows what he's supposed to be doing.

But I am very sure that young Link was the one that went into Majora's Mask after losing the company of Navi, and it was adult Link that defeated Ganondorf in OoT within the presense of Navi. Hopefully this article made sense.

Take a moment to comprehend all you have read, and consider it's possibility.
I am ready and prepared to debate the accuracy of my claims. Discuss if you wish.

Nice theory and welcome to ZU!

But there is a flaw. What was the point of Link going seven years into the future if he was going to do that after the events of MM anyway? I'm pretty sure that he warned the King about Ganon's evil plans before he left Hyrule. Aonuma said this himself.

Zelda is staring through the window again because Adult Zelda sent Link back in time before they met. That's when Link warned the King.

EA didn't say Link warned the King. He said Link and Zelda had a conversation and that their relationship with Ganon changed from what it was originally, leading to the events in TP.

I'm not sure if the OP is taking the Split Timeline into account.

Anyway, Navi obviously flies off at the end of OoT in order to kill the past duplicates of Link and Navi in order to avoid paradox. Fairy assasins should never be underestimated. Belief or disbelief is up to you.

Thank you very much, Cereal Bawks. ^^

Originally Posted by Cereal Bawks

But there is a flaw. What was the point of Link going seven years into the future if he was going to do that after the events of MM anyway?

I believe going into the future seven years was more or less the result of pulling out the Master Sword. My theory claims that what the future Link went through was no more than a vision, meaning that it didn't really happen. Link didn't have much of a choice concerning the pulling of the Master Sword because Zelda asked him to play the Song of Time in front of the Altar of Time in a vision after aquiring the Ocarina of Time. It's obvious she wanted him to pull the Master Sword in order to protect the Triforce. However, it appears that no one could have anticipated that Link would have travelled seven years into the future after pulling the sword, which makes me believe going into the future was unintentional. Once Link realized he was in the future, it's likely that he really just rolled with the punches.

I'm pretty sure that he warned the King about Ganon's evil plans before he left Hyrule. Aonuma said this himself.

There are two reasons my theory doesn't support this idea fully:
The first being that Ganondorf had already attacked the castle, made evident by the fact that Zelda and Impa were fleeing the castle town.Secondly, it wouldn't do him any good, because even if Link warned the King, the outcome would remain constant because Link already knows the future to an extent, and it's likely that future reflects the king already knowing about Ganondorfs evil plans.

It could be argued that Link is trying to change the future, but it seems unlikely due to the fact he will defeat Ganondorf in the future and changing anything would jeopardize his future outcome.

Zelda is staring through the window again because Adult Zelda sent Link back in time before they met. That's when Link warned the King.

This completely undermines the order of events before Link pulled the Master Sword, there is one fact that allows me to claim this: at the end of the game, Link steps away from the Master Sword and leaves the Temple of Time. Apparently, Link's next destination is the meeting with Zelda. This is an impossibility, because Link pulled the Master Sword after retrieving the Ocarina of Time which occured after said meeting. If he was warped to a time before meeting Zelda, it would simultaneously be a time before pulling the Master Sword. There was no way Link could have gotten into the Temple of Time before meeting with Zelda at least once.

First of all, do you know about the split timeline?

Second of all, whatever Link did to stop Ganon would not lead to the same outcome as when he was an adult. When he went to the future, he was trapped in the Sacred Realm for seven years, therefore did not warn anyone. The reason why Ganon took control of Hyrule was because no on stopped him.

Originally Posted by shyan

I believe going into the future seven years was more or less the result of pulling out the Master Sword. My theory claims that what the future Link went through was no more than a vision, meaning that it didn't really happen.

That would mean that WW, PH ans ST don't happen.

There are two reasons my theory doesn't support this idea fully:
The first being that Ganondorf had already attacked the castle, made evident by the fact that Zelda and Impa were fleeing the castle town. Secondly, it wouldn't do him any good, because even if Link warned the King, the outcome would remain constant because Link already knows the future to an extent, and it's likely that future reflects the king already knowing about Ganondorfs evil plans.

Ganon was able to get the Triforce in the first place because Link went into the Sacred Realm. The result was the AT.

Link came back, he didn't open the DoT, so Ganondorf wasn't able to get the ToP. And since Link warned the king, Hyrule was ready for his invasion.

Great Deku Tree: "Ganondorf is planning to conquer Hyrule."

Link: "I'll go warnt the king!"

Great Deku Tree: "No. That would be far too productive."

<LATER THAT DAY>

Zelda: "My father thinks Ganondorf wants peace."

Link: "Have you tried warning him?"

Zelda: "Yes, but he won't listen."

Link: "Can I try warning him?"

Zelda: "Why the hell would that work?"

<ONE ADVENTURE LATER>

Zelda: "You know what, maybe you should just warn my father after all."

Link: "Yes... *twitch*... I'll do that."

---

I always thought that Link just let events play out the way they were supposed to since Ganondorf's plan didn't work without Link and Zelda screwing everything up. At most, he could attack Hyrule with his army of loyal and brainwashed Gerudo, which is what he ended up doing.

If he did warn the king then Ganondorf likely would have been stabbed through the back of the chest the next time he bowed to King Hyrule.

Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper

Link came back, he didn't open the DoT, so Ganondorf wasn't able to get the ToP. And since Link warned the king, Hyrule was ready for his invasion.

Actually, Ganondorf still ended up with it, he just wasn't aware of it.



Because Link never gave up the Triforce of Courage before going back in time he was still supposed to have it when he got there so the Triforce split in order to give it to him and the remaining two pieces sought out those that best represented their qualities. Wisdom went to Zelda (for reasons I still don't understand) and Power went to Ganondorf.

Seriously, everything involving Ganondorf on both timelines is OoT Zelda's fault.

Originally Posted by Volcan

Great Deku Tree: "Ganondorf is planning to conquer Hyrule."

Link: "I'll go warnt the king!"

Great Deku Tree: "No. That would be far too productive."

<LATER THAT DAY>

Zelda: "My father thinks Ganondorf wants peace."

Link: "Have you tried warning him?"

Zelda: "Yes, but he won't listen."

Link: "Can I try warning him?"

Zelda: "Why the hell would that work?"

<ONE ADVENTURE LATER>

Zelda: "You know what, maybe you should just warn my father after all."

Link: "Yes... *twitch*... I'll do that."

lol epic.

Actually, Ganondorf still ended up with it, he just wasn't aware of it.

I was saying he didn't make it to the SR on the CT and took it. He was tried before his followers could get there.

Seriously, everything involving Ganondorf on both timelines is OoT Zelda's fault.

Jup.

Originally Posted by Cereal Bawks

First of all, do you know about the split timeline?

This split timeline is under the assumtion that Link is sent even farther back in time before he met Zelda in a parallel universe. The point of the parallel universe is so that Link could go to Zelda to warn the king about Ganondorf's invasion. It's a possible outcome but it does come with a handful of questions.

Number one being how Link got out of the Temple of Time being sent to a time before the Door of Time was openned, he obviously could not have still had the Ocarina of Time since he gave it to the Zelda of the future. It would create a paradox if Link still posessed the Ocarina of Time, because if it's a parallel universe, Zelda should also have her Ocarina of Time. It's obvious that Zelda would not have openned the Door of Time, since Link snuck up on her in the Castle, unless quite humorously, Navi went out the Window to open the door somehow.

Number two being I believe there cannot be two seperate timelines as proven by the events of Majora's Mask. Whenever Link gets sent back via the Song of Time, all forward progress he made is undone. So the future Zelda in that timeline would have vanished and never existed yet if we are to believe that travelling back in time doesn't also create parallel universes every time Link plays the Song of Time in Majora's Mask.

A final statement being that Link still posessed the Ocarina of Time at the beginning of Majora's Mask, but it was stolen by Skull Kid. If the future hasn't happened yet, Link would still carry the Ocarina of Time instead of giving it to adult Zelda seven years into the future. I believe that that the events following the first pulling of the Master Sword was a vision, because young Link before the vision still carried the Ocarina of Time and took it into Majora's Mask. It could be argued that young Zelda simply gave her Ocarina of Time to young Link in the parallel universe, but that's unlikely because there's no more reason to have the Ocarina of Time after Ganondorf would have been defeated.

Second of all, whatever Link did to stop Ganon would not lead to the same outcome as when he was an adult. When he went to the future, he was trapped in the Sacred Realm for seven years, therefore did not warn anyone. The reason why Ganon took control of Hyrule was because no on stopped him.

I can't directly disprove this with evidence, but I can ask a few questions.

When future Link returns the sword to the Pedestal of Time, why does he travel seven years back to the point he originally pulled it out? Furthermore, it is evident at this point that Link is aware of the future and yet he waits until the end of the game to actually change the timeline by warning the King. I'm aware that Ganondorf already attacked the castle and the damage had already been done (even though the "guards" are still patrolling and won't let you in the castle), this is apparently because returning the Master Sword doesn't send Link far back enough where playing the song of time does, in fact sending you to any point back in time. Makes me wonder why the Song of Time wasn't used to send Link farther back in time until Zelda played it for him for that purpose. Did she need the power of all the sages? Of course then, why was Link able to play that song for that purpose in Majora's Mask at will?

On a different tangent, after returning the Master Sword as the older Link, Link would be aware that pulling the Master Sword again would trap him again for seven years; knowing this, he would rather pull the Master Sword than try to stop Ganondorf in this timeline, find Zelda again, or even rally the aforementioned "guards".

Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper

That would mean that WW, PH ans ST don't happen.

Toon Link does not equal young Link. Young Link did not go a boat adventure, or did he control the ghost of toon Zelda. They are two different Link's in two seperate Hyrule universes.

There is no proof for or against the Triforce being split or not under the Split Universe theory, but the vision theory will still support the Triforce being split due to the fact it assumes Ganondorf still goes with his plans in the present. There is a good reason why young Link simply allows Ganondorf to run wild after he knows what's going to happen in seven years, because young Link is incapable of wielding the Master Sword which is the reason he was first sent to the Temple of Time by Zelda in the first place. It's highly unlikely that all the king's horses and all the king's men wouldn't stop Ganondorf's invasion, because he's too awesome to be stopped by anything short of the Master Sword along with Seven Sages, which wouldn't happen until seven years into the future when Link could legally pull the Master Sword.

Originally Posted by shyan

Number one being how Link got out of the Temple of Time being sent to a time before the Door of Time was openned, he obviously could not have still had the Ocarina of Time since he gave it to the Zelda of the future. It would create a paradox if Link still posessed the Ocarina of Time, because if it's a parallel universe, Zelda should also have her Ocarina of Time. It's obvious that Zelda would not have openned the Door of Time, since Link snuck up on her in the Castle, unless quite humorously, Navi went out the Window to open the door somehow.

I get what you're saying. Maybe Zelda sent Link back in time right before Ganon invaded the castle?

Number two being I believe there cannot be two seperate timelines as proven by the events of Majora's Mask.

MM basically proves that there IS a split timeline. TWW comes after the adult ending of OoT because it says that OoT Link never came back. Why? Because he was sent back to his childhood. This means that MM HAS to happen in a different timeline. If there is just a linear timeline, TWW wouldn't make sense. Why would Link be missing when Ganon came back?

A final statement being that Link still posessed the Ocarina of Time at the beginning of Majora's Mask, but it was stolen by Skull Kid. If the future hasn't happened yet, Link would still carry the Ocarina of Time instead of giving it to adult Zelda seven years into the future. I believe that that the events following the first pulling of the Master Sword was a vision, because young Link before the vision still carried the Ocarina of Time and took it into Majora's Mask. It could be argued that young Zelda simply gave her Ocarina of Time to young Link in the parallel universe, but that's unlikely because there's no more reason to have the Ocarina of Time after Ganondorf would have been defeated.

Zelda did probably give him the OoT before MM. It's probably just so Link could remember Zelda.

On a different tangent, after returning the Master Sword as the older Link, Link would be aware that pulling the Master Sword again would trap him again for seven years; knowing this, he would rather pull the Master Sword than try to stop Ganondorf in this timeline, find Zelda again, or even rally the aforementioned "guards".

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I don't see what your point is here.

Toon Link does not equal young Link. Young Link did not go a boat adventure, or did he control the ghost of toon Zelda. They are two different Link's in two seperate Hyrule universes.

No he does not equal Young Link. That's not what he was trying to say. He meant that TWW, PH, and ST wouldn't happen because it occured on the Adult Timeline. However, you claim that Link going into the future is just a visions, therefore the whole Adult Timeline did not happen. This means TWW, PH, and ST isn't real.

Originally Posted by Cereal Bawks

MM basically proves that there IS a split timeline. TWW comes after the adult ending of OoT because it says that OoT Link never came back. Why? Because he was sent back to his childhood. This means that MM HAS to happen in a different timeline. If there is just a linear timeline, TWW wouldn't make sense. Why would Link be missing when Ganon came back?

I haven't played Wind Waker although I'm under the impression that they don't exist on the same universe, unless a solid Link is provided that connects these games or proof that young Link and toon Link are the same person. In my opinion, the Toon Link universe is seperate of the Link "Hero of Time" universe.

Zelda did probably give him the OoT before MM. It's probably just so Link could remember Zelda.

There is no proof either way, so we'll have to leave this point as is.

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I don't see what your point is here.

I'll make it a little more clearer. When adult Link returns the Master Sword, he returns back seven years into the past and becomes a child again. The difference between now and when he first pulled the Master Sword is that now he is aware that pulling the sword would trap him in the Sacred Realm for seven years. I wanted to point out that this whole trapping buisness was the single unaccounted for variable when Zelda sent him to retrieve the Master Sword; she states this herself. But now that Link is aware of being trapped after pulling the sword as young Link, he has the luxury of being able to choose between pulling the sword and stopping Ganondorf in the past. Instead of fixing the past/present now, he decides to pull the sword again to get trapped again... go into the future... fix the future... only to be sent back in time again... to fix the past/present. Hopefully, this was a little more understandable.

No he does not equal Young Link. That's not what he was trying to say. He meant that TWW, PH, and ST wouldn't happen because it occured on the Adult Timeline. However, you claim that Link going into the future is just a visions, therefore the whole Adult Timeline did not happen. This means TWW, PH, and ST isn't real.

I believe these games are very real, but this is an example of a different universe. Take Twilight Princess for example, Link existed as the spirit of the hero. Also, there is something very compelling in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, the codex taunt on Toon Link indicates that the spirit of the hero comes in all shapes and sizes and existed in different people in different eras. While I realize that SSBB isn't canon by any means, I do believe it sheds some insight about the different Link's and how they are different people in different universes.

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One thing I've been curious about concerning Navi and time travel: why does she also travel with Link seven years into the future? Travelling to the future was a result of Link's spirit being locked away from pulling the Master Sword at too young of an age to be considered the "Hero of Time". Navi, on the other hand, has nothing to do with Link or the Master Sword. The only fathomable explination was that she was in the "Blue Circle of Ascension" after young Link pulled the sword. Of course, if we were going under the Vision theory, Navi supposedly meets up with Link seven years later when he can legitimately pull the Master Sword, which is reflected in the vision.

In an attempt to put this to bed:

Question: When does Twilight Princess take place?
Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.
Question: And the Wind Waker?
Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

This states TWW was parrallel to TP, and that TP takes place after the Child Ending of OoT where Link and Zelda have a little pow wow. After this talk events concerning Ganon turn out very differently than in OoT and this leads to Ganon being executed for something he had not even done yet.

We also know the events of OoT still occur somewhere, or somewhen, because TWW directly references them, and OoT shows the peoples of Hyrule celebrating after Ganon's defeat.

The split has happened, for better or worse.

Also, Link's time travelling in MM occurs thanks to the Goddess of Time's divine intervention. It's pretty obvious that MM's time travel opperates under different rules than OoT's travel (even the last example when Zelda played the OoT to send Link back).

I'm pretty sure this debate will just go on and on no matter what I say, however.

Originally Posted by shyan

Number one being how Link got out of the Temple of Time being sent to a time before the Door of Time was openned, he obviously could not have still had the Ocarina of Time since he gave it to the Zelda of the future. It would create a paradox if Link still posessed the Ocarina of Time, because if it's a parallel universe, Zelda should also have her Ocarina of Time. It's obvious that Zelda would not have openned the Door of Time, since Link snuck up on her in the Castle, unless quite humorously, Navi went out the Window to open the door somehow.

Maybe the Door of Time can be opened from the inside?

Originally Posted by shyan

Number two being I believe there cannot be two seperate timelines as proven by the events of Majora's Mask. Whenever Link gets sent back via the Song of Time, all forward progress he made is undone. So the future Zelda in that timeline would have vanished and never existed yet if we are to believe that travelling back in time doesn't also create parallel universes every time Link plays the Song of Time in Majora's Mask.

It doesnt prove anything. Link leaves the time to return 3days. The future he left doesn't end because he left, but because he is not there to stop the moon from falling down. OR The song of time doesnt actually send him back but reverses everything...which is my favorite theory.
The way Zelda sent Link back in OoT doesn't have to be the same way link is returning to the 1st day in MM.

Originally Posted by shyan

A final statement being that Link still posessed the Ocarina of Time at the beginning of Majora's Mask, but it was stolen by Skull Kid. If the future hasn't happened yet, Link would still carry the Ocarina of Time instead of giving it to adult Zelda seven years into the future. I believe that that the events following the first pulling of the Master Sword was a vision, because young Link before the vision still carried the Ocarina of Time and took it into Majora's Mask. It could be argued that young Zelda simply gave her Ocarina of Time to young Link in the parallel universe, but that's unlikely because there's no more reason to have the Ocarina of Time after Ganondorf would have been defeated

Maybe she thought it would be good for him to have since he is going on a journey to find a precious friend...

Originally Posted by shyan

Toon Link does not equal young Link. Young Link did not go a boat adventure, or did he control the ghost of toon Zelda. They are two different Link's in two seperate Hyrule universes.

Of course not, but it was confirmed that Wind Waker and the other two games play some hundred or more years after OoT in the Adult Timeline. While Twilight Princess takes place a hundred years after OoT in the Child Timeline.

Originally Posted by GrimmyV

This states TWW was parrallel to TP, and that TP takes place after the Child Ending of OoT where Link and Zelda have a little pow wow. After this talk events concerning Ganon turn out very differently than in OoT and this leads to Ganon being executed for something he had not even done yet.

There is a chance that Arbiter's Ground existed in Ocarina of Time, and used as the area where Ganondorf was supposedly executed and locked away in the Twilight Realm after young Link warned the king in the split timeline theory. I can't really disprove this until we have evidence on the time when Ganondorf was executed. If it happened anywhere between the seven years of Ocarina of Time, it would obviously prove Link's vision false. If it happened after the seven year period, it's possible that both the events of the vision and the execution could have happened, strengthened by the fact Ganondorf will return when locked away in the Sacred Realm.

If he was executed for something he had not done yet, than why is Hyrule in TP completely different than the Hyrule in OoT? The point I'm trying to prove was Hyrule was rebuilt after being destroyed by Ganondorf on the adult Link timeline in OoT, supposedly by Link and Zelda. If Ganondorf was executed for something he had never done yet, he would not have been able to destroy Hyrule, and there would be no reason for many of the locations to change. While they may have remodelled a few locations in OoT over the course of a hundered years, I really can't see them moving Hyrule castle a good football fields length closer to Hyrule Castle Town. Whearas Hyrule Castle would have had to been rebuilt as Ganondorf/Hyrule Castle literally collapsed on itself in OoT.

We also know the events of OoT still occur somewhere, or somewhen, because TWW directly references them, and OoT shows the peoples of Hyrule celebrating after Ganon's defeat.

I think they just needed to show something during the ending credits. The vision would have already ended when Zelda played the Song of Time for Link in the clouds, and that happened before the credits. It's obviously we're not looking through Link's eyes as the people are celebrating.

Also, Link's time travelling in MM occurs thanks to the Goddess of Time's divine intervention. It's pretty obvious that MM's time travel opperates under different rules than OoT's travel (even the last example when Zelda played the OoT to send Link back).

According to Link's flashback with Princess Zelda in Majora's Mask, he learns the song of time again. During the flashback, Zelda specifically mentions the Goddess of Time, implying that the Goddess of Time existed in Hyrule in Ocarina of Time. That can only mean one thing: The Goddess chooses when she decides to help Link or not when he plays the Song of Time. Every time Link played this song in OoT, the Goddess chose not to help him with his time travelling needs; but every time he played the song in MM, she did.

I'm pretty sure this debate will just go on and on no matter what I say, however.

I apologize for the length of the debate.

Originally Posted by Kamina

Maybe the Door of Time can be opened from the inside?

With what? We'll need some additional evidence to prove there is an alternate way to open the Door of Time.

Of course not, but it was confirmed that Wind Waker and the other two games play some hundred or more years after OoT in the Adult Timeline. While Twilight Princess takes place a hundred years after OoT in the Child Timeline.

Our vision theory does nothing to address how both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess occur simultaneously. At the very best explination I can provide assuming WW happens in the same Hyrule universe as OoT, Twilight Princess happened some time after WW and between that point, the Great Sea receded. That's the very best explination I can provide assuming both happened on the same timeline.

However, in my defense, Wind Waker I believe occurs in an entirely seperate universe with a seperate Hero of Time that was never connected in any way to the Hero of Time of the OoT Hyrule universe. Instead of being a Split timeline, they are two seperate timelines that aren't related to eachother. For example, "Toon" Link is not equal to "Human" Link in the same way that "Paper" Mario is not equal to "Human" Mario. Their art styles may be different, but doesn't mean that they didn't have similar methods of dealing with the immediate problem. I'm pushing the idea that a "Toon" Link defeated Ganondorf a hundred years before the events of WW in a similar fashion that human Link dealt with Ganondorf in OoT.

Originally Posted by shyan

. If it happened anywhere between the seven years of Ocarina of Time, it would obviously prove Link's vision false.

Too bad it wasn't a vision.

I think they just needed to show something during the ending credits. The vision would have already ended when Zelda played the Song of Time for Link in the clouds, and that happened before the credits. It's obviously we're not looking through Link's eyes as the people are celebrating.

Listen, TWW is direct proof that the adult part of OoT is not a vision.

Okay, quick intervention.

This is the "other person" helping shyan compose her logic in this debate. I think it's important to take a small step backwards and put a few things into perspective, if anymore forward progress is to be made.

Prepare for the origin of the very questionable Vision Theory.

Alright, the Vision Theory was the result of a partially unrelated line of thought transforming into a laundrylist of unexplained variables in the OoT storyline. Shyan apparently caught wind that Navi ran off at the end of OoT for no reason and asked me why. I honestly wasn't under the impression that Navi left Link there, even though I watched the ending of OoT, albiet not with too much scrutiny. Even with MM, it didn't occur to me. It was only when she showed me the clip of the ending did I consider it a possibility.

Of course, it didn't make any sense at all to me why Navi would just up and ditch Link without anything so much as a goodbye. At the time, neither of us were familiar with the Split Timeline Theory, so we just started from scratch trying to fit all the puzzle pieces together. 30 minutes later, hail the birth of the Vision Theory. Shyan REALLY wanted Navi to be reunited with Link, because it was obvious in MM that Navi was still M.I.A. Before you know it, it dawned on her that Navi was with Link 7 years later, so Link HAD to have found Navi during that period. I told her that would only work if Navi didn't follow Link into the future.

Long story short, one critical thinking session later, I gave her all the conjecture she needed to have a feasible theory that would reunite Link with Navi in 7 years involving the future being a premonition.

Of course... now we had to warn the world that Link's adventure in the future could have been nothing more than a vision.

And here we are, seeing how the theory stood up to scrutiny.

Yeah, it was going great for a while; I was telling her what logical points to emphasize and helping her get her facts straight. Evenetually, my job also became poking holes into the Split Timeline Theory. I was fine with that until it involed me trying to contradict Aonuma, the guy who produces the games. I might be smart, but I certainly don't know more about OoT than the guy who made it.

I'll be honest with you: I skipped all the games featuring Toon Link, including Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks, and Phantom Hourglass. Had no idea that they had an official direct relation with OoT. Probably should have, in retrospect, seeing how they make large and unsightly punctures into the Vision Theory. Aside from the Great Sea disappearing as quickly as it appeared, the Vision Theory did little to address the coexistance of TWW and TP in the span of a few years while it makes perfect sense in the Split Timeline Theory.

But I did learn a lot in the span of the debate.

Once the evidence from TWW and TP began being presented, the theory hit a dead end and shyan basically began grasping at straws, throwing out nothing more than conjecture without any sort of proof. Of course, I let her know she couldn't prove what she was saying with the current evidence we had, but I still helped her compose her arguement.

And at about this point, I figure we've digressed far enough from the goal of this debate: Figuring out whether it was possible that Navi was reunited with Link within 7 years after the end of OoT, if not at all. That was the point of the Vision Theory, but I feel that at this point, I think it would be wiser just to go back to the drawing board.

It's a little troubling that the Split Timeline Theory sounds more likely in the light of the events in TWW and TP, since it doesn't address what happened to Navi... or at least as far as I know.

I get the feeling that shyan may still try to pursue the Vision Theory, since it technically hasn't been fully deflated and the Split Timeline Theory still contains a fair amount of unanswered questions. She agreed to let me do the talking for her this one time, since we both are in agreement that I would do a better job conveying this point. It's either that, or I'd be telling her to type out this entire thing, which is more effort than I want to commit.

In conclusion, I'm going to try and get shyan to drop the theory and figure out something else out with the new information we picked up. She respects my opinion and I'm confident she'll... eventually agree. I'm just afraid continuing this theory is like beating a dead horse and shyan might do something... regretful. They say it's better to stop while you're ahead.

So there you have it.

Oh, one more thing:
Should shyan continue this line of thinking, she's doing it alone. I'll only help her if she chooses to pursue a different theory. It's obvious the Vision Theory isn't going anywhere productive. I mean... it's still a distant possibility in my mind... but seriously not worth the hassle of looking for loop holes to prove it with.

So... if you guys could help us figure out what happened to Navi, it would be really helpful, even if just a seemingly irrelevant fact. I certainly don't want shyan losing sleep at night wondering about the fate of Navi for more nights than she has to.

Um... long live Link!

Shyan I like your points and I will elaborate more but I am tired now it's 2am where I'm at. But I agree with you on many things.

Originally Posted by shyan

With what? We'll need some additional evidence to prove there is an alternate way to open the Door of Time.

We don't have that evidence. I am just taking to most simple guess that the Door of Time can be opened from the other side without a key.

Originally Posted by shyan

Our vision theory does nothing to address how both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess occur simultaneously. At the very best explination I can provide assuming WW happens in the same Hyrule universe as OoT, Twilight Princess happened some time after WW and between that point, the Great Sea receded. That's the very best explination I can provide assuming both happened on the same timeline.

AGAIN: The DEVELOPERS said that TP happens in the CT and WW in the AT, there is nothing to theorize about that anymore. It was said and has to be taken as fact. Period.

OMG this is so much fun. I never ever got talk about this with anyone.

obviously its fiction and meddling with past/present never makes sense, not even in harry potter number 3...(thats a separate thread.. )

But here is how it works for me....iv'e been through it in my head before.


in ocarina of time, the way it works is when link touches the sword he falls asleep for 7 years.
each day that passes in the future also pulls him a day later in the past. so if he waits 20 days then puts the sword back he returns 7 years ago minus 20 days. this makes sense with the fact that anything he gets or uncovers like heart containers don't reappear. the time has passed and cannot be gotten back. 7 years back or forward from the day he puts it back.


It is clear form the ending that everything has been set back when zelda says in paraphrase 'this is all my fault, i should not have involved you blah blah blah' she wants to set things right. to do so she sends him back.
Whether this is fully sending back or minus the days used like with the sword, is irrelevant because it still means that, in the past, ganondorf is back out and at large.
but its ok because he wont get anywhere without you opening the temple of time which you know now not to open

the last scene is where zelda meets link in the same place at the same time. She is looking through the glass at ganondorf
it only leaves you to wonder what their conversation will be. will link do the whole game over? or will link tell her to Not to meddle in her fathers affairs and forget about ganondorf and tell her about what happened.


now if you want to connect twilight princess you can say ganondorf got captured at another point in time or twilight princess follows the future story with zelda and no link and ganondorf sealed in the sacred realm. there you take on the role of a new link who meets the old zelda and helps her in the twilight game.



NOW WHERE THE HELL IS SKYWARD SWORD? IT BETTER NOT BE SEPTEMBER. I EXPECTED IT THIS SUMMER.

When Link pulls out the Master Sword the first time, yes he goes to sleep for seven years. Let's say that he wakes up and it takes him 1 week to complete all the temples up to the Shadow Temple. At that point he puts the sword back and goes back in time to get the Eye of Truth. He runs back to the Temple of Time with the Eye of Truth and goes back to the future and arrives when he put the sword back. Then let's say it takes him 4 days to complete all the way up to the Spirit Temple. Again he places the sword back and goes back to when he left with with the Eye of Truth. Then he pulls the sword out again after getting the Silver Gauntlets and goes back to the future at the point he put the sword back. Then he goes and fights Ganondorf and then Zelda sends him all the way back to before they met the first time.

Proof that she sent him back all that way-

Ganondorf attacks Hyrule the day you pull out the Master Sword, so why would she be back in her courtyard looking in the window if her dad was dead and Ganondorf was currently in the Sacred Realm taking the Triforce? Zelda acts surprised when she sees Link even though Link knows what's going on. Twilight Princess proves this I guess. Don't think it's very realistic though. Link says, "I've come back from the future and Ganondorf will attack in 6 days and kill your father." Zelda says, "Ok let's wait and see what he does." Uh, ok. Or you could get your bodyguards and prepare defenses and those body guards that protect the kingdom that day become the Knights of Hyrule. Oh what do you know, a great way to lead into ALttP.

But yeah, that's how the time traveling thing goes in OoT.