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Old 04-14-2011, 06:35 PM
Xanaklusmos Xanaklusmos is a male United States Xanaklusmos is offline
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The other three virtues??


We all know that the three pieces of the triforce, along with the three goddesses, represent the virtues of courage, wisdom, and power. In OoT, they are also represented by the forest, fore, and water temples along with their respective sages and even coresponding races, but what about the other three temples/sages/races?

I have come to the conclusion that the temples of Light(or time), Shadow, and Spirit each symbolize their own respective abstract ideas or virtues.

First in my theory I will discuss Light. (I say light rather than time because of the sage of light, prelude of light, and light medallion) Light, I think, represents Hylian balance. The sacred realm, the entrance to which is located within the Temple of Time, is the resting place of the Triforce, as we all know. The Triforce represents the power of the three Golden Goddesses in harmony. For one to gain the true power of the Triforce, they must posess a certain balance between the three holy virtues. Furthermore, The sage of Light, Rauru. is Hylian, the race that I believe represents light as they are the chosen race of the three goddesses, chosen to preside over Hyrule and keep the other races in harmony, as well as guarding the Triforce.

Second, I have concluded that Shadow represents truth. Now while this may seem strange, as one would think the purpose of shadow might be to hide the truth, and that shadow might actually rpresent lies, but that is the very reason it makes sense (yay for paradoxes!!). Where would the truth usually be located? Well if its not initially hidden in shadow, then why bother labelling it as a truth? And what are secrets, which would customarily be shrouded in shadows, if not hidden truths? Furthermore, I would like to point out the mask and lense of truth, which are used to uncover things that are usually hidden, or truths hidden in shadows. These objects are easily associated with the sheikah race and the shadow temple by their image.


Finally, Spirit. I have found significant evidence that the sage, medallion, and temple of spirit represent counterbalance (balance of two). Before I present the more concrete of my evidence, I want to point out that the Gerudo desert is not a part of Hyrule, nor do the gerudos consider themselves a part of the Kingdom like the Gorons, Zoras, and Kokiri( although not as much the kokiri) do. Furthermore, the main antagonist of OoT, Ganondorf, is a Gerudo, and serves to be the antithesis of Link and Zelda, the protagonists, in the same way that it makes sense for the land of the Gerudos to serve as Hyrule's antithisis, or counterbalance. Also, the Gerudos are primarily female, perhaps representing some counterbalance to the concepts of patriarchy that may (or may not) be the standard of other Hyrulean societies.
As for the hard evidence, it is fourfold. First is the image of a "goddess of the sand" that serves as the Spirit Temple. if the concept of a fourth goddess to counter the Three wasnt enough, just look at her hands.

They are held in a gesture of equilibrium and balance, like a scale.
More significant however, is the spirit medallion.
It is easy to see that the image on the medallion resembles yin and yang, which is representative of two equal but oppisite entities balancing each other out.
Next is the mirror shield. obviously, the concept of a mirror and an equal but opposite reflection support the idea of counterbalance, but I also want to make note of its image.

The mirror shield bears the image of a crescent moon and, what I believe to be, a sun, which also reminds us that we use this mirror shield in the temple to reflect light onto sun symbols on the walls. (So even if its not a sun on the shield, the suns on the walls could make up for that.)
Finally, there is the spirit temple's boss: Twinrova, also known as Koume and Kotake in their seperated form. The two witch sisters bear the elements of fire and ice, which are so obviously opposites. To me, this is a clear indicator of the counterbalance motif throughout the area.

Thats my theory. Questions, comments, criticisms appreciated!
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:37 PM
Dearly Beloved Dearly Beloved is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

I wouldn't go so far as to say that there exist three other values that correspond with those of the goddesses. I don't see how the Forest Temple represents courage, nor do I see the same with the Fire and Water Temples with their respective counterparts. If there ever existed another value, it'd be Kindness, as implied by MM.
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:45 PM
Grówli Grówli is a male Grówli is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

This is very interesting, but I think you're over-thinking stuff. I bet the designers just thought those were cool designs for the medallions and whatnot.

Also, the crescent moon was changed for a different symbol!

Linking the virtues to the temples is too vague an assertion too, IMO. They're just elemental temples. I doubt they have anything to do with the Triforce virtues or Goddesses.
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:53 PM
Hero of Doom Hero of Doom is a male United States Hero of Doom is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

I like how you out a lot of thought into it.
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Old 04-15-2011, 03:06 PM
Spire Spire is a male United States Spire is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

To the naysayers, I say you are on to something Xanaklusmos. While your alternate trio of virtues is sound, there's a good chance that the developers weren't aware of the ramifications pertaining to your theory that would spawn from the implemented details that have led you to this conclusion. However, just because something is not blatantly mentioned at any given point in the series does not suggest it cannot exist behind the curtains. By that assertation, I refer to the idea of a loose concept woven into the fabric with great subtlety, one of sheer ambivalence towards the more conservative idea of having just the triforce, and yet without the confirmation of officials like Miyamoto. Regardless, it's a great theory but there is no textual evidence to support it. Though that lends to the debate of how important text really is. The text in the Zelda games composes the legend itself. Imagine if you're grandmother was telling you the "Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time" in its entirety. This means that every piece of text in the game sans the tutorial dialog (i.e. press the up C button to talk to me!) contributes to the overall story. Thus the imagery within the games is up to our imaginations to piece together however and whatever we want. If this alternate set of virtues is true to you, then let it be.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:20 PM
Xanaklusmos Xanaklusmos is a male United States Xanaklusmos is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

Thank you Spire! And if you think about it, is any of this any more far reaching than Tetraforce Theory (of which I am a believer)?

Its just that when I lay the evidence out in front of me, particularly the spirit medallion, sun/moon thing, and twinrova- fire/ice thing, it really seems like there's just too much for it to be a coincidence.

And as for the temples, they do have a direct connection to the Trinity.
Farore--courage-green-Kokiri-Kokiri emerald-saria-forest temple
Nayru--wisdom-blue-Zoras-Zora saphire-Ruto-Water Temple
Din--Power-red-gorons-goron ruby-Darunia-Fire Temple
Everything in Zelda is connected.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:56 PM
Grówli Grówli is a male Grówli is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spire View Post
To the naysayers, I say you are on to something Xanaklusmos. While your alternate trio of virtues is sound, there's a good chance that the developers weren't aware of the ramifications pertaining to your theory that would spawn from the implemented details that have led you to this conclusion. However, just because something is not blatantly mentioned at any given point in the series does not suggest it cannot exist behind the curtains. By that assertation, I refer to the idea of a loose concept woven into the fabric with great subtlety, one of sheer ambivalence towards the more conservative idea of having just the triforce, and yet without the confirmation of officials like Miyamoto. Regardless, it's a great theory but there is no textual evidence to support it. Though that lends to the debate of how important text really is. The text in the Zelda games composes the legend itself. Imagine if you're grandmother was telling you the "Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time" in its entirety. This means that every piece of text in the game sans the tutorial dialog (i.e. press the up C button to talk to me!) contributes to the overall story. Thus the imagery within the games is up to our imaginations to piece together however and whatever we want. If this alternate set of virtues is true to you, then let it be.
If anything's true to oneself, yeah, let it be. But there's a fine line that separates theory from fan fiction, and that is a little something called developer intent...
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:31 PM
Xanaklusmos Xanaklusmos is a male United States Xanaklusmos is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

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Originally Posted by Grówli View Post
If anything's true to oneself, yeah, let it be. But there's a fine line that separates theory from fan fiction, and that is a little something called developer intent...
Does it really make sense that they didnt at least have a theme in mind when they implemented yin and yang, sun and moon, and fire and ice into the Spirit Temple? Its too much for coincidence. Even if wasnt meant to be on equal terms as the Triforce virtues, its a recurring motif that must be there for some kind of purpose.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:46 PM
Hero of Doom Hero of Doom is a male United States Hero of Doom is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

I think they might of had something like that in mind,
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:08 PM
Grówli Grówli is a male Grówli is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

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Originally Posted by Xanaklusmos View Post
Does it really make sense that they didnt at least have a theme in mind when they implemented yin and yang, sun and moon, and fire and ice into the Spirit Temple? Its too much for coincidence. Even if wasnt meant to be on equal terms as the Triforce virtues, its a recurring motif that must be there for some kind of purpose.
I still think you're over-analyzing stuff... Yes, it's a recurring motif. That I do agree on. But whether it must represent a new virtue... I like to believe it doesn't. The game's attention to detail is what makes it amazing. Those perks, themes and motifs are there to add life to the game, and that's a good enough reason to be already.

What people sometimes fail to understand is that though the creation of games is a very creative process, sometimes the developers face many pressures such as time constraints to spend time creating such complex mythologies that would probably only be discovered by smart researchers like you.

Like I said, your approach to those themes is really interesting. I actually find it very clever. But accept not everything is there for a reason. You also can't be sure whether you're making the correct interpretation...

But hey, if you think this is real... Remember the three main virtues have something your three new ones don't: Triforce pieces and the holders of such pieces. They also are represented by deities.

I also urge you to consider not only the Shadow, Light and Spirit temples. The concept of wisdom/courage/power is recurrent across almost every Zelda game. How are balance, truth and counterbalance represented in the rest of the series?
Last Edited by Grówli; 04-15-2011 at 07:10 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:48 PM
Beemnorv Beemnorv is a male Canada Beemnorv is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

I think this is a pretty good theory. I may not agree with some or all of it, but I would not credit the whole theory as unlikely. There is some good reasoning behind it. Everything in the games is put in the games for a reason because things like that don't just "accidentally" creep into the program of a game. A programmer literally has to sit there and put specific things in a specific order in a specific way. If certain symbolism can be drawn from certain significant objects, chances are it was meant to be that way.

But again, I'm not sure I agree with the OP's conclusion, but it is very interesting to note.
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Old 04-15-2011, 08:17 PM
Dearly Beloved Dearly Beloved is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanaklusmos View Post
And as for the temples, they do have a direct connection to the Trinity.
Farore--courage-green-Kokiri-Kokiri emerald-saria-forest temple
Nayru--wisdom-blue-Zoras-Zora saphire-Ruto-Water Temple
Din--Power-red-gorons-goron ruby-Darunia-Fire Temple
Ganondorf-Triforce of power-Din-red-Darunia-Fire Temple

It doesn't work that way. Also, under the slim possibility that the Kokiri/Gorons/Zoras represent the three virtues, it's a huge stretch to say that there exists a correlation between those representations and the Temples.
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Everything in Zelda is connected.
Zelda isn't a series that focuses on instilling connections between plot devices with only the faintest relevance to each other. That's Kingdom Hearts material.
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:40 AM
bitterlime Germany bitterlime is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

I agree that the sprit temples theme is antipodes and (counter)balance. The very location is indicating this, the desert is scorching during the day and cold as ice at night. Other than what you already said I'd like to add that the temple can only be completed by the joint effort of an adult and a child (those two being the same person in Links case ofcourse). And the concept of reflections and mirrors is dominant in the temple.

The theme of the shadow temple is hidden truth to some extend (hidden plaforms, holes and enemies etc, hyrules bloody past), but a far more dominant theme is death (reaper statues, boat crossing a river, execution instuments) and maybe war/conflict.

Light didn't really have a temple...although TP arguably provides the temple for light, the temple of time/light is clearly linked to...well obviously those two items. But there are also things like a giant scale in one room. So balance/harmony doesn't seem too far fetched.

I have to say though, I don't think that these "temple themes" necessariely relate to the triforce or anything, like you suggested here. Still, good observations.
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:34 PM
Xanaklusmos Xanaklusmos is a male United States Xanaklusmos is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

First off, thanks for the feedback everybody, its appreciated!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grówli View Post
I still think you're over-analyzing stuff... Yes, it's a recurring motif. That I do agree on. But whether it must represent a new virtue... I like to believe it doesn't.
I will say I have a bit of a reputation for overthinking things, but I'll also say that this kind of over-analysis is what I live for! I understand that I'm looking deeper than I need to, but I dont believe I've said anything totally unreasonable. Again, I do admit that my "virtues" dont necessarily exist on equal grounds as the triforce or the goddesses, but I still assert that there's too much evidence to deny their existence. And if not virtues, then just themes perhaps, themes that characterize what the temples represent.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Grówli View Post
I also urge you to consider not only the Shadow, Light and Spirit temples. The concept of wisdom/courage/power is recurrent across almost every Zelda game. How are balance, truth and counterbalance represented in the rest of the series?
That is actually a very interesting concept that I would very much like to look into...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dearly Beloved View Post
Ganondorf-Triforce of power-Din-red-Darunia-Fire Temple

It doesn't work that way. Also, under the slim possibility that the Kokiri/Gorons/Zoras represent the three virtues, it's a huge stretch to say that there exists a correlation between those representations and the Temples.
Doesn't it? Is it? I'm gonna have to disagree with you here, because thats exactly the way I see it working. The Door of Time, through which one must pass If he is to reach the Triforce in the sacred realm, can only be opened by the three spiritual stones: The kokiri emerald, the goron ruby, and the zora saphire. Obviously, these stones are representative of the three pieces of the triforce, the emerald for courage, the ruby for power and the saphire for wisdom. This also connects the races to the virtues: the kokiri for courage, the gorons for fower, and the zoras for wisdom. This in turn connects the sages, who are each members of a specific race, to the stones and the virtues, Saria-Kokiri-the emeral-courage, Darunia-Goron-the ruby-power, and Ruto-Zora-the saphire-wisdom. And this ineveitably brings us to the temples. The dungeons Link goes through to get the stones are in the same element as the temples: inside a tree-deep in a forest, inside a cavern in a mountain-in a volcano at the top of the same mountain, inside a fish-underneath a lake. Later, in TP, the provinces where these things were located even became named after the goddesses. Zora's River and Domain, along with Lake Hylia, were located in Lanayru, Death Mountain in Eldin, and the forest in Faron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dearly Beloved View Post
Zelda isn't a series that focuses on instilling connections between plot devices with only the faintest relevance to each other. That's Kingdom Hearts material.
This is intersting because Kingdom Hearts happens to be my other favorite franchize (as a matter of fact I just finished playing through Re:Coded the other day). I dont think they're so different. Obviously the gameplay is different, and Kingdom Hearts has more character depth, but the connections between the two are almost as profound as the connections in Zelda or those in KH. Think about BBS for a second; Ventus, Terra, and Aqua. A ventus is a wind spirit in Roman mythology, and terra and aqua obviously mean earth and water. Now look at how they are represented by colors. Ventus: green, Terra: red, and aqua: blue. Yet another trinity that could very easily be identified with the goddesses. Dont their character traits even suggest the virtues? Terra: power, Ven: courage. and Aqua: wisdom. It really kind of fits.
Do you know where the word "courage" comes from? The latin root cour, which means "heart." Courage therefore means strength of the heart, which is what Sora had for the Keyblade to choose him. Therefore, Sora and Link both rely on courage; Sora and link rely on the strength of their hearts. It works! The relevence isn't as faint as you think it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterlime View Post
I agree that the sprit temples theme is antipodes and (counter)balance. The very location is indicating this, the desert is scorching during the day and cold as ice at night. Other than what you already said I'd like to add that the temple can only be completed by the joint effort of an adult and a child (those two being the same person in Links case ofcourse). And the concept of reflections and mirrors is dominant in the temple.
First, I want to say that I really liked your post because it was very constructive and made me aware of things that I hadn't noticed or considered before, namely the part about the desert being hot during the day and cold at night.

As for the adult/child joint effort, that was something that actually crossed my mind sometime after I made my OP. Its good to know I wasn't the only one who noticed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterlime View Post
The theme of the shadow temple is hidden truth to some extend (hidden plaforms, holes and enemies etc, hyrules bloody past), but a far more dominant theme is death (reaper statues, boat crossing a river, execution instuments) and maybe war/conflict.
Thats a very good point, I have to say. It would make sense is one considers shadow the opposite of light, and is not death often depicted as a shadow of some sort? Or perhaps, just maybe, one could go far enough as to say the shadow temple is meant to represent some kind of truth that can be found in death, or is maybe hidden by death.
...is it really that far fetched to consider videogames such as Zelda just an interactive, visual form of literature? Allowing us to dissect the details as we might a book in an English class? searching for symbols, themes, and meanings deliberately placed by the developers/authors? This is why I play video games, because its like reading a book, only its more fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterlime View Post
Light didn't really have a temple...although TP arguably provides the temple for light, the temple of time/light is clearly linked to...well obviously those two items. But there are also things like a giant scale in one room. So balance/harmony doesn't seem too far fetched.
This discussion likely belongs in another thread entirely, but I will brush on it a bit:
From my understanding, the Temple of Light was located in the Sacred Realm and was basically the exit, where the Temple of Time was the entrance. I found it strange then, that you would meet the sage of light by visiting that temple, and that the Prelude of Light would teleport you to the Temple of Time. I decided that the two temples must have a direct connection to one another. The I wondered, if Rauru is the Sage of Light, then who is the Sage of Time? Well, who is the only other sage that is not identified with a medallion and a temple? The answer was clear to me as soon as I asked the question. I wont elaborate here, as that is slightly off topic, but perhaps another time.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:30 PM
Dearly Beloved Dearly Beloved is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

You can connect the dots, but that doesn't mean that the dots will be compatible with each other. If the races were related to their respective virtues/themes, how come the Gerudo (or Ganondorf, for that matter) don't reflect the theme ying/yang? There still exists the problem about the actual Temples, as well. Just because the Kokiri and the Forest Temple are both in forests doesn't imply a connection between them. I suppose you could say that the presence of ghosts could refer to the virtue/theme of courage, but I found the Forest Temple to be more about civilization and its mansion structures.

Regarding KH, well...Plot devices hold much more depth in KH than in Zelda. The Spirit Temple's theme of Ying/Yang doesn't hold as much importance to the Zelda series as, say, the anatomy of Xehanort to the KH series. That being said, I did find the Earth/Wind/Water comparison to be interesting.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:31 PM
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Re: The other three virtues??

The other three are it's opposites: Weakness, Foolishness, and Fear.

As for your theory on the spirit medallion: I just think the ying yang represents ones spirit. I think you're going somewhere with the whole shadow/truth theory.
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Old 04-16-2011, 02:08 PM
Xanaklusmos Xanaklusmos is a male United States Xanaklusmos is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

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Originally Posted by Dearly Beloved View Post
You can connect the dots, but that doesn't mean that the dots will be compatible with each other.
I've connected the dots, and I can see the picture they make. Perhaps the fact that you refuse to see the picture suggests that this is a matter of perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dearly Beloved View Post
If the races were related to their respective virtues/themes, how come the Gerudo (or Ganondorf, for that matter) don't reflect the theme ying/yang?
But thats just it! They do! The Gerudos are the Yang for Hyrule's Yin, and Ganondorf is the Yang for Link and Zelda's Yin. It's counterbalance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dearly Beloved View Post
Just because the Kokiri and the Forest Temple are both in forests doesn't imply a connection between them.
Its not just that they live in the forest. It has more to do with the fact that the Forest sage is Kokiri (a pattern that repeats with every other temple). The developers didnt just slap random colors onto everything. Almost anytime you see red, blue, or green in a Zelda game it has something to do with the goddesses. The trinity is literally everywhere. I could even go as far as pointing out connections withEragon, Christianity, or even Freudian Psychology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dearly Beloved View Post
Regarding KH, well...Plot devices hold much more depth in KH than in Zelda. The Spirit Temple's theme of Ying/Yang doesn't hold as much importance to the Zelda series as, say, the anatomy of Xehanort to the KH series.
Thats true the conections in KH are more plot based, but that doesn't mean Zelda can't have just as much Theme based connections. On the other hand, what about the complexity and detail involved with the timeline? Thats about as plot related as things get. They've both got thematic and plot connections. So when you speak of importance, you have to separate the two, or else you end up comparing apples to bell peppers.
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Old 04-16-2011, 05:30 PM
Grówli Grówli is a male Grówli is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

Quote:
I will say I have a bit of a reputation for overthinking things, but I'll also say that this kind of over-analysis is what I live for! I understand that I'm looking deeper than I need to, but I dont believe I've said anything totally unreasonable. Again, I do admit that my "virtues" dont necessarily exist on equal grounds as the triforce or the goddesses, but I still assert that there's too much evidence to deny their existence. And if not virtues, then just themes perhaps, themes that characterize what the temples represent.
Then maybe you shouldn't approach it as three new virtues... each temple, or at least many of them throughout the series have their own themes and motifs.

What I'm saying is, for example, that I do believe the Spirit Temple is represented by a motif of reflection/counterbalance. What I argued was whether it is relevant to anything outside of just being the temple's theme, like a new virtue you already as important as power/wisdom/courage... or even the concept of virtues itself. I'll stick with it just being a theme.
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Old 04-16-2011, 06:22 PM
Xanaklusmos Xanaklusmos is a male United States Xanaklusmos is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

I can live with that!
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:39 PM
Dearly Beloved Dearly Beloved is offline
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Re: The other three virtues??

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Originally Posted by Xanaklusmos View Post
I've connected the dots, and I can see the picture they make. Perhaps the fact that you refuse to see the picture suggests that this is a matter of perspective.
I don't believe I've clarified yet that I find the idea of themes to be plausible, so my bad for that. My only problem with this is the correlation between the three original virtues and the first three Temples.

Quote:
But thats just it! They do! The Gerudos are the Yang for Hyrule's Yin, and Ganondorf is the Yang for Link and Zelda's Yin. It's counterbalance.
That's rather poor balancing. One Tribe does not compare to the rest of the world, much like how one person does not compare to two.

Quote:
Its not just that they live in the forest. It has more to do with the fact that the Forest sage is Kokiri (a pattern that repeats with every other temple). The developers didnt just slap random colors onto everything. Almost anytime you see red, blue, or green in a Zelda game it has something to do with the goddesses. The trinity is literally everywhere.
In that case, how exactly would Ruto be associated with Wisdom?


Quote:
Thats true the conections in KH are more plot based, but that doesn't mean Zelda can't have just as much Theme based connections. On the other hand, what about the complexity and detail involved with the timeline? Thats about as plot related as things get. They've both got thematic and plot connections..
If the series was supposed to be one huge story, then the timeline would hold more importance. However, almost every entry in the series focuses primarily on its own story, putting little effort into connecting to other games. In other words, the timeline isn't integral to the series.
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