Zarco's Timeline

Ok, I've been here long enough to formulate, destroy (like my pre-oot LoZ timeline), and reformulate timelines, and I'm ready to post and defend the timeline I'm happy with for now:

SS-OoT-WW/PH-ST-MC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-LoZ-AoL
...........\MM/OoX-TP

SS was announced to be first, followed by OoT, so I'll run with that. In the OoT ending, Link is sent form destroyed Hyrule in the pre-OoT timeline (AT), which I'll get back to. As a child, he is sent back to a "modified" Hyrule: while he has not met Zelda, helped the various races of Hyrule, or drawn the MS, the Door of time is open and the Triforce distributed. We know this because Link has the ToC in the ending and Ganondorf has the ToP in the Divine Prank.

When Link leaves for MM, Ganondorf harasses the various races and is "executed" as seen in the TP BS. When Link returns with Epona from Termina, many years have passed and OoX begins. The Triforce is not a physical item, but a manifestation of the Goddesses, so the state of the Triforce is not an issue in OoX. Since Ganondorf was not really killed, he can't be reincarnated as Twinrova want, so a mindless clone of him is created in the Linked ending. Then TP happens ending with Ganondorf being killed, ending my CT (Alternate Timeline).

Returning to the Original Timeline (the AT), WW-ST happen. Then the Deku Tree's plan of draining the ocean/rebuilding the land is somehow realized and people colonize the new land. MC, in a way, is a new origin story for Hyrule. The last Gorons are dying out, and the Zoras don't exist, at least not as they did in OoT, TP, etc. We later see the hostile Zola/river Zora emerge. In MC, Death Mountain's name, the Triforce's history, etc. has not been discovered, so the people are ignorant of the land's history. More knowledge of the previous Hyrule is discovered as this timeline continues (so later games feature Death Mountain, Kakariko, etc.).

FSA is the new Imprisoning War and leads into LttP pretty well. LttP and LA happen. The LttP MS may in fact be the FS once it loses its division powers when Vaati is killed. This explains why it doesn't kill Ganondorf, and we must wait till LoZ. However, the original may have resurfaced from the bottom of the ocean.

Its late, so leave comments, objections, etc. and I'll elaborate then.

Ok, I've been here long enough to formulate, destroy (like my pre-oot LoZ timeline), and reformulate timelines, and I'm ready to post and defend the timeline I'm happy with for now:

SS-OoT-WW/PH-ST-MC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-LoZ-AoL
...........\MM/OoX-TP

SS was announced to be first, followed by OoT, so I'll run with that. In the OoT ending, Link is sent form destroyed Hyrule in the pre-OoT timeline (AT), which I'll get back to. As a child, he is sent back to a "modified" Hyrule: while he has not met Zelda, helped the various races of Hyrule, or drawn the MS, the Door of time is open and the Triforce distributed. We know this because Link has the ToC in the ending and Ganondorf has the ToP in the Divine Prank.

I agree

When Link leaves for MM, Ganondorf harasses the various races and is "executed" as seen in the TP BS. When Link returns with Epona from Termina, many years have passed and OoX begins. The Triforce is not a physical item, but a manifestation of the Goddesses, so the state of the Triforce is not an issue in OoX. Since Ganondorf was not really killed, he can't be reincarnated as Twinrova want, so a mindless clone of him is created in the Linked ending. Then TP happens ending with Ganondorf being killed, ending my CT (Alternate Timeline).

There is no evidnece to support your theory about the triforce being a "Manifestation of the goddesses" there is however evidence to the contrary being that the triforce is often split, sought after, stolen, and that it has its own resting place. These all contribute to that it is a physical item. And with the triforce split at the end of OoT you can't have OoX in between OoT and TP.

Returning to the Original Timeline (the AT), WW-ST happen. Then the Deku Tree's plan of draining the ocean/rebuilding the land is somehow realized and people colonize the new land. MC, in a way, is a new origin story for Hyrule. The last Gorons are dying out, and the Zoras don't exist, at least not as they did in OoT, TP, etc. We later see the hostile Zola/river Zora emerge. In MC, Death Mountain's name, the Triforce's history, etc. has not been discovered, so the people are ignorant of the land's history. More knowledge of the previous Hyrule is discovered as this timeline continues (so later games feature Death Mountain, Kakariko, etc.).

The Zoras elvolve into rito.

FSA is the new Imprisoning War and leads into LttP pretty well. LttP and LA happen. The LttP MS may in fact be the FS once it loses its division powers when Vaati is killed. This explains why it doesn't kill Ganondorf, and we must wait till LoZ. However, the original may have resurfaced from the bottom of the ocean.

Four Sword =/= Master Sword, i think there is a devolper quote confirming this. and i disagree with your placement of LttP-AoL, but whatever floats your boat.

Originally Posted by Zarco

Ok, I've been here long enough to formulate, destroy (like my pre-oot LoZ timeline), and reformulate timelines, and I'm ready to post and defend the timeline I'm happy with for now:

SS-OoT-WW/PH-ST-MC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-LoZ-AoL
...........\MM/OoX-TP

Ok, I've been here long enough to formulate, destroy (like my pre-TP OoX timeline), and reformulate timelines, and I'm ready to destroy the timeline

When Link leaves for MM, Ganondorf harasses the various races and is "executed" as seen in the TP BS. When Link returns with Epona from Termina, many years have passed and OoX begins.

Um, no. Link didn't know Zelda, nor did she know him in OoX.
In OoT, she said she felt like she had known him forever.

The Triforce is not a physical item, but a manifestation of the Goddesses, so the state of the Triforce is not an issue in OoX. Since Ganondorf was not really killed, he can't be reincarnated as Twinrova want, so a mindless clone of him is created in the Linked ending. Then TP happens ending with Ganondorf being killed, ending my CT (Alternate Timeline).

You ended this one a little too early.

[quote]FSA is the new Imprisoning War[quote]

It is not.

and leads into LttP pretty well.

So does TP.

The LttP MS may in fact be the FS

lolno

However, the original may have resurfaced from the bottom of the ocean.

fanfiction.

Oh, and ALttP Hyrule is Old Hyrule

Originally Posted by Zarco

When Link leaves for MM, Ganondorf harasses the various races and is "executed" as seen in the TP BS. When Link returns with Epona from Termina, many years have passed and OoX begins. The Triforce is not a physical item, but a manifestation of the Goddesses, so the state of the Triforce is not an issue in OoX. Since Ganondorf was not really killed, he can't be reincarnated as Twinrova want, so a mindless clone of him is created in the Linked ending. Then TP happens ending with Ganondorf being killed, ending my CT (Alternate Timeline).

Why does OOX need to be in the child timeline? It fits so much better between ALttP and LA, and some people even make a really good case for it being after AoL, too. Since Ganon is dead and the Triforce is unified and in Hyrule after both ALttP and LoZ, OoX goes so much better after either of them in the adult timeline. The reason the resurrection went wrong was because Link interrupted, and Twinrova had to sacrifice themselves.

FSA is the new Imprisoning War and leads into LttP pretty well. LttP and LA happen. The LttP MS may in fact be the FS once it loses its division powers when Vaati is killed. This explains why it doesn't kill Ganondorf, and we must wait till LoZ. However, the original may have resurfaced from the bottom of the ocean.

Master Sword is not the Four Sword. The Four Sword has its own palace in ALttP GBA, and we see they are separate swords. And Ganon did die in ALttP.

Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper

It is not.

Why can't it be another Seal War? Unless you have a separate timeline for OoT and the 2D games, OoT can't be the only SW.

So does TP.

No it doesn't. FSA features the Dark World, very similar geography, Maidens, and Ganon (with the Trident) getting sealed. Plus the forest thieves from ALttP are started in FSA. In TP, Ganondorf is killed, not sealed.

Oh, and ALttP Hyrule is Old Hyrule

Proof?

Originally Posted by Gold Knight

Why can't it be another Seal War? Unless you have a separate timeline for OoT and the 2D games, OoT can't be the only SW.

At what point did I say OoT was the SW?

Reasons why FSA can't be the SW:

1. The absence of the Master Sword and the Triforce in the final version of the game means that Four Swords Adventures is missing some important pieces from the story of the Imprisoning War that are identifying features of the war. The Triforce and MS are key points in the SW.

2. The Shrine Maidens are all female, whereas the Seven Sages are all Hylian men as said by ALttP.

3. Though some incarnation of the Dark World is present in Four Swords Adventures, it is not explicitly identified as the former Sacred Realm.

4. No Hero was said to have been found to take up arms against Ganon in the Imprisoning War, [a major point of the IW/SW] yet the four Links are present in the game to take on both Vaati and Ganon in this story wielding not the Master Sword, but the Four Sword.

No it doesn't. FSA features the Dark World, very similar geography, Maidens, and Ganon (with the Trident) getting sealed. Plus the forest thieves from ALttP are started in FSA. In TP, Ganondorf is killed, not sealed.

I meant geographically. OoT does even more so.

Proof?

Sacred Realm.

Originally Posted by Cayenne Pepper

I meant geographically. OoT does even more so.

The fact that OoT Hyrule matches ALttP Hyrule more than TP Hyrule indicates a change in intent, n'est-ce pas?

Yeah, unless a new Master Sword origin story crops up, I think we can rule out the possibility of A Link to the Past being in the Adult Timeline. The Master Sword was appropriately buried under the sea along with the rest of old Hyrule. A Link to the Past most likely follows up on Twilight Princess, a game that definitely takes place on the Child Timeline, in an unknown amount of years. Trying to rationalize that Wind Waker leads into A Link to the Past is just going into fanfiction territory in all honesty.

Also it'd be impossible for the Master Sword and Four Sword to be the same, since both coexist in the time of A Link to the Past.

As for the Seal War, I don't think we've really seen it yet in the series, much like the story of the Hero of Men. Four Swords Adventure and Ocarina of Time's plots were both made with the Seal War in mind, but both have inconsistencies with the original legend...a legend having inconsistencies by NATURE. The Seal War could simply be a legend passed down as instructions on how to defeat Ganon.

Originally Posted by Big One

Yeah, unless a new Master Sword origin story crops up, I think we can rule out the possibility of A Link to the Past being in the Adult Timeline.

Or unless we get a game after ST featuring the revival of the original one.

The Master Sword was appropriately buried under the sea along with the rest of old Hyrule. A Link to the Past most likely follows up on Twilight Princess, a game that definitely takes place on the Child Timeline, in an unknown amount of years.

ALttP most likely follows up from OoT on the AT because that's where it ever did and ever will make sense.

TP was also on the AT until a few months before it was released. If ALttP was meant to come after it from the beginning, we have no reason to assume it moved with it to the CT, especially since the developers had some ending details to fix up during the move to the CT which might suggest that they had to remove it from after TP.

So if ALttP was originally after TP, it did not move to the CT with it and any remaining similarities are due to lack of time to remove them.*

If ALttP was originally on the CT, the developers wouldn't have taken the risk of destroying the perfect continuity by moving TP in between it and OoT.

*If that argument doesn't apply to ALttP, it definitely applies to FSA.

Trying to rationalize that Wind Waker leads into A Link to the Past is just going into fanfiction territory in all honesty.

Same for TP - ALttP.

As for the Seal War, I don't think we've really seen it yet in the series, much like the story of the Hero of Men. Four Swords Adventure and Ocarina of Time's plots were both made with the Seal War in mind, but both have inconsistencies with the original legend...a legend having inconsistencies by NATURE.

The developers confirmed that OoT was the Seal War and no newer games contradict this.

The Seal War could simply be a legend passed down as instructions on how to defeat Ganon.

How? The Seal War story doesn't contain any information on how to even harm Ganon at all.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

ALttP most likely follows up from OoT on the AT because that's where it ever did and ever will make sense.

TP was also on the AT until a few months before it was released. If ALttP was meant to come after it from the beginning, we have no reason to assume it moved with it to the CT, especially since the developers had some ending details to fix up during the move to the CT which might suggest that they had to remove it from after TP.

Umm...you're getting some details mixed up from here.

For one, the original timeline, before Wind Waker was...

Ocarina of Time -> Majora's Mask -> A Link to the Past -> Link's Awakening

Intentionally, at one time, there was a single timeline seemingly (unless the split timeline was planned ahead of time, which, that, no one knows).

When the production of Wind Waker started, it was decided that Wind Waker would follow up on the Adult ending of Ocarina of Time rather than the Child ending which Majora's Mask followed, meaning it was on a whole tier to itself when it comes to it's story, or, aka, it started it's own timeline.

Tl;dr: A Link to the Past was never intended to be anywhere other than after Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess establishes quite clearly that A Link to the Past takes place sometime after it, while there is nothing in Wind Waker to suggest A Link to the Past takes place after it.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

So if ALttP was originally after TP, it did not move to the CT with it and any remaining similarities are due to lack of time to remove them.

Yeah, no. Clearly you don't know anything about game production here. For one, TP was intended to take place in the Adult Timeline at a time when the story wasn't even formed, and the very first trailer was released which actually wasn't gameplay but rather just tech to show off what the game will LOOK like. When the statement that TP took place on the same timeline as Wind Waker was made, TP wasn't even a video game nor did it have a real story.

You might as well argue that since Minish Cap was intended to be the origin of the Master Sword, that the Four Sword = the Master Sword.

Also, it doesn't matter what was intended, it matters what is intended.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

If ALttP was originally on the CT, the developers wouldn't have taken the risk of destroying the perfect continuity by moving TP in between it and OoT.

As I said, that statement was made at time when the story was barely existent. All of the plot elements in the final game weren't thought of yet, and the original comment implied that the game was going to deal with the Flood hence why a lot of people expected it to back in the game's hype for release. It wasn't till the second trailer and the reveal of the game's name when we got the actual story...which was still in beta form cause Ganondorf wasn't even a part of it till a year later in development.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

Same for TP - ALttP.

There is nothing fanfiction about connecting those two games. The Master Sword's location links the location from Ocarina of Time to A Link to the Past by putting the Temple of Time in the Lost Woods, while there is absolutely nothing to connect Wind Waker with A Link to the Past. A Link to the Past also takes place in Old Hyrule, which is under the depths of waters in Wind Waker. None of this is fanfiction, but what IS fanfiction is suggesting that Old Hyrule rises from the waters and the Master Sword magically pops out of nowhere. That isn't theorizing, that's bull****ting.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

The developers confirmed that OoT was the Seal War and no newer games contradict this.

Now you're resorting to lying. The only thing said about Ocarina of Time is that they made with the Seal War in mind.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

How? The Seal War story doesn't contain any information on how to even harm Ganon at all.

It warns people of what Ganon does and what precautions it takes to defeat him, such as using the Master Sword and using the help of the sages to seal him. The sages sealed him in both the Child Timeline and Adult Timeline, and since the sages in Twilight Princess were all old men rather than various races I think it's more plainly obvious that what gets passed down as knowledge of the old sages is their appearances as a set of old men.

The developers confirmed that OoT was the Seal War and no newer games contradict this.

WW retcons this. Hell, OoT retcons this.

Originally Posted by Big One

Umm...you're getting some details mixed up from here.

For one, the original timeline, before Wind Waker was...

Ocarina of Time -> Majora's Mask -> A Link to the Past -> Link's Awakening

Intentionally, at one time, there was a single timeline seemingly (unless the split timeline was planned ahead of time, which, that, no one knows).

The developers said that OoT was the Seal War. OoT didn't happen where MM was.

When the production of Wind Waker started, it was decided that Wind Waker would follow up on the Adult ending of Ocarina of Time rather than the Child ending which Majora's Mask followed, meaning iy was on a whole tier to itself when it comes to it's story, or, aka, it started it's own timeline.

It was decided under Aonuma that WW would follow up from the adult ending of OoT.

Tl;dr: A Link to the Past was never intended to be anywhere other than after Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess establishes quite clearly that A Link to the Past takes place sometime after it,...

OoT only happened on the AT.

...while there is nothing in Wind Waker to suggest A Link to the Past takes place after it.

And TP not setting up for ALttP's plot at all suggests ALttP takes place after it how?

Yeah, no. Clearly you don't know anything about game production here.

I know a lot about the production of TP.

For one, TP was intended to take place in the Adult Timeline at a time when the story wasn't even formed, and the very first trailer was released which actually wasn't gameplay but rather just tech to show off what the game will LOOK like.

That was in 2004, if I recall correctly, which was very shortly after TP was intended to be a sequel to WW. Of course the story wasn't finished at that point.

When the statement that TP took place on the same timeline as Wind Waker was made, TP wasn't even a video game nor did it have a real story.

TP was stated to be between OoT and WW in 2005. At that point, the game was pretty much finished but was delayed until 2006 (and then delayed again until close to the holiday season of 2006). The developers never said that TP was on the CT until 2006.

You might as well argue that since Minish Cap was intended to be the origin of the Master Sword, that the Four Sword = the Master Sword.

That intent was clearly changed by 2004, after they had removed the Master Sword from FSA and named the blade in TMC the Picori Blade.

Also, it doesn't matter what was intended, it matters what is intended.

When we aren't given clear current intent for certain games, we sometimes have to look into the original intent of other games to figure it out.

For example, FSA is hard to place without knowing it's original intent as well as the original intent for other games related to it.

As I said, that statement was made at time when the story was barely existent. All of the plot elements in the final game weren't thought of yet, and the original comment implied that the game was going to deal with the Flood hence why a lot of people expected it to back in the game's hype for release. It wasn't till the second trailer and the reveal of the game's name when we got the actual story...which was still in beta form cause Ganondorf wasn't even a part of it till a year later in development.

The plot was pretty much figured out by E3 2005.

There is nothing fanfiction about connecting those two games.

Saying that Ganondorf dying, all the pieces of the Triforce remaining in the Light World, and the Master Sword being south of Hyrule leading into an event where Ganondorf is alive and well and finds the Triforce in the Sacred Realm (where it had been since the Goddesses put it there), and the Master Sword is lost/west of Death Mountain sounds a lot like a fan fic.

The Master Sword's location links the location from Ocarina of Time to A Link to the Past by putting the Temple of Time in the Lost Woods, while there is absolutely nothing to connect Wind Waker with A Link to the Past.

There is nothing to connect either because they moved the Master Sword to a different forest rather than having a forest grow around where it originally was.

A Link to the Past also takes place in Old Hyrule, which is under the depths of waters in Wind Waker.

That was certain up until 2002. After that point, we don't know what Nintendo intends to be Old or New Hyrule.

None of this is fanfiction, but what IS fanfiction is suggesting that Old Hyrule rises from the waters and the Master Sword magically pops out of nowhere. That isn't theorizing, that's bull****ting.

You just haven't seen the theory from that point of view.

Now you're resorting to lying. The only thing said about Ocarina of Time is that they made with the Seal War in mind.

Liar.

Originally Posted by Miyamoto

(Ocarina of Time) and next is the Super Famicom one.

Originally Posted by Miyamoto

First comes: (OoT-->ALttp), then the first generation of games follow.

Originally Posted by Toru Osawa

In the SNES edition game, the story "Long ago, there was a war called the Imprisoning War" was passed along. A name in the Imprisoning War era is the name of a Town later. They were like "pseudo-secrets." We wanted to throw these out through the entirety of the game. That thing from then is now this.

Originally Posted by Satoru Takizawa

This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda.

It warns people of what Ganon does and what precautions it takes to defeat him, such as using the Master Sword and using the help of the sages to seal him. The sages sealed him in both the Child Timeline and Adult Timeline, and since the sages in Twilight Princess were all old men rather than various races I think it's more plainly obvious that what gets passed down as knowledge of the old sages is their appearances as a set of old men.

But Ganon only gets sealed twice in two different ways. It is much simpler to just assume that the Seal War was an actual event as it's implied to be.

Wow, being busy this weekend I missed a ton. I just skimmed the comments and I'll provide some generic defenses.

There is no evidence to the Triforce being a physical item. It simply is the way the Goddesses power is represented it Hyrule. It is an acquirable item, and it can be broken into parts, represented through jewelery (as in WW's ToW), etc. but it is just as much a symbol of the Goddesses' presence in Hyrule. Hence, no problem if it symbolizes the Goddesses in sending Link to the lands of OoX. However, many generations have passed rather than just a few years, it might have sounded like that and I'm sorry. Link returns straight after, but we see in MM that time may not be constant between worlds. The skull kid transformed Kafei a month before MM, but he enters Termina only minutes before Link. Likewise, a day of riding through woods may have translated to 100 years. A future Zelda has heard stories of Link, though, so she recognizes him but does not know him.

I place OoX here because it has Twinrova (CT), it allows for a more sensible reasoning to the intro and it provides a good reason for Ganon's inability to be resurrected. The secretive failed execution is a great fit. You could tack it on the end of TP but it makes it seem too tacked-on and irrelevant. It can't go anywhere after LttP because it has the MS in the linked game, and LttP's "Master sword sleeps forever" line.

As I said, all the games MC onward are in Old Hyrule. (LttP, too). WW explicitly tells us that the Deku Tree is working to raise Hyrule. I assume the best ending of each game is fulfilled, so Link helps out the Deku Tree and Koroks in perpetuating the trees and eventually their plan will work. Likewise, the best ending in MM means we get no split. With the land being recovered, there could be the old MS or a new one (It looks different and doesn't have the same powers as in the 3D games). Not the FS though, I was wrong.

There are some really huge FSA-LttP-LoZ connections (there are other threads I've seen on them, I won't get into it here) and LttP and AoL make pretty direct references to the Adult ending of OoT. So it's not unthinkable to string them after the WWS.

Since we don't experience history and backstories firsthand, they may not be accurate (along with the devs, which I'll address in a minute) and so we can say that maybe FSA, maybe OoT, or likely a combination are the IW. Likewise, maybe (MAYBE, JUST SPECULATION! I'm gonna have to find a way to make speculation tags if you guys can't tell, I'm annoyed that you're calling my timeline fanfic.) MC is actually the FSBS, and facts like Vaati's true origins or powers, and the story of his rise and fall, may be mixed up by time. I guess I've integrated the Literal Legend theory =).

Mind this whole time that the devs aren't perfect. To create a flawless timeline, they'd have needed to plan for the whole series' future when making the original. This is illogical, and as a video game their focus has been sales and fun rather than creating a flawless timeline. Aonuma has been trying ever since maybe WW to fill in the holes, but there's only so much you can put in a game to keep it flowing like a video game rather than a history textbook. He can only add in things that directly tie in to a story's plot, everything else seems irrelevant. This may be why we don't see certain races in certain games: Zelda is a video game first. Essentially, don't take it too literally. Get the main gist and move on.

Ugh...this is going to be complicated to respond to. Next time you post, don't quote every sentence. All of the individual sentences go with an individual paragraph that wraps up the point. You may think I waited a day to respond to this because I was stumped, and you'd be right...but only because there is so many points here that takes my sentences completely out of context it's ridiculous. Don't ask questions that are already answered like in this quote:

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

And TP not setting up for ALttP's plot at all suggests ALttP takes place after it how?

Which I already answered in the QUOTED post with:

Originally Posted by Big One

There is nothing fanfiction about connecting those two games. The Master Sword's location links the location from Ocarina of Time to A Link to the Past by putting the Temple of Time in the Lost Woods, while there is absolutely nothing to connect Wind Waker with A Link to the Past. A Link to the Past also takes place in Old Hyrule, which is under the depths of waters in Wind Waker. None of this is fanfiction, but what IS fanfiction is suggesting that Old Hyrule rises from the waters and the Master Sword magically pops out of nowhere. That isn't theorizing, that's bull****ting.

And by extension, this deepens the connection also:

Originally Posted by Big One

It warns people of what Ganon does and what precautions it takes to defeat him, such as using the Master Sword and using the help of the sages to seal him. The sages sealed him in both the Child Timeline and Adult Timeline, and since the sages in Twilight Princess were all old men rather than various races I think it's more plainly obvious that what gets passed down as knowledge of the old sages is their appearances as a set of old men.

I've been foruming for ages and quoting separate sentences out of context is just rude unless the actual point was a single sentence. Unless you have something decent to say about the specific sentence in question unlike...

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

I know a lot about the production of TP.

Or many of the other stuff I'm going to respond to, try to make a more educated opinion that isn't one-word or one-sentence responses.

And since some of your post painfully say the exact same thing, I'm going to have to put some of these quotes together.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

The developers said that OoT was the Seal War. OoT didn't happen where MM was.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

OoT only happened on the AT.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

Liar.

*snips*

There is various problems with the quotes you posted here. For one, they either don't suggest that the Seal War = Ocarina of Time, and/or they don't come from anyone who actually deals with the story. The final quote, which literally says the Seal War = Ocarina of Time, is made by Satoru Takizawa, the character designer of the game. Now let me tell you who was in control of Ocarina of Time: Shigeru Miyamoto (Designer), Takashi Tezuka (Designer), Eiji Aonuma (Co-Director). Specifically, these are the people that control the development of the game, and decide what gameplay elements, what characters, and what kind of story this game has. Without them, none of Satoru Takizawa's characters would be in the game. Out of all three of these people, only one of them cares about the story in Zelda deeply enough to make a woven mythology out of it...and that man is Eiji Aonuma, who designs and directs most of the Zelda games after Ocarina of Time.

Also, as Zelda wiki already covers on why the Seal War can't be Ocarina of Time:

Discrepancies

1. It is said that the King of Hyrule commanded the Seven Sages to seal the Golden Land in the legends of the Imprisoning War. Even though it is never stated in the game, he is presumed dead, and the noncanonical manga states that the King indeed died in Ocarina of Time following Ganondorf’s assault on Hyrule Castle.
2. The story of the Imprisoning War states that there was no Hero found who could wield the Master Sword, yet Link obviously did discover the sword and wielded it in Ocarina of Time.
3. The Seven Sages are of all different races in Ocarina of Time despite that in A Link to the Past their descendants, the Seven Maidens all appear to be humanoid.
4. Ganondorf is sealed in the Sacred Realm with only one piece of the Triforce in Ocarina of Time. In the backstory for A Link to the Past, he steals all three pieces together and makes his wish on the united Triforce.
5. The Knights of Hyrule are not nearly as prominent in Ocarina of Time as they are in the Imprisoning War story. Only one knight is seen in a back alley, and though his dialogue indicates he was killed by Ganon, the battle waged by the Knights to protect the Sages does not appear in Ocarina of Time.
6. Ganon could not figure out how to return to the Light World after the seal was cast. Two sequels to Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess both feature Ganon's return and death.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

It was decided under Aonuma that WW would follow up from the adult ending of OoT.

Wind Waker was always under Aonuma, not really sure what point you're trying to go at here...

Majora's Mask follows up on the child ending, and Wind Waker follows up on the adult ending. Both were decisions of Aonuma when creating the story for both.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

That was in 2004, if I recall correctly, which was very shortly after TP was intended to be a sequel to WW. Of course the story wasn't finished at that point.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

TP was stated to be between OoT and WW in 2005. At that point, the game was pretty much finished but was delayed until 2006 (and then delayed again until close to the holiday season of 2006). The developers never said that TP was on the CT until 2006.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

The plot was pretty much figured out by E3 2005.

Hate to break it to ya...but no, it really wasn't. By the time of the second trailer, we knew the characters Midna existed, Link turned into a Wolf, and the Twilight Realm existed. That isn't a semblance of story at all to define, "It was pretty much figured out." outside of the main plot and various story concepts.

If you had any understanding of video game development like you claim you do, ideas are usually thrown around, discarded, expanded upon drastically. The point you're trying to get to me is that the whole game was made in 2005 but delayed two years till release, but do you know the REASON why it was delayed? To make the game better and/or alter it, spending two years altering the story, characters, and gameplay itself is a hefty amount of time to alter the original intent for Twilight Princess.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

That intent was clearly changed by 2004, after they had removed the Master Sword from FSA and named the blade in TMC the Picori Blade.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

When we aren't given clear current intent for certain games, we sometimes have to look into the original intent of other games to figure it out.

For example, FSA is hard to place without knowing it's original intent as well as the original intent for other games related to it.

Umm...not really, considering the actual setting is the same as A Link to the Past's Hyrule, it tells a completely different story about a new Ganondorf, and how Ganon got the Trident of Power. We know that it was intended to be the Seal War, but that idea was cut, meaning it's not, but the actual plot and setting makes it a prequel to A Link to the Past, not it's original intention.

The actual map is more similar to A Link to the Past than the map of Legend of Zelda compared to Adventure of Link, the later meaning to be directly connected games.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

Saying that Ganondorf dying, all the pieces of the Triforce remaining in the Light World, and the Master Sword being south of Hyrule leading into an event where Ganondorf is alive and well and finds the Triforce in the Sacred Realm (where it had been since the Goddesses put it there), and the Master Sword is lost/west of Death Mountain sounds a lot like a fan fic.

That's too bad I never said any of that, I only said what's in the actual game. As I said, this is what connects Twilight Princess with A Link to the Past:

Originally Posted by Big One

There is nothing fanfiction about connecting those two games. The Master Sword's location links the location from Ocarina of Time to A Link to the Past by putting the Temple of Time in the Lost Woods, while there is absolutely nothing to connect Wind Waker with A Link to the Past. A Link to the Past also takes place in Old Hyrule, which is under the depths of waters in Wind Waker. None of this is fanfiction, but what IS fanfiction is suggesting that Old Hyrule rises from the waters and the Master Sword magically pops out of nowhere. That isn't theorizing, that's bull****ting.

The reason why it's Old Hyrule?

For one, New Hyrule uses train tracks as it's main mode of transportation, is connected by portal to the World of the Ocean King from Phantom Hourglass, has some highly advanced technology in general with references to film and other stuff that doesn't normally exist in the Zelda universe. In New Hyrule, the Master Sword is under the depths of the sea, severing any connection one could possibly have with A Link to the Past without resorting to creating elaborate fanfiction explaining why it's connected to A Link to the Past.

Now let's look at Twilight Princess, a game that undoubtedly takes place in Old Hyrule, directly sometime after Ocarina of Time. This game takes place in a considerable timespan in the limits of Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past ideal in terms of tech+fantasy setting. In Twilight Princess - without having to resort to fanfiction - you use the Master Sword to kill Ganondorf once and for all by finding it in the Temple of Time, now hidden under the weather of the woods. After using it, Link places the Master Sword back in the pedestal and it pans to a shot of the Master Sword that looks like this art piece from A Link to the Past:



Remember, I repeat, NONE of this is fanfiction. This happens in the realm of the canon, and unlike the people who are convinced that the boat = raft in the supposed connection between Oracles and Link's Awakening, this is an actual shot recreation of this art piece.

Another point is that A Link to the Past refers to how to use the Master Sword as: "The Hero's triumph on Cataclysm's Eve wins three Symbols of Virtue. The Master Sword he shall then receive, keeping the knights line true."

You do this in Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, and A Link to the Past to use the Master Sword to it's full potential. Now without assuming anything off-the-wall, in which timeline is it confirmed for the Master Sword that was from Ocarina of Time to still be up and running and working?

Not the Adult Timeline, cause we have no canon knowledge if it was ever recovered from the depths of the sea along with anything related to Old Hyrule; but one thing we do know, based on Twilight Princess a game that takes place in the CHILD Timeline, is that the Master Sword is in a woods that is structured like the Lost Woods.

There is undoubtedly more going for a Twilight Princess and A Link to the Past connection than there is a Wind Waker and A Link to the Past connection, sorry. There is literally nothing in Wind Waker that suggests a connection.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

There is nothing to connect either because they moved the Master Sword to a different forest rather than having a forest grow around where it originally was.

The Faron Woods WAS the Lost Woods of Twilight Princess, even though it wasn't in name, it had all of the elements of the Lost Woods from Ocarina of Time (probably a different Lost Woods, though) such as the Skull Kid and structure. You have no proof they touched the Master Sword from it's location, nor did anyone in Twilight Princess really know where it was except for Midna who pointed Link to the location of the sword.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

You just haven't seen the theory from that point of view.

Sorry, but it isn't a theory unless it has canon facts behind it. I admit the above stuff I spoke about is a theory, but that's only because there's no official confirmation on it yet. A theory is an idea formed from a semblance of facts, with nothing exists yet to suggest that Wind Waker takes place on the same timeline as A Link to the Past.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

But Ganon only gets sealed twice in two different ways. It is much simpler to just assume that the Seal War was an actual event as it's implied to be.

Ganon gets sealed three times. First time is in the Sacred Realm (Ocarina of Time), second is in the Twilight Realm (Twilight Princess), and the last is inside the Four Sword (Four Sword Adventures). Ganon was also sealed in the Seal War, a seemingly separate event.

Originally Posted by Big One

Ugh...this is going to be complicated to respond to. Next time you post, don't quote every sentence. All of the individual sentences go with an individual paragraph that wraps up the point. You may think I waited a day to respond to this because I was stumped, and you'd be right...but only because there is so many points here that takes my sentences completely out of context it's ridiculous.

I agree with you. A lot of users are responding sentence by sentence and I find it annoying as well. But being exposed to such a 'style' of debating ever since I joined the forums has caused me to 'adapt' to it as well. However, I'll try my best to improve on this.

Don't ask questions that are already answered like in this quote:

Which I already answered in the QUOTED post with:

And by extension, this deepens the connection also:

I've been foruming for ages and quoting separate sentences out of context is just rude unless the actual point was a single sentence.

Again, I apologize. I was actually meaning to ask: What else connects TP to ALttP other than "the Master Sword is in a forest"? I also didn't entirely understand what you said about the Sages, but upon reading it over again, I pretty much understand. I can't really debate it because people remembering the Sages as old men because they were old men is obviously more logical, so I'll just leave it at that.

Unless you have something decent to say about the specific sentence in question unlike...

Or many of the other stuff I'm going to respond to, try to make a more educated opinion that isn't one-word or one-sentence responses.

And since some of your post painfully say the exact same thing, I'm going to have to put some of these quotes together.

Again, I apologize for all this and I'll try to not make the same mistakes again. However, I know I do have very little experience when it comes to video game development, but I was a little offended by how you said I clearly "don't know anything about game production", so I felt like I had to say something. I am a lot more relaxed today, though, so I'll likely respond more politely.

There is various problems with the quotes you posted here. For one, they either don't suggest that the Seal War = Ocarina of Time, and/or they don't come from anyone who actually deals with the story. The final quote, which literally says the Seal War = Ocarina of Time, is made by Satoru Takizawa, the character designer of the game. Now let me tell you who was in control of Ocarina of Time: Shigeru Miyamoto (Designer), Takashi Tezuka (Designer), Eiji Aonuma (Co-Director). Specifically, these are the people that control the development of the game, and decide what gameplay elements, what characters, and what kind of story this game has. Without them, none of Satoru Takizawa's characters would be in the game. Out of all three of these people, only one of them cares about the story in Zelda deeply enough to make a woven mythology out of it...and that man is Eiji Aonuma, who designs and directs most of the Zelda games after Ocarina of Time.

I doubt Takizawa intended to lie to the Zelda fan base. If he didn't know what the real intent was behind OoT, he would have said so. If he did lie, some other developer would have appeared at some point to clarify everything. Takizawa also says "We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages". Who are the "we" he was referring to? I think that probably includes the people who made the story for OoT, since the story is what he was talking about. What we know is that the developers were dealing with the story of the Seal War when they made OoT, the story of OoT only happened on the 'Adult Timeline', and ALttP took place after OoT (before the concept of a Child Timeline existed), so it would seem that, at least at some point in time, OoT was intended to be the backstory for ALttP.

Also, as Zelda wiki already covers on why the Seal War can't be Ocarina of Time:

That's looking at the Seal War story from 1991. Here's the Seal War story from 1995:

A long time ago, the goddesses created this world. The goddesses left behind the holy golden triangle, the Triforce, as proof of their great power. The ruler of power, the governor of wisdom, the forger of courage; the Triforce carries these three crests and until the appropriate person comes, it sleeps unknown in the holy land.

“The Golden Power descended from the heavens rests somewhere. By touching it, the Gods will deliver you your desire.” This phrase was handed down in Hyrule. The Golden Power, the Triforce, when touched makes desires come true. The said legend attracted people and they scrambled to search for the holy land.

But the first to open the entrance to the holy land and lay their hands on the Triforce was the boss of a thief gang, Ganondorf. Indeed this is the time when the King of Evil, Ganon, was born. Before long Ganon's evil power spread across Hyrule, and one by one sinister events began to occur. So, the Hyrule king ordered the seven sages and the knights to seal the source of the evil power.

In order to repel an evil kidnapping of the Triforce, Hyrule's people were informed by a divine message from the gods to create the holy sword able to defeat evil power, the Master Sword. But, even with the seven sages it was not possible to handle the holy sword, the Master Sword.

Everyone waited for the hero who would be able to handle the holy sword, the Master Sword. But as they waited for the hero, Ganon's evil power reached the royal palace where an grand battle unfolded. After the fight in which there were many sacrifices and the sages were successful in their seal, it came to be called the Seal War. Once again, Hyrule was visited by peace.

This 'updated' version matches a lot more closely with the events seen in OoT, especially the "Everyone waited for the hero" part.

Wind Waker was always under Aonuma, not really sure what point you're trying to go at here...

Majora's Mask follows up on the child ending, and Wind Waker follows up on the adult ending. Both were decisions of Aonuma when creating the story for both.

Yes, that's sort of my point. Aonuma has created his own Zelda chronology out of OoT, MM, WW, PH, ST, and TP, but that doesn't necessarily mean that his chronology is meant to lead right into Miyamoto's chronology of OoT, ALttP, LoZ, and AoL.

Hate to break it to ya...but no, it really wasn't. By the time of the second trailer, we knew the characters Midna existed, Link turned into a Wolf, and the Twilight Realm existed. That isn't a semblance of story at all to define, "It was pretty much figured out." outside of the main plot and various story concepts.

This seems like a basic outline of a story:

Originally Posted by Aonuma

That character’s name is Midna, and she’s a character that exists in the original Twilight realm. When Link goes into the Twilight realm and transforms into the wolf, and encounters Midna, the two of them partner together and begin cooperating. What’s really going on, which isn’t really clear who Midna is or what her objectives are, but Midna has an objective in the Twilight realm, and kind of makes Link cooperate in trying to achieve that objective. But likewise Link needs Midna’s help to achieve the things he needs to achieve – so a partnership is formed.

Aonuma says here that the Twilight ties very deeply into the story and that he doesn't want to spoil it:

Originally Posted by Aonuma

I can’t really give you a whole lot of specific information about the Twilight because that would tie very deeply into the story, and we don’t want to spoil that at this point in time. What I can tell you is that in the Twilight realm, humans cannot exist in their human form. This is a large part of the reason why Link is transformed into the wolf. Additionally, essentially what had been the kingdom of Hyrule has been overtaken by this twilight, and been transformed into this Twilight realm. One of the objectives of the game is for Link to try to drive the twilight back.

Aonuma talks about how the identity of the Twilight Princess will be revealed more clearly when the game is played and how saving Zelda won't be the main focus of the game:

Originally Posted by Aonuma

To answer the question whether Twilight Princess speaks specifically to Princess Zelda, I think that would be revealed more clearly through the final gameplay. In some ways it may hint at Princess Zelda, but in some ways it may speak to other things as well, and I think that it’s something people can look forward to understanding as they play the game. In terms of Princess Zelda being kidnapped and having to be rescued, that’s not going to be our focus.

Implication of Ganondorf being in TP:

GI: We noticed that Link has the symbol of the Triforce on his hand, and there’s always been three parts of the Triforce. One is Link, one is Princess Zelda, and one has always been Ganon. Can we assume that we will all meet again?

Aonuma: You read into things quite well. (laughs)

More on what they had of the TP story at that point:

Q: When does this game take place?

A: This version takes place a few decades after Ocarina of Time and before Wind Waker.

Q: How will the adventure begin?

A: Link has two young friends in town. One of them is kidnapped by creatures who have invaded Hyrule from a place we call the Twilight. At first they appear as boar riders. Their leader has a horn that when blown opens the Twilight portal.

Q: Portals?

A: As the Twilight takes over more and more of Hyrule, you'll see these portals that evil beings and monsters will use to travel around. Once Link defeats them he can use a portal. They are a part of the game's transportation system.

Q: Is the child kidnapping by frightening creatures harsher than usual for Zelda?

A: If the story seems harsher than usual, we use that feeling at times to develop a sense of urgency. The sense of danger to the child creates a certain feeling. Hyrule is being transformed by the Twilight.

Q: Link also appears to transform into a wolf. Is that connected to the encroaching Twilight?

A: Yes, this is one of the key elements of the game. Basically, the Twilight is fueled by an evil magic power. As you know the idea of two realms coexisting in one plane has been used in Zelda before. You see early on that Link is mysteriously pulled into the Twilight as he searches for his friend. Link cannot exist as a human while in the Twilight area, but he is transformed into a wolf. Without giving away too much that is this Link's destiny.

Q: Early on there is someone in a robe that appears in the game.

A: It's not a secret: that is Princess Zelda.

Q: She looks sad and forlorn, which must be connected to the Twilight.

A: The robe the princess is wearing is based on a traditional robe worn in Japan for funerals. She is unable to stop the Twilight from affecting her land, so she is in mourning. She is definitely connected with Link's transformation into a wolf, but we shouldn't give away much more.

Q: How does Link becoming a wolf change the gameplay?

A: When Link becomes a wolf, he can't use his sword, but he has heightened senses like an animal. He can see things that humans cannot see, he can hear things that they cannot hear. He can talk to animals. He will meet up with another character who will be able to ride him. Some of his attributes will influenced by her.

Q: And who is this new character.

A: She is a resident of the Twilight realm who has an agenda that opposes the evil creatures. She sees the wolf, that is, Link as a means to help her accomplish her goals. So they form a cooperative relationship.

So whatever there was of the story as of E3 2005, it did include the wolf transformation, the Twilight Realm, Zelda, Midna, Ganondorf, etc.

If you had any understanding of video game development like you claim you do, ideas are usually thrown around, discarded, expanded upon drastically. The point you're trying to get to me is that the whole game was made in 2005 but delayed two years till release, but do you know the REASON why it was delayed? To make the game better and/or alter it, spending two years altering the story, characters, and gameplay itself is a hefty amount of time to alter the original intent for Twilight Princess.

I never claimed I had a complete understanding of video game development. Nonetheless, we can't know for sure why TP was delayed for about a year and a half (unless, of course, we can find an interview talking about the delays).

Umm...not really, considering the actual setting is the same as A Link to the Past's Hyrule, it tells a completely different story about a new Ganondorf, and how Ganon got the Trident of Power. We know that it was intended to be the Seal War, but that idea was cut, meaning it's not, but the actual plot and setting makes it a prequel to A Link to the Past, not it's original intention.

The actual map is more similar to A Link to the Past than the map of Legend of Zelda compared to Adventure of Link, the later meaning to be directly connected games.

Yeah, sorry about that. I couldn't really think about which game can only be placed by looking at original intent, so I just mentioned the first game that came to mind. What about TMC though? One of the only reasons why people think TMC goes before OoT is because of original intent.

Also, nothing can confirm that FSA was going to be the Seal War. All we know is that it had Sages, the Master Sword, and maybe a few other things, but that only means that it could have been a game that happened to involve those things. As for the similarities between FSA and ALttP, those are mostly due to the fact that a lot of the development team for FSA had also worked on ALttP (at least if I remember correctly).

That's too bad I never said any of that, I only said what's in the actual game. As I said, this is what connects Twilight Princess with A Link to the Past:

The reason why it's Old Hyrule?

For one, New Hyrule uses train tracks as it's main mode of transportation, is connected by portal to the World of the Ocean King from Phantom Hourglass, has some highly advanced technology in general with references to film and other stuff that doesn't normally exist in the Zelda universe. In New Hyrule, the Master Sword is under the depths of the sea, severing any connection one could possibly have with A Link to the Past without resorting to creating elaborate fanfiction explaining why it's connected to A Link to the Past.

You may not have said what I said you said, but that's generally what has to be believed in order for TP - ALttP to work. Anyway, I don't see how the World of the Ocean King has anything to do with which Hyrule ALttP takes place in (especially since it's nature is inconclusive), and Aonuma has stated that he doesn't intend for technology to have an impact on the series.

I do agree that ALttP is in Old Hyrule though.

Now let's look at Twilight Princess, a game that undoubtedly takes place in Old Hyrule, directly sometime after Ocarina of Time. This game takes place in a considerable timespan in the limits of Ocarina of Time and A Link to the Past ideal in terms of tech+fantasy setting. In Twilight Princess - without having to resort to fanfiction - you use the Master Sword to kill Ganondorf once and for all by finding it in the Temple of Time, now hidden under the weather of the woods. After using it, Link places the Master Sword back in the pedestal and it pans to a shot of the Master Sword that looks like this art piece from A Link to the Past:

I believe Aonuma said before (I'm not sure where; I don't have the interview on me) that ALttP was his favourite Zelda game. Why would TP not include a reference to it? And why should such a reference be taken as a timeline indicator when the books in the library in TMC should not?

Remember, I repeat, NONE of this is fanfiction. This happens in the realm of the canon, and unlike the people who are convinced that the boat = raft in the supposed connection between Oracles and Link's Awakening, this is an actual shot recreation of this art piece.

Actually, the boats from OoX and LA match up better than the Master Sword scenes in TP and ALttP:



On the left is the boat seen in the ending of OoX. On the right is the silhouette of the boat seen in the opening of LA.

Now look at what happens when I colour in the silhouette of the LA boat:



The boats match pixel by pixel (except for the sail which is rolled up for the storm in LA).

Anyway, fan fiction is required to explain the rest of the connections between TP and ALttP. The only valid connections I've seen so far are the Master Sword being in a forest, the Sages appearing as old men, and ALttP being in Old Hyrule (which was before the concept of New Hyrule, so it really isn't a fair argument).

Another point is that A Link to the Past refers to how to use the Master Sword as: "The Hero's triumph on Cataclysm's Eve wins three Symbols of Virtue. The Master Sword he shall then receive, keeping the knights line true."

You do this in Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, and A Link to the Past to use the Master Sword to it's full potential. Now without assuming anything off-the-wall, in which timeline is it confirmed for the Master Sword that was from Ocarina of Time to still be up and running and working?

Not the Adult Timeline, cause we have no canon knowledge if it was ever recovered from the depths of the sea along with anything related to Old Hyrule; but one thing we do know, based on Twilight Princess a game that takes place in the CHILD Timeline, is that the Master Sword is in a woods that is structured like the Lost Woods.

There is undoubtedly more going for a Twilight Princess and A Link to the Past connection than there is a Wind Waker and A Link to the Past connection, sorry. There is literally nothing in Wind Waker that suggests a connection.

You have presented a good argument with regards to the Master Sword, but I don't think it means that ALttP has to be on the CT. I actually see as much WW - ALttP connections as I do TP - ALttP connections. After all, one of the main concepts in the AT games is recovering ancient treasures.

The Faron Woods WAS the Lost Woods of Twilight Princess, even though it wasn't in name, it had all of the elements of the Lost Woods from Ocarina of Time (probably a different Lost Woods, though) such as the Skull Kid and structure. You have no proof they touched the Master Sword from it's location, nor did anyone in Twilight Princess really know where it was except for Midna who pointed Link to the location of the sword.

However, the Faron Woods are nowhere near where the Lost Woods are in ALttP. I may have no proof that the Master Sword's location was moved to Faron Woods, but you don't have proof either that it was moved back to its original resting place west of Death Mountain.

I don't think Midna knew where the Master Sword was though. I'm pretty sure the people who knew of it's location were Zelda and the Sages before Link got there and then "The Group" decided to go discover the Temple of Time ruins in the ending. Zelda told Link and Midna where it was and they went there together.

Sorry, but it isn't a theory unless it has canon facts behind it. I admit the above stuff I spoke about is a theory, but that's only because there's no official confirmation on it yet. A theory is an idea formed from a semblance of facts, with nothing exists yet to suggest that Wind Waker takes place on the same timeline as A Link to the Past.

I don't believe I have been saying that ALttP takes place on the same timeline as ALttP.

Ganon gets sealed three times. First time is in the Sacred Realm (Ocarina of Time), second is in the Twilight Realm (Twilight Princess), and the last is inside the Four Sword (Four Sword Adventures). Ganon was also sealed in the Seal War, a seemingly separate event.

I meant two times maximum on either timeline. Ganondorf is sealed once by the Sages in the OoT era on both timelines, and then he is sealed again in the Four Sword on the AT in FSA (in my theory).

SS-OoT-WW/PH-ST-MC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA-LoZ-AoL
...........\MM/OoX-TP

Nothing wrong except the MM/OoX continuity. The Triforce makes no sense in that situation.

@Beem: What's the argument about?

Originally Posted by Pinecove

@Beem: What's the argument about?

TP - ALttP

Basically, I'm just arguing that WW - ALttP not being perfect does not mean that ALttP automatically has to be on the Child Timeline.

There's also some original intent talk going on with regards to TP.

Yeah, TP-ALttP ideas may be influenced by TP's original placement of being after TWW, so saying TP-ALttP lines up perfectly on the child timeline is a bit weak, especially considering they took out the references to the Miror in FSA.

Apology accepted

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

I doubt Takizawa intended to lie to the Zelda fan base. If he didn't know what the real intent was behind OoT, he would have said so. If he did lie, some other developer would have appeared at some point to clarify everything. Takizawa also says "We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages". Who are the "we" he was referring to? I think that probably includes the people who made the story for OoT, since the story is what he was talking about. What we know is that the developers were dealing with the story of the Seal War when they made OoT, the story of OoT only happened on the 'Adult Timeline', and ALttP took place after OoT (before the concept of a Child Timeline existed), so it would seem that, at least at some point in time, OoT was intended to be the backstory for ALttP.

I don't think Takizawa lied, but rather, I would take the actual writer's and director's words over a character designer unless the character designer had other active elements over the game's design (such as Tetsuya Nomura on Kingdom Hearts). Character designers don't usually create the characters, but rather, they're told what characters TO create. Also, character designers tend to do their work rather early on in the development of the game's story; or, simultaneousness on their own schedule.

Whether Ocarina of Time was intended to be the backstory of A Link to the Past in it's conception is fairly irrelevant now, however. As we see in the current state of the series, the Ganondorf from the game is officially dead in both timelines canonically. Meaning the Ganondorf from A Link to the Past is a different one, or the old Ganondorf was resurrected. But I find the first explanation more likely due to FSA - which is set in pretty much the same Hyrule as ALttP is - explains that Ganondorf recently ruled over and was kicked out of the Gerudo tribe and obtains the Trident of Power sometime after that. FSA is effectively the origin story for the incarnation of Ganon that obtains the Trident of Power as his main source of power.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

That's looking at the Seal War story from 1991. Here's the Seal War story from 1995:

*snip*

This 'updated' version matches a lot more closely with the events seen in OoT, especially the "Everyone waited for the hero" part.

I wasn't aware that that Seal War was retold in 1995. Where is it from?

Regardless, while that is pretty solid evidence that Ocarina of Time was intended to be how the Seal War went down, I'm still not convinced that Ocarina of Time = Seal War is still a viable option of theory since we have new games in the series that pretty much retcon and/or contradict that, especially Ocarina of Time.

For example, if you consider Ocarina of Time to be the Seal War - following that revised exposition - then you also must accept that Ganondorf existed generations before Ocarina of Time since we now know that the Master Sword was created in a completely different timespan before Ocarina of Time. And while I don't know anything about Skyward Sword's story, it's highly probable that it'll abolish the explanation that the Master Sword was created to kill specifically Ganon(dorf). Later games, including Ocarina of Time, make this more ambiguous by saying that the Master Sword is a sword specifically meant to kill anything that is truly evil.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

This seems like a basic outline of a story:

*snip*

Aonuma says here that the Twilight ties very deeply into the story and that he doesn't want to spoil it:

*snip*

Aonuma talks about how the identity of the Twilight Princess will be revealed more clearly when the game is played and how saving Zelda won't be the main focus of the game:

*snip*

Implication of Ganondorf being in TP:
*snip*

More on what they had of the TP story at that point:

*snip*

So whatever there was of the story as of E3 2005, it did include the wolf transformation, the Twilight Realm, Zelda, Midna, Ganondorf, etc.

A lot of quotes here, a lot of the same stuff worded differently tbh.

But honestly, all of that is related to the main plot rather than the story. It serves as a basis for a larger story. In these interviews, we're introduced to various plot elements, and a lot of the stuff Aonuma is trying to keep secret could've been story elements that didn't even make it into the final game.

And as I said before, however...Twilight Princess can still be easily placed in between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker, but taking place parallel to it. One could view that in one timeline, the events of Twilight Princess went on, and in the other the events of the Great Flood was going on. Both were responsible by Ganondorf's doings. If you look at all of these interviews, Aonuma makes note that Twilight Princess takes place in between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker, but consistently misses the plot element of the Great Flood nor did interviews ask him about it.

The whole root of this argument is that you feel A Link to the Past possibly exists on the Adult Timeline because - at one time - Twilight Princess took place on the Adult Timeline, and you suggest stuff like the ending that alludes to a connection with A Link to the Past was still in tact.

This poses a very serious problem when it comes to continuity. For one, if the whole story w/Ganondorf was planned out, why would Aonuma have Ganondorf killed off and then mysteriously return in Wind Waker - a game that implies he's still alive and well since he became the reason for the Great Flood itself? Secondly, how would the Master Sword from Twilight Princess, now in an area of the ruins of the Temple of Time covered in woods, transfer into a completely undestroyed Temple of Time under the seas? In fact, the Temple of Time in Wind Waker was heavily expanded on from it's Ocarina of Time incarnation, with a statue of the Hero of Time and other things, meaning it was heavily taken care of compared to it's abandoned Twilight Princess counterpart.

My point is that, quite clearly, if Twilight Princess was intended to be on the Adult timeline in development with the whole story planned out, then none of these contradictions would exist.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

Yeah, sorry about that. I couldn't really think about which game can only be placed by looking at original intent, so I just mentioned the first game that came to mind. What about TMC though? One of the only reasons why people think TMC goes before OoT is because of original intent.

I disagree. While my own timeline keeps TMC on a level of ambiguity when it comes to placement, I feel there's enough reasoning to place TMC in a position before OoT. For one, Aonuma did say that the legend of the Four Sword creation is the oldest in the series (you know...the guy who recreated the Zelda canon basically), meaning whether TMC has the Master Sword or Four Sword really doesn't change anything other than what sword it's talking about.

TMC also takes place in a time of Hyrule where there's no monsters till Vaati releases a kind of pandora's box releasing them.

TMC's ending also says that this is the end of Link and Zelda's first adventure in pretty much all versions of the game.

And then there's the oh-so convincing argument that it tells the origin story for Link's hat...but I call hogwash on this one.

Of course, the most probable explanation for all this that all of these elements were intended for a Master Sword centric story, but they're still there, making them viable points of canonical contribution that places Minish Cap before Ocarina of Time. I could also imagine Minish Cap taking place before Skyward Sword also, but that is just baseless speculation.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

Also, nothing can confirm that FSA was going to be the Seal War. All we know is that it had Sages, the Master Sword, and maybe a few other things, but that only means that it could have been a game that happened to involve those things. As for the similarities between FSA and ALttP, those are mostly due to the fact that a lot of the development team for FSA had also worked on ALttP (at least if I remember correctly).

While this statement was technically true, the elements you spoke off were all cut unknowlingly. Aonuma said, in quote:

In an example with Four Swords Adventures, I was the producer.. I didn’t actually put the story for that game together... Mr. Miyamoto then came in and upended the tea table... we changed the story around quite a bit... storyline shouldn’t be something complicated that confuses the player... and the storyline changed all the way up until the very end

So the elements such as the sages involvement and the Master Sword, along with the inane amount of similarities the game had in general, it could've intentionally been made the Seal War. Or, it's very likely it was.

But even then, it's possible intended story isn't what I argue for FSA being a prequel to ALttP. As I argue in this post before:

Originally Posted by Big One

Whether Ocarina of Time was intended to be the backstory of A Link to the Past in it's conception is fairly irrelevant now, however. As we see in the current state of the series, the Ganondorf from the game is officially dead in both timelines canonically. Meaning the Ganondorf from A Link to the Past is a different one, or the old Ganondorf was resurrected. But I find the first explanation more likely due to FSA - which is set in pretty much the same Hyrule as ALttP is - explains that Ganondorf recently ruled over and was kicked out of the Gerudo tribe and obtains the Trident of Power sometime after that. FSA is effectively the origin story for the incarnation of Ganon that obtains the Trident of Power as his main source of power.

FSA is also one of the very few games in the series that have actual directly related maps to another game in the series, which I'd only list as:

OoT and TP
FSA and ALttP
LoZ and AoL

Are pretty much the only maps that don't take any note of hefty speculation to determine the places that match up. Ocarina of Time's map is also similar to A Link to the Past's map in some ways (but it's not as blatant), meaning you can't really place A Link to the Past anywhere but the Child Timeline.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

You may not have said what I said you said, but that's generally what has to be believed in order for TP - ALttP to work. Anyway, I don't see how the World of the Ocean King has anything to do with which Hyrule ALttP takes place in (especially since it's nature is inconclusive), and Aonuma has stated that he doesn't intend for technology to have an impact on the series.

I do agree that ALttP is in Old Hyrule though.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

Anyway, fan fiction is required to explain the rest of the connections between TP and ALttP. The only valid connections I've seen so far are the Master Sword being in a forest, the Sages appearing as old men, and ALttP being in Old Hyrule (which was before the concept of New Hyrule, so it really isn't a fair argument).

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

You have presented a good argument with regards to the Master Sword, but I don't think it means that ALttP has to be on the CT. I actually see as much WW - ALttP connections as I do TP - ALttP connections. After all, one of the main concepts in the AT games is recovering ancient treasures.

Not really...I can't really explain how TP leads into ALttP since there isn't a game yet to fill in the gaps, but I don't rely on fanfiction to explain what happened in between the two games. As I said before, there's simply more going for ALttP's placement in the Child Timeline than there is in the Adult Timeline, hence why I feel that way.

I hope you explain to me how TWW leads into ALttP and still is Old Hyrule, but I expect it would the reasoning that the Deku trees revive the Old Hyrule from the waters, since that is the most common argument people have when putting A Link to the Past on the Adult Timeline. Even though that theory has no basis of canon, I'll explain exactly why that is flawed in leading into A Link to the Past.

Let's say the above happened, and all is well. New Hyrule and Old Hyrule combine into a single kingdom, years before ALttP or FSA or the first to games. Centuries in fact.

Now, here is the various questions you have to assess to yourself:

• Where is the Temple of Time? If the Old Hyrule from Wind Waker was risen from the waters, then the Temple of Time would too. The Master Sword would also be placed in a stone (dead) Ganondorf.
• Why would the Hylians abandoned trains as a form of transportation in favor of walking?
• Why are the descendants of the original sages all Hylian if they were of different races?
• Why did Sea Zoras remained unevolved in OoX, a game that takes place in the same timespan as ALttP?
• Where did the Koroks go? Why is the precursors of the Kokiri, the lumberjacks (kikori) in the Adult Timeline?

All of these problems can be addressed by one thing: It doesn't take place in the Adult Timeline.

Twilight Princess at least has an explanation that the Temple of Time was weathered down into a series of woods structured like the Lost Woods.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

I believe Aonuma said before (I'm not sure where; I don't have the interview on me) that ALttP was his favourite Zelda game. Why would TP not include a reference to it? And why should such a reference be taken as a timeline indicator when the books in the library in TMC should not?

Well I suppose the same way he could not insert a reference to A Link to the Past in Wind Waker.

Also, the books speak of a joke that have no specific origin in the series, so I don't think it's a viable piece of timeline debate. It could be a lot of things. Some in-canon comedian could've made it up or all we know. Aka, it isn't that important.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

Actually, the boats from OoX and LA match up better than the Master Sword scenes in TP and ALttP:



On the left is the boat seen in the ending of OoX. On the right is the silhouette of the boat seen in the opening of LA.

Now look at what happens when I colour in the silhouette of the LA boat:



The boats match pixel by pixel (except for the sail which is rolled up for the storm in LA).

Fair enough, you got me on this, but let's try to stay on topic.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

However, the Faron Woods are nowhere near where the Lost Woods are in ALttP. I may have no proof that the Master Sword's location was moved to Faron Woods, but you don't have proof either that it was moved back to its original resting place west of Death Mountain.

I don't think Midna knew where the Master Sword was though. I'm pretty sure the people who knew of it's location were Zelda and the Sages before Link got there and then "The Group" decided to go discover the Temple of Time ruins in the ending. Zelda told Link and Midna where it was and they went there together.

How can you even determine that, dude? I'm confused on this...TP and ALttP probably take place apart by centuries I'd imagine (just an estimate) if they were on the same timeline. Also, TP Wii's map matches extremely well to ALttP's map if you turn it 90 degrees clockwise.

On the subject of the known location of the Master Sword, that's also true, but I have a feeling the reason why it was ruins rather than taken care of was probably because there was a lack of interest of it's location in TP's time...or, the beginnings of people just plainly forgetting about it.

Just reposting this. I'll let Beem take care of the other stuff as I'm involved in enough debates already, but I couldn't resist adding this in:

Yeah, TP-ALttP ideas may be influenced by TP's original placement of being after TWW, so saying TP-ALttP lines up perfectly on the child timeline is a bit weak, especially considering they took out the references to the Miror in FSA.

Originally Posted by Big One

I don't think Takizawa lied, but rather, I would take the actual writer's and director's words over a character designer unless the character designer had other active elements over the game's design (such as Tetsuya Nomura on Kingdom Hearts). Character designers don't usually create the characters, but rather, they're told what characters TO create. Also, character designers tend to do their work rather early on in the development of the game's story; or, simultaneousness on their own schedule.

Still... no one bothered to come out and say otherwise, and nothing else all the other developers had said around that time contradicted Takizawa's statement at all. There's also the fact that we have no words to believe over those of the character designer's, so what he says is the only thing to take. How would the timeline have worked anyway if OoT wasn't the Seal War?

Whether Ocarina of Time was intended to be the backstory of A Link to the Past in it's conception is fairly irrelevant now, however. As we see in the current state of the series, the Ganondorf from the game is officially dead in both timelines canonically. Meaning the Ganondorf from A Link to the Past is a different one, or the old Ganondorf was resurrected. But I find the first explanation more likely due to FSA - which is set in pretty much the same Hyrule as ALttP is - explains that Ganondorf recently ruled over and was kicked out of the Gerudo tribe and obtains the Trident of Power sometime after that. FSA is effectively the origin story for the incarnation of Ganon that obtains the Trident of Power as his main source of power.

Regardless, while that is pretty solid evidence that Ocarina of Time was intended to be how the Seal War went down, I'm still not convinced that Ocarina of Time = Seal War is still a viable option of theory since we have new games in the series that pretty much retcon and/or contradict that, especially Ocarina of Time.

I hope you explain to me how TWW leads into ALttP and still is Old Hyrule, but I expect it would the reasoning that the Deku trees revive the Old Hyrule from the waters, since that is the most common argument people have when putting A Link to the Past on the Adult Timeline. Even though that theory has no basis of canon, I'll explain exactly why that is flawed in leading into A Link to the Past.

Let's say the above happened, and all is well. New Hyrule and Old Hyrule combine into a single kingdom, years before ALttP or FSA or the first to games. Centuries in fact.

Now, here is the various questions you have to assess to yourself:

• Where is the Temple of Time? If the Old Hyrule from Wind Waker was risen from the waters, then the Temple of Time would too. The Master Sword would also be placed in a stone (dead) Ganondorf.
• Why would the Hylians abandoned trains as a form of transportation in favor of walking?
• Why are the descendants of the original sages all Hylian if they were of different races?
• Why did Sea Zoras remained unevolved in OoX, a game that takes place in the same timespan as ALttP?
• Where did the Koroks go? Why is the precursors of the Kokiri, the lumberjacks (kikori) in the Adult Timeline?

All of these problems can be addressed by one thing: It doesn't take place in the Adult Timeline.

Twilight Princess at least has an explanation that the Temple of Time was weathered down into a series of woods structured like the Lost Woods.

Well I suppose the same way he could not insert a reference to A Link to the Past in Wind Waker.

The whole root of this argument is that you feel A Link to the Past possibly exists on the Adult Timeline because - at one time - Twilight Princess took place on the Adult Timeline, and you suggest stuff like the ending that alludes to a connection with A Link to the Past was still in tact.

Oh whoops, sorry. I guess I never clarified my timeline. In my timeline, I place ALttP on a different version of the AT where the Hero of Time hadn't been sent back in time and the Great Flood hadn't occurred. This concept allows for Miyamoto's timeline to technically be connected to Aonuma's timeline without any flaws outside of developer intent. So basically, Aonuma's split timeline (specifically the Great Flood and WW) essentially 'overwrites' ALttP and LoZ. This even allows for ALttP to take place in Old Hyrule (which we can both agree is where it makes more sense).

I wasn't aware that that Seal War was retold in 1995. Where is it from?

It's from the opening of BS LoZ. Sure, you may not consider the game itself canon, but it does show certain 1995 intent (like the Seal War, LoZ Ganon having a trident, etc.).

For example, if you consider Ocarina of Time to be the Seal War - following that revised exposition - then you also must accept that Ganondorf existed generations before Ocarina of Time since we now know that the Master Sword was created in a completely different timespan before Ocarina of Time. And while I don't know anything about Skyward Sword's story, it's highly probable that it'll abolish the explanation that the Master Sword was created to kill specifically Ganon(dorf). Later games, including Ocarina of Time, make this more ambiguous by saying that the Master Sword is a sword specifically meant to kill anything that is truly evil.

You must have only read the American version of the ALttP manual. That version had a few mistranslations. Here's what the Japanese version says about the creation of the Master Sword:

Originally Posted by A Link to the Past Manual

The Triforce itself cannot judge between good and evil. That is because only the gods can do that.
However, it could not be assumed that only a good person would get their hands on the Triforce.
For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane.
It was called the Master Sword, and it is said that only a true hero could use it.

So the Master Sword was originally intended to be created 'just in case' someone evil were to claim the Triforce. It has nothing to do with Ganon.

A lot of quotes here, a lot of the same stuff worded differently tbh.

But honestly, all of that is related to the main plot rather than the story. It serves as a basis for a larger story. In these interviews, we're introduced to various plot elements, and a lot of the stuff Aonuma is trying to keep secret could've been story elements that didn't even make it into the final game.

So what do you suppose hadn't been figured out yet at that time?

And as I said before, however...Twilight Princess can still be easily placed in between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker, but taking place parallel to it. One could view that in one timeline, the events of Twilight Princess went on, and in the other the events of the Great Flood was going on. Both were responsible by Ganondorf's doings. If you look at all of these interviews, Aonuma makes note that Twilight Princess takes place in between Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker, but consistently misses the plot element of the Great Flood nor did interviews ask him about it.

Oh, I completely agree on your view of TP taking place at the same time as the Great Flood but on the CT; that's how it is on my timeline.

This poses a very serious problem when it comes to continuity. For one, if the whole story w/Ganondorf was planned out, why would Aonuma have Ganondorf killed off and then mysteriously return in Wind Waker - a game that implies he's still alive and well since he became the reason for the Great Flood itself? Secondly, how would the Master Sword from Twilight Princess, now in an area of the ruins of the Temple of Time covered in woods, transfer into a completely undestroyed Temple of Time under the seas? In fact, the Temple of Time in Wind Waker was heavily expanded on from it's Ocarina of Time incarnation, with a statue of the Hero of Time and other things, meaning it was heavily taken care of compared to it's abandoned Twilight Princess counterpart.

My point is that, quite clearly, if Twilight Princess was intended to be on the Adult timeline in development with the whole story planned out, then none of these contradictions would exist.

So I guess the Temple of Time, Ganondorf's state at the end of the game, the state of the Master Sword, and the general ending are the things that weren't figured out yet, correct?

I disagree. While my own timeline keeps TMC on a level of ambiguity when it comes to placement, I feel there's enough reasoning to place TMC in a position before OoT. For one, Aonuma did say that the legend of the Four Sword creation is the oldest in the series (you know...the guy who recreated the Zelda canon basically), meaning whether TMC has the Master Sword or Four Sword really doesn't change anything other than what sword it's talking about.

I agree that TMC before OoT can still work to some degree, but Aonuma did say that they were only "thinking" of it as being the oldest tale and also said that he didn't work on the Four Swords games, so I don't think very much of what he said can be very conclusive. TMC definitely was before OoT though.

TMC also takes place in a time of Hyrule where there's no monsters till Vaati releases a kind of pandora's box releasing them.

TMC's ending also says that this is the end of Link and Zelda's first adventure in pretty much all versions of the game.

And then there's the oh-so convincing argument that it tells the origin story for Link's hat...but I call hogwash on this one.

Monsters certainly did exist in Hyrule before Vaati released them from the Bound Chest though. I never really saw any sense in this point....

Actually, the only version of the game that had the "Link's first adventure" line was the Japanese version. All the European versions that were released later did not include this line when they were translated. NoA then came along and said that TMC would be released in North America later because they were going to translate the game directly from the Japanese and weren't going to rush the translation like NoE did. When North America finally got TMC, we found that the "Link's first adventure" line had been removed from that version as well, even though it was supposed to be a much better translation than those of Europe, so there seems to have been some sort of change in intent shortly following the Japanese release of TMC. (Keep in mind, though, that some of this information may not be 100% accurate; I'm working from memory here.)

As for the hat argument, I believe that it was a valid point when the intent called for it (as in when TMC was before OoT).

Of course, the most probable explanation for all this that all of these elements were intended for a Master Sword centric story, but they're still there, making them viable points of canonical contribution that places Minish Cap before Ocarina of Time. I could also imagine Minish Cap taking place before Skyward Sword also, but that is just baseless speculation.

Still though... this is why we need to look more into original intent: to distinguish what may or may not be 'accidentally' leftover intent... if that's even possible. Regardless, original intent is still fun to know.

While this statement was technically true, the elements you spoke off were all cut unknowlingly. Aonuma said, in quote:

So the elements such as the sages involvement and the Master Sword, along with the inane amount of similarities the game had in general, it could've intentionally been made the Seal War. Or, it's very likely it was.
But even then, it's possible intended story isn't what I argue for FSA being a prequel to ALttP. As I argue in this post before:

I agree that FSA was intended to be a new Seal War, but I just don't think it's right to use that as an argument when nothing can specifically confirm it.

FSA is also one of the very few games in the series that have actual directly related maps to another game in the series, which I'd only list as:

OoT and TP
FSA and ALttP
LoZ and AoL

Are pretty much the only maps that don't take any note of hefty speculation to determine the places that match up. Ocarina of Time's map is also similar to A Link to the Past's map in some ways (but it's not as blatant), meaning you can't really place A Link to the Past anywhere but the Child Timeline.

Again, map similarities between FSA and ALttP can be due to the ALttP developers that were working on it.

Not really...I can't really explain how TP leads into ALttP since there isn't a game yet to fill in the gaps, but I don't rely on fanfiction to explain what happened in between the two games. As I said before, there's simply more going for ALttP's placement in the Child Timeline than there is in the Adult Timeline, hence why I feel that way.

Can't I say the exact same thing from an AT perspective?

Also, the books speak of a joke that have no specific origin in the series, so I don't think it's a viable piece of timeline debate. It could be a lot of things. Some in-canon comedian could've made it up or all we know. Aka, it isn't that important.

What joke is that? The Triumph Forks reference translates to "wash bucket (or some sort of bucket) and hose" while the Oracle games reference translates to the names of some seeds or something, leading some people to think that it's supposed to be a joke on a shelf about gardening, but when a translator was asked about this, he replied that that was simply not true....

How can you even determine that, dude? I'm confused on this...TP and ALttP probably take place apart by centuries I'd imagine (just an estimate) if they were on the same timeline. Also, TP's map matches extremely well to ALttP's map if you turn it 90 degrees clockwise.

Well, the Faron Woods are south of Hyrule while the ALttP Lost Woods are in Hyrule and to the west of Death Mountain (pretty much the same location as the Temple of Time in OoT). There is nothing to indicate that the TP map needs to be rotated, but if anything, it should be rotated the same way the OoT map was implied to be by the "second north arrow" (45 degrees counterclockwise).

On the subject of the known location of the Master Sword, that's also true, but I have a feeling the reason why it was ruins rather than taken care of was probably because there was a lack of interest of it's location in TP's time...or, the beginnings of people just plainly forgetting about it.

True, but TP shows a progression of more people gradually coming to know of the ruins of the Temple of Time.