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Old 10-03-2010, 08:24 PM
Gold Knight Gold Knight is a male United States Gold Knight is offline
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New Seal War theory

Recently, there have been several attempts to reconcile the sequence between OoT and ALttP with the supposed disconnection caused by TWW. Whether by having the seal transcend time or by having MM cause another split, theorists have tried to put ALttP shortly after OoT while avoiding TWW. But the main problem with these theories is that they put ALttP in the child timeline. If OoT were truly part of ALttP’s backstory, then ALttP would have to come on the adult timeline. Here is my take on the situation and how I suggest we solve this problem.

As we know, OoT was originally designed to portray the Seal War, which was ALttP’s backstory. Even back then, there were inconsistencies between OoT’s story and ALttP’s BS (like the lack of the Hylian Knights, the presence of a hero, and Ganon being sealed with only the Triforce of Power), but those differences were often attributed to retcons. Then, TWW came along as a direct sequel to OoT, breaking the seal on the Dark World and killing Ganondorf. As a result, the connection from OoT to ALttP was seemingly lost, since TWW ended ALttP before it even began. Even if ALttP were set in New Hyrule after TWW, there is no way that OoT could still be the SW.

In 2004, FSA came out, and it seemed to have strong connections with ALttP. FSA featured the origin of a new Ganon and his signature weapon, the Trident, and the Hylian Knights are killed. It had a Dark World, and the thieves from Kakariko Village and the Lost Woods in ALttP are founded. In addition, the geography of Hyrule in FSA is very similar to that of ALttP’s Hyrule. Perhaps the biggest connection is the ending, where Ganon is sealed in the Four Sword by the seven Shrine Maidens. However, even FSA cannot truly be the SW. It does not give an explanation for Dark World, and Ganon is not sealed there. The Triforce and the Master Sword are not involved at all. Even if you speculate that the Four Sword was further sealed in the Sacred Realm and that Ganon broke out (using the broken Four Sword in ALttP GBA’s Dark World as evidence), it would still be a stretch to call FSA the SW. When we examine beta elements from FSA, we see references to both the Master Sword and Sages, meaning that FSA was likely even more strongly connected with ALttP early in development, possibly even being the SW. But now, it seems like no single game really shows the SW.

In review, OoT was made to be the SW, but TWW pretty much destroyed the possibility of a direct connection. FSA also had connections with ALttP, but its story does not fully match the SW either. Some theorists claim that the SW is a separate event, not shown in any of the games. But according to the OoT Virtual Console website, OoT is still, as of 2007, meant to be the SW. How do we make sense of all this?

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What I propose is that there was more than one Seal War. Specifically, both OoT and FSA can be considered seal wars, with the account from ALttP being a synthesis of those two conflicts. The fact that the events of OoT were known as “one of the legends of which the people speak” in TWW means that they were, at least in part, remembered, and the intro to ALttP describes the conflict as “obscured by the mists of time,” meaning that it is quite possible for the tales to get mixed together. In this sequence of events, SW1 (OoT) would show Ganondorf entering the Sacred Realm and touching the Triforce, thus corrupting it into the Dark World. The seven Sages then seal Ganondorf in the Dark World, along with his Triforce of Power. He escapes, the flood occurs, and centuries later, TWW occurs. The entire Triforce is united and floats away, presumably back to the Sacred Realm. That Ganondorf is then killed. Centuries later in New Hyrule, a new Ganondorf steals the Trident and Dark Mirror and starts SW2. In it, the Hylian Knights are killed, and Ganon is sealed this time by the seven Shrine Maidens. In addition, the absence of the Master Sword fits with it missing and the people having to search for its existence in the ALttP BS. This idea still involves the assumption that the Four Sword was later sealed in the Sacred Realm, and that Ganon broke out and was then able to reach the whole Triforce. This would leave the broken Four Sword to be found in the Palace of the Four Sword in ALttP GBA.

The main advantage to this idea is that it allows us to bring developer intent together with the actual events of the games. Since in this case OoT was a Seal War, the ALttP BS can include it and the Seal War from FSA. Together, these two conflicts form the most complete version of the story. The weaknesses of this idea are the reliance on speculated events following FSA and on the people continuing to pass down the legend of the Hero of Time even after they settle in New Hyrule.

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Tl;dr Both OoT and FSA are Seal Wars. Due to the long amount of time these tales are passed down, they eventually merged into one to form the ALttP backstory. The main point of this theory is to reconcile developer intent with the actual events from the games. So, what do you think? Could this work? If you have anything to add, any mistakes to point out, any problems with this, then be sure to comment.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:56 PM
GrimmyV GrimmyV is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

OoT--TWW/PH--ST--TMC--FS/FSA--ALttP?

I guess it could work, since New Hyrule ALttP could explain why Kakariko is to the west when in OoT it was in the east. It would also explain why no non-monstrous Zoras are in ALttP.

However I think it's more likely that the SW was a seperate event from any game, but then I believe Nintendo screwed up their SW intent with OoT from the get-go and Miyamoto is a liar and/or crazy... you know like Lucas.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:50 PM
Wilian Wilian is a male United_States Wilian is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

GrimmyV i agree with the timeline you got OoT--TWW/PH--ST--TMC--FS/FSA--ALttP?
Cause when you look at the end of ST and TMC in each of them Zelda and Link become friends in ST and then TMC they are friends as much that the Story in ALttP doesn't match OoT history this maybe the fact since ST took place about 100 years later after PH so most of the histroy of OoT is forgot
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:58 PM
GrimmyV GrimmyV is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Between OoT and ALttP in that timeline there would be hundreds of years, possibly 1000 years or more. I'm sure almost every bit of OoT would have been forgotten except for what ever Tetra and her family knew, which obviously wasn't much.

OoT--TWW many hundreds of years, including at least a few generations between OoT and the flood

TWW to ST about one hundred years

ST to TMC at least a few hundred years between Hero of Man and TMC (minish only appear on the festival day every hundred years requiring at least one other appearence before TMC) plus what ever time paces after ST till the HoM.

TMC to FSA hard to say, but probably much more than a century

FSA--ALttP several generations to hundreds of years, depending which quotes you consider more correct

All together that makes a LONG time.
Last Edited by GrimmyV; 10-03-2010 at 10:06 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:16 PM
Wilian Wilian is a male United_States Wilian is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Yea and by then most people would have forgot about what happen but there one problem what about Ganon apparences in ALttP he appears in the game but he should be underwater after TWW happen
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Old 10-04-2010, 12:01 AM
GrimmyV GrimmyV is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
Yea and by then most people would have forgot about what happen but there one problem what about Ganon apparences in ALttP he appears in the game but he should be underwater after TWW happen
FSA features a new Ganon that next appears in ALttP. As far as FSA Ganon also being from the desert and a Gerudo, I guess you can say history was repeating itself in New Hyrule.

I actually don't like 'AT heavy' timelines because I think OoT--TWW/PH--ST is so clean and neat it doesn't need to be complicated with the FSS or other 2D games. But sometimes I like to see if anyone has anything new to say about a basically older theory.
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Old 10-04-2010, 02:44 AM
Wilian Wilian is a male United_States Wilian is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

True that might be the case but new hyrule ganon died too in ALttP
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:39 AM
GrimmyV GrimmyV is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
True that might be the case but new hyrule ganon died too in ALttP
That's no problem as long as you don't put LoZ/AoL after ALttP (which was the original order, but still required an unseen revival of Ganon to work).
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:43 PM
Aiden Aiden is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

I think that OoT was just the beginning of the Imprisoning War. In OoT, the path to the Sacred Realm was opened. Many knights died in the 7 years Link was gone in the adult timeline in OoT, and many knights presumably died fighting Ganon and his forces in TWW's backstory. Link, Tetra (Zelda), and Ganondorf fight for the entire Triforce in TWW. All we need in the adult timeline to finish the IW is one more game, which is not FSA. We need a game in which (1)the Master Swords is rediscovered, (2)the entire Triforce is rediscovered, and (3)Ganon is sealed in the Dark World with the entire Triforce (or at least part, as long as an explanation is given as to why the other pieces are present at the end of ALttP). Given enough details, this game could be different enough from OoT. What could also help end the IW arc is this 3D remake of ALttP that Aonuma has been hinting at for a while now.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:43 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Welcome to 2006.
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Old 10-07-2010, 04:39 PM
Cukeman Cukeman is a male United States Cukeman is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Average Gamer said it best:
(bold text is mine)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Gamer View Post

(ALttP) Maiden:
"And then the Sages and the Knights sealed Ganon and brought Hyrule peace."

(ALttP) Link:
"So, that same guy from the story is the guy behind the recent disasters that were going on and that shady priest, Agahnim ?"

Maiden:
"Oh, definitely not! That story was completely resolved ages ago. This current situation has nothing to do with it."

Link:
"Then why'd you tell me it?"

Maiden:
"Dunno."
If the ALttP backstory talks about the OoT seal,
why the heck would the maidens tell that story to ALttP Link?
It's the backstory to ALttP for a reason.
OoT is the backstory to The Wind Waker.
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Last Edited by Cukeman; 10-07-2010 at 05:04 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 10-07-2010, 06:33 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cukeman View Post
If the ALttP backstory talks about the OoT seal,
why the heck would the maidens tell that story to ALttP Link?
It's the backstory to ALttP for a reason.
"These events were obscured by the mists of time, and became legend."
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:19 PM
Cukeman Cukeman is a male United States Cukeman is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

But they weren't obscured to the degree that the ALttP maidens think that
OoT tells how ALttP Ganon got sealed in the SR with the complete Triforce
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:03 PM
Aiden Aiden is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

It could also be possible that Ganon only has the Triforce of Power, and the Triforce of Wisdom and Courage are present because Zelda and Link are present at the end of ALttP.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:17 PM
Gold Knight Gold Knight is a male United States Gold Knight is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Already? Then a new Zelda game for Wii must be coming out soon.

In all seriousness though, your theory is completely different from mine. You suggested completely separating ALttP from the SW. The quotes from ALttP at the beginning of that thread about the Knights all refer back to the SW account from the manual. While I like the connections you showed between FSA and ALttP, I completely disagree that the SW is no longer ALttP's backstory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiden
It could also be possible that Ganon only has the Triforce of Power, and the Triforce of Wisdom and Courage are present because Zelda and Link are present at the end of ALttP.
Not really because Zelda is not present during the scene with the Triforce, and the Triforce says that Ganon made his wish on the whole Triforce.
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Old 10-09-2010, 12:32 PM
LegendofLex LegendofLex is a male LegendofLex is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold Knight View Post
You suggested completely separating ALttP from the SW.
I did not.

I suggested that the FSA events were synthesized with the events surrounding the Triforce, and that this would explain why FSA co-opted a number of details not covered in OoT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cukeman
But they weren't obscured to the degree that the ALttP maidens think that
OoT tells how ALttP Ganon got sealed in the SR with the complete Triforce
Clearly they were. The most recent developer intent necessitates it.
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:10 PM
Aiden Aiden is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gold Knight View Post
Not really because Zelda is not present during the scene with the Triforce, and the Triforce says that Ganon made his wish on the whole Triforce.
Zelda is in the crystal that is in Link's possession. Also, Ganondorf DID make his wish on the whole Triforce in OoT. It just wasn't granted, and the Triforce split up.
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:45 PM
Average Gamer Average Gamer is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiden
Zelda is in the crystal that is in Link's possession. Also, Ganondorf DID make his wish on the whole Triforce in OoT. It just wasn't granted, and the Triforce split up.
I don't see why the Triforce would bother to mention Ganon's wish if it was never granted in the first place. Also, all three pieces of the Triforce are clearly in the chamber before Link enters it, and the pieces come from the same place to boot. It's highly unlikely that Link and Zelda held the ToC and ToW during the game.
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Last Edited by Average Gamer; 10-09-2010 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Reply With Quote
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:02 PM
Aiden Aiden is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by Average Gamer View Post
I don't see why the Triforce would bother to mention Ganon's wish if it was never granted in the first place. Also, all three pieces of the Triforce are clearly in the chamber before Link enters it, and the pieces come from the same place to boot. It's highly unlikely that Link and Zelda held the ToC and ToW during the game.
Yeah, they are all clearly in the same room. Isn't it possible that the Triforce just reformed in the other room. The reason the Triforce would mention Ganon's wish if it wasn't granted is because ALttP was written before OoT. At that time, it had not been retconned that Ganon's wish wasn't granted and that he only got the the Triforce of Power. Why would the remake mention the wish, then, you might ask. Well, GBA ALttP still seems to imply that Ganon obtained the entire Triforce during the IW. Just because it is a remake, that doesn't mean that they will perfectly update everything to fit into the timeline.
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:32 PM
Gold Knight Gold Knight is a male United States Gold Knight is offline
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Re: New Seal War theory

@ Lex

I was referring to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex
OoT=SW -- Confirmed.
OoT=/=ALttP's backstory -- Confirmed. (See TWW.)
As a consequence, SW=/=ALttP's backstory.
But then I read to the end and saw this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lex
Compromise.
The Seal War story in ALttP represents both the events of OoT and a possible Seal War that occurs between FSA and ALttP. The Seal War story, along with the prophecies of the Hero regarding the three pendants of virtue and the Master Sword, are passed down throughout the ages, and are relevant to both OoT and ALttP. These two tales--the Seal War and the prophecy of the Hero--exist to represent the endless cycle that is the history of Hyrule.
No matter what age or era, so long as the Triforce rests in the Sacred Realm, evil will claim it, and a Hero will rise to defeat that evil, bearing a Master Sword obtained after collecting three magical stones or pendants or other such nonsense. Whether or not the war that relates to ALttP is connected to the similar events in FSA will never quite be known, unless something is uncovered that explicitly confirms or denies it. So, for now, we're going to have to come to the compromise that there may be a war between FSA and ALttP, or that the war in FSA itself may be the backstory to ALttP.
So, I'm sorry about the misunderstanding.

@ Aiden

There's no reason for the Triforce to be split, though. At the end of TWW, the entire Triforce disappears, presumably back to the Sacred Realm. What you're saying would only be possible if ALttP came right after OoT instead of TWW.
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