Bellum the dream Devil?

Okay I stumbled over Bellums japanese name and translated it.

夢幻魔神 ベラムー
Mugen mashin (or majin) Beramuu (or Belamuu)

This translates imo to "Dream Devil Belamuu", and not to "Phantom Devil" like Zeldawiki currently claims.

Mugen is fantasy or dream...I never seen it used as a word for phantom (feel free to correct me), then again I don't know what the Phantoms in Zelda games are called in the japanese original.
Anyway, this would ofcourse strenghten the connection between Bellum and the Nightmare from LA, so I thought I put it out there.

I plugged it into the Google translator and got "Devil Beramu Hourglass".
Babel Fish gave me "Fantasy demon God [beramu".
Reverso: "Dreams and phantasms malevolent deity Bella Mu"

Two out of three agree with you, it'd seem, but the inclusion of "Hourglass" in the Google one's got me intrigued. Maybe it's some sort of double entendre?


EDIT:
According to playing with the Google translator:
Together, 夢幻 means "hourglass" but apart 夢 means "dream" and 幻 means "phantom".

Japanese is apparently more different from English than I realized.
Altering the spacing can make:
夢幻魔 神 "God's Magic Hourglass"
夢幻 魔神 "Devil Hourglass"
夢 幻魔神 "Devil Visionary Dream"
夢 幻 魔 神 "Genma God's Dream"

MORE EDIT:
"Bella Mu" is just the cutest name.

According to what I know:

夢 alone would be the same word as ゆめ (yume), which is dream.
幻 alone would be the same word as まぼろし (maboroshi) which is dream, vision, illusion and (I just now found out through double checking what you said) also phantom (now I know at least why they decieded to include phantom into the translation on Zeldawiki)

Together 夢幻 is the same word as ゆめまぼろし (yumemaboroshi) though I usually see むげん (mugen) used for that. Both of those mean dream/vision/fantasy.

I' not sure how to break down 魔神 further, but it means "devil, demon" together, and I'm fairly sure that's mainly because of the 魔 since it shows up in other words for devil (such as akuma).

I don't know why hourglass shows up in the machiene generated translations...I only know 1 word for hourglass 砂時計 or すなどけい and both are romanised as "sunadokei"

inb4 PH is a remake of LA

IMo you stand correct, bitterlime, although I don't think Google translator can really be trusted...

http://translate.google.com/?js=y&pr...AD%94%E7%A5%9E

It seems like like it recognizes Mugen no Sunadokei as 'phantom hourglass', despite the fact that it means the "Hourglass of Dreams". I suppose that would also make Bellum a Dream Majin (from the little I know, trabslating Majin as Devil is considered wrong for some reason), or a demon of dreams or something like that.

ZW only took the same english translation NoA used and put it there...

So, the point is, was PH a dream too??

Originally Posted by Mandrag

If so it was less of a dream than LA, what with Linebeck and the hourglass carrying over.

In LA we see the Wind Fish and Marin as a seagull carrying over.

Originally Posted by Mandrag

If so it was less of a dream than LA, what with Linebeck and the hourglass carrying over.

Well, Marn kinda survived the disappearance of koholint too...

Originally Posted by Smertios

It seems like like it recognizes Mugen no Sunadokei as 'phantom hourglass', despite the fact that it means the "Hourglass of Dreams".

Interesting, I have no idea how online translators really work, and what they use as an translation basis...

I suppose that would also make Bellum a Dream Majin (from the little I know, trabslating Majin as Devil is considered wrong for some reason), or a demon of dreams or something like that.

Well translating it as THE Devil is certainly wrong. I don't think translating it as A devil is problematic, the seperated kanji translate to "demon" and "god" (I checked now). Translating things related to mythology will always be flawed, since they don't match up 100%. There is no english word that fits manji 100%, also because of the fact that manji isn't really all that specific. I guess demon is better because it seems less specific than devil, and avoids confusion with the Devil.

So, the point is, was PH a dream too??

I honestly don't think so, with the anouki showing up in ST, and there being several characters that apparently have crossed the "border" to the ocean king world at ease.
But this has been argued about alot already, I guess the "dream demon" thing gives the "it was a dream" side some credit. But it still seems less likley to me personally.

Where'd my post go? Was it just a dream?

Be it dream or separate realm, I don't believe there was any time-travel in PH.
There was just time-freezing.

^ Is that not a type of time travel? :s

I don't believe PH to be a dream. If it is, Link and Tetra (and perhaps Linebeck) went in and out of the same one. I believe it's just the Ocean King's realm. In LA, it's hinting and stated all over that the island is the Wind Fish's dream. There are no dream-like characteristics nor any hint or mention of it within PH. Otherwise, the Ocean King would of said it like the Wind Fish did. I think the ending just shows the time unfroze outside of the realm as far as 'it's only been 10 minutes!' goes.

I asked about this on Legends Alliance and got a response.

Originally Posted by MikePetersSucks

As the second guy said, it's a double entendre. It's a word that can be read as "phantasm", "fantasy," and "dream."

The thing is, this "dream" is not synonymous with yume, the word we use for sleeping dreams, such as what the Wind Fish experienced. It's more used for daydreams, whimsies, plans, or even certain spiritual manifestations.

So if I had to wager a guess, I would say that the implication isn't that PH was an LA-style dream, but that, if anything, the Ocean King is some straight out reality warper, maybe? Bellum is said to have been an enemy that consumed the Ocean King's true body and forced him to astral project into a weaker form. Could Bellum be...one of these?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnemyWithout

Originally Posted by Hombre de Mundo

inb4 PH is a remake of LA

PH is a remake of- awww.

I think that there is a greater evil that isn't Ganondorf, that connects every evil being. And he'd be the Zelda equivalent of the devil or something like that. It would explain the eye.

oh i never new it was a remake of la, thanks for that info

Originally Posted by gronwyin

oh i never new it was a remake of la, thanks for that info

It isn't. It really, really isn't. Some claim that it was meant to replace LA, but I believe that there are far too many differences. It isn't even made clear whether or not the events depicted in PH were a dream or not.

Well, the word "Bellum" itself is Latin for War.

This is pretty interesting. I think the allusions to Link's Awakening are really interesting in PH, and Bellum being another manifestation of the Nightmare seems very plausible. Also, the Wind Fish being related to that whale in the ending of PH (it's been too long since I've played it to remember the name) also seems very likely. I think these similarities really make it difficult to determine where LA and ALttP are in the timeline.

Doesn't hinder my views:

Similarly to the Wind Fish's ability to create things in a physical world by dreaming, the Ocean King has the power to change/warp a physical things in the physical world to the point of it being nearly another dimension, though dreams are not required.

Originally Posted by Hombre de Mundo

inb4 PH is a remake of LA

Your a forum mod, and yet this seems like spam to me.


Anyway back on topic. This also lends to the idea that "the realm of the ocean king" is not really part of the great sea at all and was just a dream after all. Now although ST seems to directly contradict this it is possible that the land (ocean?) that PH takes place in is some sort of alternate dimension, kinda like Termina. So it's possible that the two worlds coverged at one point in the gap between PH and ST, or just some of the inhabitents (such as lineback) of the realm of the ocean king left and entered the "great sea" world.