Backstory Order

I want feedback on this order of events.
Especially anything that would tend to disprove it.

1. Interloper Conflict
The Sacred Realm is discovered for the first time. When the interlopers
rise to power, the Light Spirits banish them to the Twilight Realm.

2. Sleeping Zelda (AoL backstory)
Because I believe this to be "old Hyrule's" original princess Zelda, I believe
that the Triforce was used before OoT. I also think this because the Triforce
is the crest of Hyrule in OoT and MC. And because the Hylians had access to
the Sacred Realm (they built the Temple of Time/Master Sword to seal the entrance).

I think that after the interlopers were banished, sleeping Zelda's father got the
Triforce from the Sacred Realm, and ruled an age of peace & prosperity. When
he died, his son (the prince) searched for the Triforce, and a sleeping spell was
cast on his sister, Zelda.

Because there was no one balanced enough to wield the Triforce for a long time
after the King died, it was locked away in the Sacred Realm. (I don't know if this
was before or after the Prince searched for it)

3. Hero of Men (MC backstory)
I'll come back to this placement.

4. Minish Cap
Here we have another princess named Zelda. I place her after the original
Zelda (continuing the naming tradition), and after the Interloper Conflict
(the Triforce was probably discovered before MC since it is the crest of
Hyrule at this time).

Minish Cap Zelda has the Light Force. It has been passed down to her
through a line of princesses. This power was given to Hyrule's princess
after (or at the same time) the Hero of Men received the Light Force
from the Picori/Minish:

Originally Posted by Minish Cap

The princess who holds the power of
light...
That mysterious power is said to flow
in the veins of every royal lady
in your family ever since that day
when it was gifted to your people.

In AoL, sleeping Zelda is finally awoken after the destruction of Ganon.
Ganon is believed to have been first seen in OoT. Also AoL's town names
might be a reference to the OoT Sages. LoZ/AoL's placement is uncertain
in my opinion, but because evidence seems to suggest a post-OoT placement,
I am going to conclude that the original Zelda was still sleeping at the time
of the Minish Cap.

This leads to my placement of the Hero of Men. Minish Cap Zelda got the
Light Force passed down from a line of princesses, but if the original Zelda
is still in a coma during MC, then Minish Cap Zelda did not get the Light
Force from her (MC Zelda can't be a descendant of sleeping Zelda).

This is why I think the Light Force was given to a Zelda who came after
sleeping Zelda. So that it could be passed down to MC Zelda. Now you
know why I place the Hero of Men legend between the sleeping Zelda tale
and The Minish Cap.

5. Ocarina of Time
As for why Minish Cap is before OoT, I can point you to another thread...
...but I will say that OoT Zelda is not the first Zelda, and that she might
have the Light Force. (It is unclear if MC Zelda had any Light Force left
after MC in my opinion).

*How's that for linking seemingly unconnected legends?

It seems plausible. I've always been one to support the idea of MC being first in line, with the AoL sleeping zelda legend behind it. Every female born to the family then on is named Zelda after all. That would make AoL zelda the original. But then again, I'm not a theorist. Nice one though, I like it.

You sound like a theorist to me, we all have different levels of experience

I don't really consider myself a theorist as much as just a supporter of theories I like. I've never came up with a theory of my own, I just support those (like this one) that I think can be relevant and plausible. My knowledge of theories is actually quite miniscule.

you have a serious flaw about having Loz-Aol before OoT if you believe in the single ganon theory, just saying

^ I did not specify where to place LoZ/AoL (at least not in this thread)
I just suggested that it's likely after OoT (but I'm open)

In my opinion, if you're going to place the Sleeping Zelda story as the first in the timeline then you're going to have to put AoL before OoT.

Why?

I think it's not even up to speculation to see what the King of the AoL BS did with the Triforce of Courage: he's the one that hid it in the Golden Palace (or was it called the Palace of Power? I can't remember...). At any rate, if it's in this palace up until the point of AoL, and AoL comes after OoT, then there's no way that OoT Link could have received the Triforce of Courage, seeing as it would not have even been in the Sacred Realm.

Now, you could argue that the ToC was merely hidden and thus never recovered by the Prince of the AoL BS. After the death of said Prince, the ToC was recovered along with the rest of the Triforce and put back into the Sacred Realm, and then we get the events of OoT, which show that when Ganondorf entered the SR, the entire Triforce was there. It therefore is deemed necessary if we place AoL after OoT that the ToC was hidden in this Last Palace of the AoL Game. Enter the events of AoL and we have a sound storyline.

However, I still affirm that it seems that the King of the AoL BS is the one to have hidden the ToC away in this final palace of AoL. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that AoL could come after OoT whilst the Sleeping Zelda story comes before it (for reason of the ToC contradiction). To fix this conundrum, one would have to place AoL before OoT, or the sleeping Zelda story after OoT.

Placing the Sleeping Zelda story after OoT does pose a problem, and that problem comes in the form of WW, the game that shattered many things we know about the Zelda timeline, including the placement of the SW. What we discover in Zelda is that it's a royal decree that Tetra should be called Zelda, being a female heir to the Royal Family's throne.

It seems like this is directly referencing the events of the Sleeping Zelda story, since the Prince, after seeing his sister Zelda fall under the wizard's sleeping curse, decreed that all first-born females of each new generation of the Royal Family shall be named Zelda. This seems to be the start of the Zelda naming tradition.

No matter where we place the sleeping Zelda story, we either get a ToC contradiction, or a Zelda naming contradiction, since it seems that the sleeping Zelda story would need to be sometime before WW. Let's explore some possibilities.

SZ - OoT - AoL

We see the start of the naming tradition with this timeline, but we see a major ToC contradiction. The ToC can't be in the Great Palace of AoL AND in the SR of OoT.

OoT - SZ - WW - AoL

Many people have suggested this placement, but there's still a ToC contradiction, and even a Hyrule contradiction. If Zelda is sleeping in the North Tower and Hyrule is flooded, there's no way that AoL can take place after WW for there'd be no way for AoL Link to get to the North Tower under the ocean. Also, WW features the Triforce all split up, so there's no way it's also in the Great Palace.

SZ - AoL - OoT

This does take care of the Zelda name decree and the ToC conundrum, but what about the names of AoL's towns? If you're to believe this beautiful placement of SZ and AoL, then you'd have to take the coincidence of the names of the towns and the names of the Sages as just that: coincidences. Other than that, this placement works perfectly.

Also, there's this proposal:

OoT - TP - SZ - AoL

This gets rid of ToC contradictions, but we end up with the naming tradition being both an old tradition dating back before OoT, and also becoming a new one post TP. So wait...if this positioning is to be believed, that means that there would needs be TWO moments in Hyrule's history where naming a female member of the Royal Family Zelda is a tradition and law.

WW proves that the naming tradition existed before the times of OoT, but if SZ is placed after OoT on the CT, then tradition would have had to have been forgotten in the times of AoL's BS and then reestablishd thanks to this grieving Prince. That would solve things, but it sure makes a mess.

My conclusion? A retcon is either in order, or we're just going to have to deal with contradictions with SZ's placement until Nintendo comes out with an official statement about its true placement on the timeline.

^Wow, I never even noticed the triforce contradiction before... It seems so obvious.
Thanks for pointing this out.

In my opinion, if you're going to place the Sleeping Zelda story as the first in the timeline then you're going to have to put AoL before OoT.

I disagree.

Why?

Waiting

I think it's not even up to speculation to see what the King of the AoL BS did with the Triforce of Courage: he's the one that hid it in the Golden Palace (or was it called the Palace of Power? I can't remember...).

I think it is up to speculation. There is nothing to suggest the scroll writer who hid the Triforce of Courage is the King mentioned in the story of the sleepiong Zelda. In many respects I very much doubt it is. The only source that says the scroll writer is a king at all is the US booklet of the GBA classic version. And this was changed back to the Japanese words for the EU manual. In the Original NES manual they seemed very much different events to me and have never linked them. Though I see why some would for 'neatness' or 'simplicity', however this simplicity is lost when it's put into context of the other games.

What we discover in Zelda is that it's a royal decree that Tetra should be called Zelda, being a female heir to the Royal Family's throne.

It seems like this is directly referencing the events of the Sleeping Zelda story, since the Prince, after seeing his sister Zelda fall under the wizard's sleeping curse, decreed that all first-born females of each new generation of the Royal Family shall be named Zelda. This seems to be the start of the Zelda naming tradition.

Which means it must go pre-tWW (as you address later on), and seeing as the same tradition is shown to be happening on the CT with TP we must assume it either happens in both or it happens pre-split, ie: Pre-OoT.

No matter where we place the sleeping Zelda story, we either get a ToC contradiction, or a Zelda naming contradiction,

Not if scrollwriter =/= AoL BS' King as is perfectly plausible.

If Zelda is sleeping in the North Tower and Hyrule is flooded, there's no way that AoL can take place after WW for there'd be no way for AoL Link to get to the North Tower under the ocean.

The AoL manual shows North Castle is on a mountain. Moreover the whole of the AoL map seems to be mountainous with villages being on the mountains whereas the 'Death Mountain Area' of LoZ is the plainsland that is waterlogged and a valley.

My conclusion? A retcon is either in order, or we're just going to have to deal with contradictions with SZ's placement until Nintendo comes out with an official statement about its true placement on the timeline.

Or we lose Occam's Razor for a brief moment within the context of AoL's own story to make sense of it in the grander picture.

As much as I get the vibe that sleeping Zelda's father wrote the scroll, I can't really seem to prove it.
I think it's just a lot cleaner (in the big picture) to say that the scroll was written after Zelda was put
into a sleeping spell instead of before.

IMO the ideal place for LoZ/AoL is "what would've happened if Zelda hadn't sent Link back to his own time".
We get LoZ/AoL in 'old Hyrule' with no flood to mess things up, and still get the OoT Sage town names,
and an origin for LoZ Ganon to boot. I can't really prove that anything exists besides the standard split, though...

I am open to the possibility that we may learn more about LoZ/AoL through future games, giving
it a reasonable spot on the AT or CT, but for now, I'm going with my unconventional "future history" theory.

MC - LoZ/AoL - OoT might be possible, but again, it's uncertain at best.

I just can't place LoZ/AoL given the current standing of the Zelda series.

Now let's get back on topic.

Well, the AoL BS may not outright say that the King hid the ToC in the Great Palace, but it was definitely hidden from the Prince before the King was dead in that era. It was hidden someplace. Sure, it could've been moved and eventually hidden in the Great Palace (a stretch, but one that keeps it consistent with the other games). Sure, the Legend of the Sleeping Princess could've been forgotten until a descendant of the Sheikah found an old crusty scroll in their attic.

Nah...I think it's very plausible that AoL could've happened before OoT. It gets rid of ToC complications and explains the naming tradition. It doesn't explain the town names, but I think naming the Sages of OoT after the towns of AoL was just a nod to nostalgia. I mean...why else would Talon and Malon appear in so many games and in so many different eras? Why would Tingle and his brothers make so many appearances throughout the timeline? If we sit and think too much about these cameos of the Zelda world, it will make our heads explode. Literally.

I'm open to LoZ/AoL before OoT... I just can't decide, all three theories are equally vague (in my opinion)

Well, the AoL BS may not outright say that the King hid the ToC in the Great Palace, but it was definitely hidden from the Prince before the King was dead in that era.

I disagree. My explanation of all this is the Prince's inability to get the whole of the Triforce (inherit in part) is because his heart was not in balance, or he was possessed by that Wizard, and so upon touching it the Triforce split. He, naturally, gets power as the one to claim it for his own- Wisdom goes to Zelda- this is what she knew about the Triforce, and also why the Wizard's spell backfired and killed him before her- she had the Wisdom's protection.

After the Wizard's death and Zelda's comatose state the Triforce is drawn together (courage presumably went to one of the line of knights) and is sealed in the SR with the spiritual stones and Master Sword as this ends the 'ancient time when Kings ruled with the land of Hyrule with the Triforce'.

Here we go.

The Hero of Men
This happens first, imo. No mention yet of the Triforce having been accessed in the Sacred Realm, and no mention of the forging of the Master Sword. In fact, since there is no Master Sword, the Piccori need to bring the HoM their own blade to take care of evil.

Also, the Hero's garb during his time isn't yet complete. So far, there's only a green tunic. It doesn't become complete until some time later when Ezlo adds to the Hero's garb by giving Link a green hat.

The Minish Cap
Happens maybe 1 or 2 hundred years following the events of the Hero of Men, seeing as the idea of there being Piccori is still fresh in everyone's minds, even though they haven't retained much information concerning how they really are (besides the Royal Family, of course, but they are privy to all private matters of the kingdom anyway). Still no mention of the Triforce (only the symbols of it, but this just means they know the creation story of Hyrule and the legend of the relic left behind by the Goddesses). Still no Master Sword either. After this game, the Piccori blade rests for awhile, now known as the Four Sword.

The Interloper War
The events of the Minish Cap reintroduced evil into the world, as was evidenced when Vaati shattered the Piccori blade and opened the box it held shut. (To me, this was very symbolic of Pandora's box, being one of the main reasons Hyrule became a dangerous place.) The Interlopers were eventually sealed off in the Twilight Realm, but we also learn that they were after the Triforce, which was hidden away in the Sacred Realm.

We don't know for sure whether or not this was the first time the Sacred Realm had been visited, but we sure know now that people know about the Triforce.

Now I'm going to set this up for something interesting. TP shows us that the Triforce's Power is ultimately more powerful than that of the Fused Shadows, which we know is the magic the Interlopers used (Ganondorf is shown crushing the Fused Shadows in his hand, displaying the awesome might of the Golden Power).

Skip back in time to the Interloper conflict. I think they were defeated the first time due to power of the Triforce. And I think that perhaps the keeper of this power was...the Royal Family, of course. I mean, we know that they hold the secrets to the entrance of the Sacred Realm, and thus, access to the Triforce, in the game OoT. C'mon, the title of the game is Ocarina of Time, which is, in fact, the damn key to the Sacred Realm.

The Sleeping Zelda Story
So now we see that the King is ruling his land justly with the entire Triforce. Sound familiar? Well, I'm going to tell you that I believe this King to be the one from the AoL BS. Of course, following his death, things begin to go a little sour again. The wizard comes up and tries to gain access to the Triforce through the Prince, and this fiasco ends up with the sleeping curse on Princess Zelda.

We know that the King had already hidden the ToC by the time the Prince and his wizard friend began poking Zelda for its whereabouts. I think it was already hidden in the Great Palace, though maybe the Scroll Writer was the one to have hidden it. Maybe even the small wierd dude who is the ToC's keeper at the end of AoL is the one who wrote the scroll. At any rate, we don't know for certain, so I'm just going to take things at face value and place AoL according, that is, in the context of its BS.

Legend of Zelda/Adventure of Link
By this time Hyrule had fully declined, and Hyrule was completely overrun by villains and whatnot. Not only that, but an evil entity known only as Ganon is running amok, and even manages to take the Triforce of Power. The rest is history, we know.

I know you guys like to see this game after OoT, but bear with me on this. We already know that FSA establishes that there are more than one Ganon. But, I will tell you that a pre-OoT placement of LoZ/AoL clears up many inconsistencies about the series.

-There is no contradiction on the ToC's location in between the AoL BS and OoT and AoL (for it's hidden in the AoL BS, suddenly in the SR in OoT, then hidden again in AoL...yeah...whatever).
-It also clears up a SW inconsistency. Many people have tried to figure out how LoZ/AoL can possibly come between the SW and ALttP, even so far to say that the SW happened after the events of Zelda 1 and 2. It's pretty tough to fathom if there was only meant to be one Ganon, and that the Ganon of LoZ/AoL is the same as the Ganon of ALttP.
-Also, if LoZ/AoL come before OoT, you would see that the Sleeping Princess story would still have time to become legend, but we wouldn't run the risk of it being forgotten in the mists of time (or under a few miles of ocean). Obviously the Royal Family and its keepers were awaiting this hero, and Link appears to fulfill prophecy. If AoL takes place hundreds of years after OoT, and the SZ story is before OoT, then why can't OoT Link, or TP Link, or some other green tunic'd hero just wake up that Zelda in the North Tower? I mean, don't they each get a Triforce Mark on their left hand? C'mon people, I think AoL had to have been earlier, or I'll just have to go with the theory that Impa found the scroll in a dusty chest in her attic and said to herself, "Oh my, too bad we didn't see this earlier. Oh well, now's better than never to wake that Zelda up."

Cut the crap.

The Great War
This of course is the War that predated OoT by about a decade or so, which is the same war that caused Link to be orphaned and raised by the Kokiri. This is the end of the decline of Hyrule. This is the Royal Family taking back what is rightfully theirs and kicking some ass doing so. This is the unification of Hyrule, of that age of chaos and disorder finally coming to its rightful end. And then...

Ocarina of Time
No inconsistencies with the ToC being in the Sacred Realm instead of the Great Palace...for if AoL came before OoT then the whole Great Palace fiasco was resolved long before.

All this is of course my own speculation, but I've given you my reasoning for putting LoZ and AoL first, and Miyamoto's timeline can kiss my ass. I think he's been going senile for awhile now anyway, never truly knowing himself what the timeline of the games ever really was.

Questions? Comments? Pizza? Let's hear it.

Originally Posted by Sparty

SZ - AoL - OoT

This does take care of the Zelda name decree and the ToC conundrum, but what about the names of AoL's towns? If you're to believe this beautiful placement of SZ and AoL, then you'd have to take the coincidence of the names of the towns and the names of the Sages as just that: coincidences. Other than that, this placement works perfectly.

This, I think is the best answer. I don't believe that creators ever gave much weight to the town name connection because:

1) it seems more like an easter egg, given that the OOT script director only called them "pseudosecrets"

Originally Posted by Script Director Toru Osawa

Though in this game Zelda is now included in the Seven Sages, the other six have the names of the town names from the Disk System edition "The Adventure of Link."

In the SNES edition game, the story "Long ago, there was a war called the Imprisoning War" was passed along. A name in the Imprisoning War era is the name of a Town later. They were like "pseudo-secrets." We wanted to throw these out through the entirety of the game. That thing from then is now this.

Tarin and Marin, a father and girl who appeared in "Link's Awakening" (GB) were used as the base for a different parent and child who comes out in this game. These are the things that when they are seen by a person who has played Zelda before they will understand. If people begin to think "Do you think that this could be that thing from then?" then I will be happy.

He views the naming of the towns the same way Talon and Malon are related to Tarin and Marin - and we know any connection there is supposed to be an easter egg reference.

2) This statement is old and was during the time Miyamoto was more in charge of Zelda's direction. I'm starting to believe that anything they said in that time period (1980 - 1998, roughly) seriously needs to be questioned as timeline evidence. The reason for this is Miyamoto did not, and still does not, think a timeline is important. Therefore that is never a consideration when designing the story for Zelda games, unlike now with Anouma running things. It seems to me any supposed timeline connection they ever made (Such as OOT as IW) doesn't make sense with the games.

Originally Posted by River Zora

I think it is up to speculation. There is nothing to suggest the scroll writer who hid the Triforce of Courage is the King mentioned in the story of the sleepiong Zelda. In many respects I very much doubt it is. The only source that says the scroll writer is a king at all is the US booklet of the GBA classic version. And this was changed back to the Japanese words for the EU manual. In the Original NES manual they seemed very much different events to me and have never linked them. Though I see why some would for 'neatness' or 'simplicity', however this simplicity is lost when it's put into context of the other games.

How does this work, exactly? When I read the AOL manual, it seems crystal clear that the scroll writer is the King. What makes you think otherwise?

Heh, you should read my latest post, the one right before you posted this. I delve further into why I say: SZ - AoL - OoT

^ Heh, we posted too close at the same time . Yeah, good explanation of events. Unfortunately, Ganon is still a thorn in the LOZ-AOL-OOT placement. It seems obvious that the Ganon in ALTTP and LOZ are the same (although it is not directly stated). So, one either has to assume that it is a new Ganon, or that his essence lived and transferred to Ganondorf in FSA when he obtained the Trident. However, I think this is far more plausible and logical than merely retconning the sleeping zelda theory (when storyline references from ALTTP to LOZ are basically slim to none, including Ganon).

Originally Posted by Sparty

-It also clears up a SW inconsistency. Many people have tried to figure out how LoZ/AoL can possibly come between the SW and ALttP, even so far to say that the SW happened after the events of Zelda 1 and 2. It's pretty tough to fathom if there was only meant to be one Ganon, and that the Ganon of LoZ/AoL is the same as the Ganon of ALttP.

I never gave much thought to the Miyamoto's timeline (OOT-LOZ-AOL-ALTTP) anyway, considering the contradictions with other developer's at the time, and even himself and ALTTP. Although, I don't think any of the developer's of Zelda games in that time period ever had a timeline in mind when deciding anything Zelda related.

I know you guys like to see this game after OoT, but bear with me on this. We already know that FSA establishes that there are more than one Ganon.

I like to think of it as proof of a second Gerudo king who happens to be named Ganondorf. Until we get more info on the origin of the trident, i don't think one can plausibly say where or not ganon's spirit is in it.

-Also, if LoZ/AoL come before OoT, you would see that the Sleeping Princess story would still have time to become legend, but we wouldn't run the risk of it being forgotten in the mists of time (or under a few miles of ocean).

given the fact that much legends would have been lost in New Hyrule,
i think its reasonable to say that the sleeping Zelda story happens in the adult timeline, in all games previously, Zelda is named Zelda because of tradition. On the adult timeline, why would that legend last? It didn't even last to WW with tetra. Plus geography of AoL implies an adult time line placement, and if the triforce is present in ST then that could be where the triforce comes from for the AoL BS. ta da, problem solved

Originally Posted by Twilit Mask of Time

I like to think of it as proof of a second Gerudo king who happens to be named Ganondorf. Until we get more info on the origin of the trident, i don't think one can plausibly say where or not ganon's spirit is in it.

Fair enough.

Given the fact that much legends would have been lost in New Hyrule, i think its reasonable to say that the sleeping Zelda story happens in the adult timeline, in all games previously, Zelda is named Zelda because of tradition. On the adult timeline, why would that legend last? It didn't even last to WW with tetra.

Wait...what??? Tetra is Zelda!!!! The KoRL says so himself. This is why the sleeping Zelda story feasible goes before OoT is BECAUSE of WW. The Legend did indeed last on the AT. I mean, we see Green Tunics, the ancient Hylian language spoken by a few deities, a few relics from the past, the Triforce, the Royal Family, Heroes, dungeons, Ganondorf...the whole shebang! Some legends were lost, but the naming tradition? Not lost. And it was not alone in its retention.

Plus geography of AoL implies an adult time line placement, and if the triforce is present in ST then that could be where the triforce comes from for the AoL BS. ta da, problem solved

Geography means crap, especially when comparing 2D games with the 3D games. And since we know next to nothing about ST, don't get your hopes up. Honestly, I don't think it'll shed any light on the placement of LoZ/AoL. With the info we have available now, I think the place of least resistence for LoZ/AoL is setting it directly before OoT. In fact, call them the OoT prequels if you will.

Originally Posted by River Zora

My explanation of all this is the Prince's inability to get the whole of the Triforce is because...the Triforce split.

I prefer to think that he simple cannot locate the pieces.

Originally Posted by Sparty

I think [the interlopers] were defeated the first time due to power of the Triforce.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. The Fused Shadow was taken away from them, split, and hidden
because its power was not overcome. If the power of the Triforce simply owned the Fused Shadow,
why take care to lock the Fused Shadow away? This was clearly a divine intervention since no one
could manage to stand up to the interlopers (imo). It says that the Mirror of Twilight was left to
the Hylians, rather than being an item of their own concoction.

Originally Posted by Sparty

why can't OoT Link, or TP Link, or some other green tunic'd hero just wake up that Zelda in the North Tower? I mean, don't they each get a Triforce Mark on their left hand?

First of all, the complete Triforce is needed to awaken sleeping Zelda. OoT Link never had a chance
to use the full Triforce because Ganon got the ToP. Second of all, TP Link has a Triforce crest because
he has inherited the ToC from OoT Link. TP Link's crest is likely not a result of (whoever's) spell
on Hyrule that would indicate TP Link had the balance needed to use the Triforce. Thirdly, only AoL Link
and ALttP Link have been shown to have that balance. And we don't know for sure what became of the
Triforce after TP. I just don't think there were any heroes between SZ and AoL that could both get ahold
of the Triforce AND have the balance needed to use it.

Originally Posted by Twilit Mask of Time

On the adult timeline, why would that legend last? It didn't even last to WW with tetra.

I have big problems with this post. First off, she was likely named Tetra to hide her identity from
Ganondorf. Remember how he searches for long eared girls in WW? Secondly, the tradition clearly
exists before WW, since Daphnes refers to her automatically as "Zelda". If the tradition ever died
off (which I doubt given the title of our beloved franchise) it would more likely be after the WW,
not before.

---------------

On another note, I love this thread. Great topic, I don't recall any discussions trying to link all of these
backstories together. Good posts everyone!