The Seal War's timeline placement is... there???

I've been re-reading ALttP's backstory.

I've always believed it told of the war that took place when the Sacred Realm was
first discovered, now I am wondering if this is so. On second thought it seems like
the war being mentioned took place when the Sacred Realm was re-discovered.

Originally Posted by ALttP manual (in my own words)

In Hyrule there are legends about the Triforce...

The knowledge of the Sacred Realm had been lost over time...

Blood is shed for information about the Triforce...

The SR entrance is discovered by accident...

Ganondorf wishes on the Triforce...

The Master Sword is forged...

The SR entrance is sealed with Ganon inside (Seal War)...

Everything but the Master Sword's creation indicates that the Seal War took
place long after after Ocarina of Time, when knowledge of the Sacred Realm
had been forgotten.

I don't think OoT is the Seal War.

If the Seal War was the initial discovery of the Sacred Realm, then it took place
long before Ocarina of Time.

If the Seal War was the AT events of OoT, then the Master Sword is forged
long before Ganondorf invades the Sacred Realm (contrary to the US manual which
says that the MS was forged in response to Ganon's evil)*

*Note that the Japanese manual says the Sages were searching for the Master
Sword, (indicating that the Master Sword was forged long before Ganondorf)
but then you have to remember that the Master Sword is lost at this time
(the Sages were searching for it) so this does not fit OoT as the Master Sword
is not lost, it's conveniently located in the Temple of Time.

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This is all quite surprising to me. The lost knowledge of the Sacred Realm
and the Sages searching for the Master Sword suggests a post-TP placement
of the Seal War (since the ToT has been relocated to the Sacred Grove in TP;
a possible explanation for the loss of the SR entrance and MS).

Or, if you prefer, a post-WW placement of the Seal War also gives us a loss
of the SR entrance and MS...

It's starting to look like the Seal War is post-TP or post-WW and that it
involves a new Ganondorf (since he dies in TP and WW, and the Ganondorf
in the ALttP backstory does not know where the SR is- it's discovered by accident).

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Off-topic, but on a related note:

Maybe Zelda Wii will be the Seal War:
OoT/MM - TP - FSA - Zelda Wii - ALttP

Plot: The FS seal breaks (again) and Ganon gets the Triforce. His evil starts to
radiate from the Sacred Realm. At the end of the game, the Sages seal the SR
entrance with Ganon inside...

The 'Master Sword spirit-girl' leads Link to the Master Sword lost in the Sacred
Grove or something... so that it can be used to seal the SR entrance... maybe...

It was confirmed and developed as the seal war. The fact is, and this has been pointed out, there were always inconsistencies with OoT being the seal war, and the fact is it just was. To not call OoT the seal war, you can't use really anything before OoT, only things after being why they retconned it.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Maybe Zelda Wii will be the Seal War:
OoT/MM - TP - FSA - Zelda Wii - ALttP

Plot: The FS seal breaks (again) and Ganon gets the Triforce. His evil starts to
radiate from the Sacred Realm. At the end of the game, the Sages seal the SR
entrance with Ganon inside...

The 'Master Sword spirit-girl' leads Link to the Master Sword lost in the Sacred
Grove or something... so that it can be used to seal the SR entrance... maybe...

I'm also hoping that Zelda Wii's plot will be something like this. It's about time Nintendo got the Imprisoning War cleared up...

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makes sense, but two things I noticed, the sages weren't looking for the MS, they were looking for someone who could wield it. Also, the Japanese manual states that the MS was forged at the direction of the goddesses so that way if any evil person gained the triforce they could be fought, so you would be correct in your point about the MS being forged long before the SW. Other than that, I agree with you.

Originally Posted by Watties

[OoT] was confirmed and developed as the seal war.

I wonder what they would say about that now that TP and FSA have been made.

Originally Posted by Watties

...To not call OoT the seal war, you can't use really anything before OoT, only things after being why they retconned it.

I am using things after OoT... (TP and FSA matching the original ALttP backstory closer
than OoT does) that's the whole point of this thread.

Originally Posted by Tyras

...two things I noticed, the sages weren't looking for the MS, they were looking for someone who could wield it.

In the Japanese manual they were looking for the MS and someone to wield it.

In the US manual they are only looking for someone to wield the MS.

賢者達はまず、マスターソードとそれを扱う勇者の存在を捜しました。
Translation 1: Initially, the Sages searched for the Master Sword and an existant hero/brave
man that could handle the sword.
Translation 2: The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it.
US Manual: As the Seven Wise Men searched for a valiant person to take up the Master Sword, [...]

Source

Originally Posted by A Link to the Past Manual

The Sages first had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and a hero to use it.

The Sages were looking for (the existence of) the Master Sword as well as somebody to use it.


EDIT: The Seal War being after TP would make sense and solve various problems.

Wow! Would you look at that! I was actually already thinking that when I made my timeline.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

Wow! Would you look at that! I was actually already thinking that when I made my timeline.

Yeah, it doesn't change my game placement on the timeline either,
especially since I didn't place "SW" on my timeline.

I think the Seal War fits quite nicely between OoX and ALttP.

The Triforce goes back to the Sacred Realm at the end of OoX (either that or they turned into birds and flew elsewhere).
Knowledge of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce is lost (likely gone by TP) as well as knowledge of the Master Sword.
Ganondorf comes back with a band of thieves and rediscovers the Sacred Realm.
Ganondorf wishes on the Triforce and turns into Ganon.
The Sacred Realm becomes the Dark World.
The Seal is cast by the Sages.
ALttP.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

...Knowledge of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce is lost (likely gone by TP) as well as knowledge of the Master Sword.

Well, Zelda knew about the Master Sword in TP since she sent him there:

Originally Posted by TP Zelda

What binds him is a different magic
than what transformed him when he
first passed the curtain of twilight.

Our world is one of balance...
Just as there is light to drive away
darkness, so, too, is there
benevolence to banish evil.

Head for the sacred grove that lies
deep within the lands guarded by the
spirit Faron.

There you will find the blade of
evil's bane that was crafted by
the wisdom of the ancient sages...
the Master Sword.

But then again Zelda may have had rare and special knowledge:

The sages... Those sages once
served the royal family, actually.
They were appointed as tutors to
the young Princess Zelda.

I do agree that TP's Temple of Time location started Hyrule on the path to
forgetting about the MS and the Sacred Realm entrance.

Your sequence of events is not bad, but I prefer:
- Ganondorf dies in TP
- reincarnated in FSA
- sealed in the FS
- breaks out; gets Triforce
- sealed in the Seal War
- ALttP/LA
- OoX (I don't see OoX happening before FSA [due to the Trident] so I place it after ALttP)

As for when the Sacred Realm became the Dark World on the CT...

I think in FSA Ganon's Trident-created-monsters are running amok in the
Sacred Realm/Dark World, but the Realm itself is not corrupted until Ganon
gets the Triforce. I say this because there any many empty harmless areas of
FSA's Dark World that people have wandered into without transforming.

The sages... Those sages once
served the royal family, actually.
They were appointed as tutors to
the young Princess Zelda.

Isn't this a mistranslation? The guy telling this to Link is actually the one who was Zelda's tutor according to the Japanese translation, as I recall. (Don't feel like looking up the translation myself.)

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Well, Zelda knew about the Master Sword in TP since she sent him there:

Sorry. I wasn't too clear with that. I meant that the knowledge of the Master Sword was lost later than the knowledge of the Sacred Realm and Triforce was lost, hence why I placed "(likely gone by TP)" before I said that the knowledge of the Master Sword was lost.

I haven't been too good at explaining my thoughts lately.

Your sequence of events is not bad, but I prefer:
- Ganondorf dies in TP
- reincarnated in FSA
- sealed in the FS
- breaks out; gets Triforce
- sealed in the Seal War
- ALttP/LA
- OoX (I don't see OoX happening before FSA [due to the Trident] so I place it after ALttP)

All that is really speculative though. Also, let's think about OoX for a moment.

When OoX was released, the timeline was OoT - LoZ/AoL - ALttP/LA.

OoX has certain elements that must be in its preceding game for it to take place. These elements are:

1. Ganon being dead;
2. the Triforce being in Hyrule

At the time, the only game that ended with Ganon dead and the Triforce in Hyrule was AoL. Add the fact that the Triforce flies away (to the Sacred Realm?) at the end of OoX and you have:

OoT - LoZ/AoL - OoX - ALttP/LA

Therefore, the only place OoX can currently be is:

1. after LoZ/AoL;
2. before ALttP; or
3. both

As for when the Sacred Realm became the Dark World on the CT...

I think in FSA Ganon's Trident-created-monsters are running amok in the
Sacred Realm/Dark World, but the Realm itself is not corrupted until Ganon
gets the Triforce. I say this because there any many empty harmless areas of
FSA's Dark World that people have wandered into without transforming.

Again, it's pretty speculative. I won't argue with it though.

Oracles can easily be re-purposed though, it not very heavily connected to anything.

At the time of its release, it had to go after LoZ/AoL. Here's the games as of today that can succeed OoX in which Ganon is dead and the Triforce is in Hyrule:

LoZ/AoL - OoX
TP - OoX (depending on whether the Triforce stays in Hyrule at the end of TP and if it even is in Hyrule)

Games proceeding it in which Ganon is dead and/or a new Ganon is born and the Triforce is in the sacred Realm:

OoX - ALttP (could be new Ganon if Seal War is after TP)
OoX - FSA (also explains Ganon for ALttP, Triforce's whereabouts are unknown) - ALttP

There's just more saying that OoX doesn't take place after ALttP.

Here's the thing, though: nowhere in the actual Imprisoning War story does it say that the realm was opened after it was rediscovered. In fact, the story says it was opened while the Triforce still rested there, which in either timeline would fall during the time of OoT, certainly while its location is still known.

Originally Posted by ALttP GBA manual

[the gods] left behind a symbol of their strength, the golden emblem known as the Triforce, which they hid in the golden land. After many years, an opening was found that led from our fair Hyrule to the golden land, where the mystical Triforce was still hidden.

What is said is that Ganon (in the current game) rediscovered the Sacred Realm after its location had been lost, but was unable to return to the world of light.

Originally Posted by GBA ALttP

The Triforce will grant the wishes of whoever touches it, as long as that person lives. That is why it was hidden in the Golden Land. Only a select few were told of its location, but at some point that knowledge was lost. The person who rediscovered the Golden Land was an evil thief named Ganondorf. Luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World.

However, if you take these two facts together, it seems more likely that Ganon (in the current game) did not rediscover the Sacred Realm in the Imprisoning War (OoT), but at a later time - rather than that the Imprisoning War took place long after OoT.

I personally believe the story of the opening and sealing of the Sacred Realm to be OoT, and the "rediscovery" of the Sacred Realm to occur in FSA.

Originally Posted by Sparty

The guy telling this to Link is actually the one who was Zelda's tutor according to the Japanese translation, as I recall.

More likely it's a purposeful change, since this quote seems to be meant to describe how Auru has knowledge of the Arbiter's Grounds - but the English accomplishes this better by telling us he got this knowledge from the sages.

Originally Posted by OP

Note that the Japanese manual says the Sages were searching for the Master Sword, (indicating that the Master Sword was forged long before Ganondorf) but then you have to remember that the Master Sword is lost at this time (the Sages were searching for it) so this does not fit OoT as the Master Sword is not lost, it's conveniently located in the Temple of Time.

Actually, it's sealed along with Link in the Sacred Realm, which explains why neither the sword nor a hero could be found before Ganondorf's attack.

For me Oracles has only one point of significance. A dead Ganon is revived with
Trident in hand. This is either LoZ or ALttP Ganon.

It's not so clear if LoZ Ganon has a Trident or not, so I lean towards ALttP.

Also LoZ Ganon already had a revival attempt (AoL) - ALttP Ganon did not
(another reason to suspect OoX Ganon is ALttP Ganon).

There is also the connection OoX makes by having Link dress much more like
ALttP/LA Link, rather than LoZ/AoL Link.

As for the Triforce, there is no way to know how it got to Hyrule Castle.

EDIT: The Seal War being after TP would make sense and solve various problems.

No it wouldn't. The Tr is not the SR.

@ Cukeman: Who says the SW is one event? In my timeline the SW is three sets of events.

Artemicion, I found your post incomprehensible, if you edit it, maybe I can
figure out what you mean:

(allow me to paraphrase)

Originally Posted by Artemicion

...nowhere in the actual Imprisoning War story does it say that the realm was opened...
...In fact, the story says it was opened while...


...the SW was after OoT...
...rather than long after OoT...

^ this confuses me

Actually, it's sealed along with Link in the Sacred Realm, which explains why neither the sword nor a hero could be found before Ganondorf's attack.

I'll assume this was said in jest

Originally Posted by Cukeman

For me Oracles has only one point of significance. A dead Ganon is revived with Trident in hand. This is either LoZ or ALttP Ganon.

"Daimaou Ganon" is revived.

Since the trident hadn't been conceived as a part of Ganon's design at the time of LoZ, it not being in LoZ really is inconsequential. (Any more than the Triforce not being in LoZ means it is at the end.)

Also LoZ Ganon already had a revival attempt (AoL) - ALttP Ganon did not (another reason to suspect OoX Ganon is ALttP Ganon).

AST?

Also, LoZ Ganon having minions out to revive him actually fits with the scenario of OoX perfectly.

There is also the connection OoX makes by having Link dress much more like ALttP/LA Link, rather than LoZ/AoL Link.

And yet he has a Triforce mark like LoZ/AoL Link, rather than ALttP/LA Link, and the Triforce is in Hyrule like in LoZ/AoL, rather than in the Sacred Realm where it is in ALttP.

As for the Triforce, there is no way to know how it got to Hyrule Castle.

Link united it in AoL and according to the manual it is supposed to be used when a great king appears. Put two and two together and Link will use the Triforce as king, thus putting it in the castle.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

@ Cukeman: Who says the SW is one event? In my timeline the SW is three sets of events.

When people use the phrase Seal War, they often are not speaking of the same
incident. When I use the phrase in this thread, I simply mean the time Ganon
was sealed in the SR until ALttP.

@ Artemicion's OoX post:

It's plausible, but nothing more than speculation IMO

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Artemicion, I found your post incomprehensible, if you edit it, maybe I can
figure out what you mean

If you read the whole post, maybe you'll figure out what I mean

Here's the thing, though: nowhere in the actual Imprisoning War story does it say that the realm was opened after it was rediscovered. In fact, the story says it was opened while the Triforce still rested there, which in either timeline would fall during the time of OoT, certainly while its location is still known.

I'll assume this was said in jest

Bad assumption.

It's plausible, but nothing more than speculation IMO

Is that supposed to be a rebuttal?