The Seal War's timeline placement is... there???

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Ergo, no matter what timeline the Seal War is on it must be OoT, or before OoT.

Bah, I can't argue with you. I'm trying to show that TP and FSA override OoT
by actually coinciding with the ALttP backstory (unlike OoT). You are determined
to accept OoT as the Seal War regardless of any future Zelda content. I guess you
don't believe developer intent can change... (at least not in this case)

The word "accidental" actually means "by chance." That Link would open the Sacred Realm was fortunate for Ganondorf.

Still it was opened by Link (on purpose), not a group of thieves (by accident).
Accidental can also mean unintentional, which is more likely the case here.
Link clearly had intention to enter the Sacred Realm and get the Triforce before
Ganondorf could (as in Zelda's plan).

And the opening of the SR by the group of thieves was the rediscovery of the
Sacred Realm, so it can't be OoT Ganondorf.

Rauru and Zelda are two of seven. The others sought after Link's return during the seven year sleep.

Baloney. None of the others even knew they were Sages until Adult Link awakens
them. They weren't Sages yet, and there is no indication in OoT that they were
trying to find a Hero. Indeed, they went to the dungeons to try to solve the
problems on their own.

I think that plus Ganon's title and the placement of the Triforce better match a post-LoZ/AoL placement than simply having the same character design (doesn't necessarily indicate it takes place AFTER; it could be BEFORE) and Ganon having the trident (there was no trident conceived of yet in LoZ).

By that virtue, I think it most reasonable to consider them connected.

You're free to think so, to my thinking, that is the less convincing of the two
arguments.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Bah, I can't argue with you. I'm trying to show that TP and FSA override OoT by actually coinciding with the ALttP backstory (unlike OoT).

You are determined to accept OoT as the Seal War regardless of any future Zelda content. I guess you don't believe developer intent can change... (at least not in this case)

Neither TP nor FSA show the Sacred Realm becoming the Dark World, the Triforce resting in the Sacred Realm when the entrance was opened, or Sages sealing the Dark World. GBA ALttP's backstory says all three of these things happened; all three of these things happened in OoT. (In fact, the Dark World ALREADY exists as such in FSA...)

Top it off with the developers saying OoT is the IW but never saying this for either FSA or TP, despite being asked where they went in the timeline...

Still it was opened by Link (on purpose), not a group of thieves (by accident).
Accidental can also mean unintentional, which is more likely the case here.

So you're saying Ganondorf didn't intend to get the Triforce?

And the opening of the SR by the group of thieves was the rediscovery of the Sacred Realm

Proof?

Baloney. None of the others even knew they were Sages until Adult Link awakens them. They weren't Sages yet, and there is no indication in OoT that they were trying to find a Hero. Indeed, they went to the dungeons to try to solve the problems on their own.

Toru Osawa said he wrote OoT as the IW.

Yes, the Sages all tried to take care of things on their own... but the SNES manual says that battles with the demons took place before they could find the hero anyway. And all of the Sages, bar the one who didn't actually need to fight (Rauru) or were brainwashed (Nabooru) looked for Link's return to some capacity.

You're free to think so, to my thinking, that is the less convincing of the two
arguments.

My argument actually has to do with the plot.

Not necessarily.

Wtf do you mean "Not necessarily"? NoJ LttP says: "Then, the one who again discovered the sacred land was the thief called Ganondrof.

But, thankfully, he didn't know how to return to the World of Light."

"Where the Triforce still rested" means before anyone ever obtained the Triforce.

"Where the Triforce still rested"? That line is never said in the GBA LttP manual, SNES LttP manual, or the game itself.

The Triforce did not leave the Sacred Realm before the Seal War.

Prove it.

The developers say so.
Only fans say otherwise.
No game proves it.

The developers SAID so. Past tense, please, to avoid hopeless biasness.

What in-game evidence, however, was the OoT=SW quote based upon? The fact that Hyrule was the same between the two (which is factual based upon the most recent version of the game itself). The fact that Ganon was the same (as confirmed by Miyamoto at the same time, and in-game evidence).

Both of those are made 100% impossible because of TWW and FSA, both of which came after OoT.

By that virtue, I think it most reasonable to consider them connected.

And, imo, OoX in 2000 may have fixed that wierd gap with the Triforce in the official timeline.

(there was no trident conceived of yet in LoZ).

However the trident was added in BS LoZ. The intent behind the trident is clear.

Not to say that any fact of the SNES manual is now non-canon, but they may no longer be necessary parts of the ALttP story. Most of it was covered in OoT anyway.

Circular logic is circular.

Oh and when was the unabridged Agahnim story told in OoT?

Proof?

I'd like to hit two birds with one stone with this next quote. In 1991 the theif Ganondorf rediscovered the Sacred Realm and got the Triforce. Also, the Seal War story said that the leader of a band of theives, Ganondorf, went into the SR and got the Triforce.

Do you see the problem? If I have to choose between an abitrary interpretation of the text that may not even be correct, or what the text outright says, I'm going to go with what the text outright says.

Originally Posted by Table

Wtf do you mean "Not necessarily"? NoJ LttP says: "Then, the one who again discovered the sacred land was the thief called Ganondrof.

But, thankfully, he didn't know how to return to the World of Light."

What it doesn't say is that the realm was "rediscovered" when the Seal War happened.

"Where the Triforce still rested"? That line is never said in the GBA LttP manual, SNES LttP manual, or the game itself.

Link: A Link to the Past GBA manual story

Second paragraph, first sentence.

Prove it.

See above.

The developers SAID so. Past tense, please, to avoid hopeless biasness.

It is the only developer statement on the subject; it would only be past tense if the developers had said something else.

What in-game evidence, however, was the OoT=SW quote based upon?

In the Seal War, Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm, touched the Triforce, transformed the Sacred Realm into a world of darkness, spread darkness into Hyrule, and attacked the castle in an attempt to conquer the world of light as well. A summons was issued to the seven sages to seal the evil, and a hero wielding the Master Sword was sought for, but not found before Ganondorf's attack, which wiped out most of the Hylian Knights. In the end, however, the Seven Sages were able to seal Ganondorf away.

Literally all of this is either explicit or implicit in OoT.

The fact that Hyrule was the same between the two (which is factual based upon the most recent version of the game itself). The fact that Ganon was the same (as confirmed by Miyamoto at the same time, and in-game evidence).

1) ALttP doesn't say "Hyrule was the same land as in the Seal War," it only says "Hyrule was once inhabited by the Hylians," which would be true if it took place in a new Hyrule as well. On the other hand, "Hyrule" seems to be referenced as a myth in the intro legend.

2) Ganon was confirmed to be the same in [b]all[/i] games.

Both of those are made 100% impossible because of TWW and FSA, both of which came after OoT.

TWW and FSA don't actually contradict anything OoT copied from the Seal War story or that ALttP says about it, though.

TP, on the other hand, contradicts the Seal War story outright, as the Triforce has left the Sacred Realm before the Seal War.

And, imo, OoX in 2000 may have fixed that wierd gap with the Triforce in the official timeline.

I agree; but I don't agree that OoX symbolizes the Triforce returning to the Sacred Realm...

However the trident was added in BS LoZ. The intent behind the trident is clear.

I agree.

Circular logic is circular.

There's nothing circular about it. "It's still correct (positive), but it isn't part of the most recent release of the game (negative)." It's a two-pronged argument that leans a little both ways.

Oh and when was the unabridged Agahnim story told in OoT? I'd like to hit two birds with one stone with this next quote. In 1991 the theif Ganondorf rediscovered the Sacred Realm and got the Triforce. Also, the Seal War story said that the leader of a band of theives, Ganondorf, went into the SR and got the Triforce.

1) Agahnim isn't part of the Seal War.

2) OoT said the leader of a band of thieves, Ganondorf, went into the Sacred Realm and got the Triforce. OoT also showed us that this event was not a "rediscovery" of the Sacred Realm after the location had been lost, since the royal family still knew exactly where it was. Rather than assume, "oh well, OoT isn't the IW" (because the developers said it was despite this), I instead assume "the rediscovery of the Sacred Realm must have taken place later."

Given that it is now altogether impossible for ALttP to be a direct sequel to OoT, I'd say the developers think this too. The funny thing is, all timelines assume this, as it is a necessary fact if ALttP is to be part of the timeline, but some timelines also try to assume that the developers changed their minds about the IW.

'

Do you see the problem? If I have to choose between an abitrary interpretation of the text that may not even be correct, or what the text outright says, I'm going to go with what the text outright says.

I'm going to go with what the developers outright say, rather than what people want the timeline of the Seal War to look like.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

(In fact, the Dark World ALREADY exists as such in FSA...)

Sure, it might exist, but there's no proof that FSA's Dark World is the same one as ALttP's Dark World. In fact, isn't the Dark World in FSA only there becuase of the existence of the Dark Mirror? It created Shadow Link, and he can travel in between the Light and Dark world at will; this is because the Dark World is his realm. If it truly was the Dark World of ALttP, it would look more like that one, not a hazy copy of the Light World, but a Dark, gloomy, and darkened golden realm.

Top it off with the developers saying OoT is the IW but never saying this for either FSA or TP, despite being asked where they went in the timeline...

I can't deny that OoT was originally meant to be the Seal War, but that was back in 1998. Since then, Aonuma has seen the inconsistency and even tried to make FSA into the Seal War. Even though Miyamoto upended the teatable on that idea, the fact that a retcon was in order on the SW is very evident. Due to this event, I believe the OoT =/= the SW anymore, and Nintendo has proven this with its actions.

I don't think TP has anything to do with the SW though. That Interloper War is something completely different, imo. There's no talk of the SR itself being sealed, only the banishment of the Dark Interlopers is discussed.

Toru Osawa said he wrote OoT as the IW.

And Retcons kicked his ass. Bye bye, Toru Osawa.

My argument actually has to do with the plot.

Granted. However, this plot is outdated, as far as I and many others have noticed.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Neither TP nor FSA show the Sacred Realm becoming the Dark World, the Triforce resting in the Sacred Realm when the entrance was opened, or Sages sealing the Dark World. GBA ALttP's backstory says all three of these things happened;

TP and FSA are not the Seal War, however they set up Hyrule to be ready for the Seal War.
In TP the Temple of Time (with Master Sword) is now in a remote forest, ready to be forgotten,
as spoken of in the ALttP manual. Then in FSA there is no mention of the Temple of Time or
the Sacred Realm. The Master Sword is also not mentioned (although removed text could indicate
that the Master Sword is extant at the time of FSA, which we already knew since FSA has a new
Ganondorf). FSA even offers an alternate possibility for the thieves. Since Ganondorf is not
accepted by the Gerudo, he may have formed the band of thieves that runs amok in burning
Kakariko.

"all three of these things" did happen. Between TP and ALttP.

all three of these things happened in OoT.

But not as described in ALttP's backstory. Heaven forbid there is more than one struggle
for the Triforce ... A few years back, we all thought that there was only one Ganon, then FSA
came out giving us a second Ganondorf.

The point is that before FSA it looked like we had to settle for OoT as the Seal War despite the
flimsy, contradiction-filled connections this presented. When FSA introduced a second Ganondorf
this all changed. The story of the second Ganondorf can fully match up with the ALttP backstory.

If OoT is the events in ALttP's backstory, then Nintendo gave us an epic fail.
Look at this crap-load of contradictions:

- Knowledge of the Sacred Realm is not lost
- Sages are not searching for the Master Sword or a Hero
- A group of knights doesn't die protecting the Sages as they cast their seal
- No Hero is mentioned in ALttP's backstory
- The SR is not opened accidentally, or by a group of thieves
- Ganondorf does not wish on the Triforce, it splits in his hands
- The Sages don't seal the SR entrance to prevent evil from coming out, they thrust
Hyrule's evil into the SR

I believe ALttP's Japanese manual is fully canon. OoT = Seal War theorists consider it
either 'not canon', or horrendously flawed. It looks like we are finally getting a sequence
of games that verifies the Japanese ALttP manual as canon, despite everything OoT
made us think.

(In fact, the Dark World ALREADY exists as such in FSA...)

That's absolutely false. Many areas of FSA's Dark World are safe and monster-free, and
the NPCs who entered before Link were not transformed. The Dark World parallels
Hyrule, but there is no sign that it is corrupted during FSA. It's not until Ganon wishes
on the Triforce that it becomes corrupted.

So you're saying Ganondorf didn't intend to get the Triforce?

Hell no. Man, that's a sick twisting of my words. Ganondorf intended to get the Triforce,
but this doesn't mean crap since he's not the one who opened the SR in OoT.

AlttP's backstory, however, is a different matter entirely - a band of thieves open the SR by accident .

Proof?

You keep saying that the accidental opening of the SR did not take place when the SR was rediscovered.
The manual says (in this order):
- Knowledge of the SR was lost
- Blood was spilled for info about the Triforce
- A group of thieves accidentally opened the SR

I don't know what part of the sequential order presented in the manual you don't understand, so I am
asking you: Where in the manual (or the game) does it say (or even suggest) that these two
events happened at separate times? What is there you can show me to indicate you aren't completely
making this up?

Yes, the Sages all tried to take care of things on their own...

but the SNES manual says that battles with the demons took place before they could find the hero anyway.

You forgot to mention that the battles which took place before they could find the Hero resulted
in the sealing of the SR. I wonder why...

And all of the Sages, bar the one who didn't actually need to fight (Rauru) or were brainwashed (Nabooru) looked for Link's return to some capacity.

Hoping for his return is different than searching for him. Also, none of these people (aside from Zelda
and Rauru) had any inkling that Link was going to be the Hero who would save Hyrule, at least there
is no such indication. The (already awakened) Sages in the ALttP backstory were searching for a Hero
to save Hyrule, not hoping their personal friend (or fiancé) would return.

Second paragraph, first sentence.

Your quote: "Where the Triforce still rested"
Actual GBA ALttP quote: "WHERE THE MYSTICAL TRIFORCE WAS STILL HIDDEN"

Note the word "hidden". The goddesses "left" the Triforce in the Sacred Realm, meaning for
someone worthy to find it. "Hidden" suggests that mankind was trying to protect the
Triforce from evil. I think that the Triforce's initial use was before OoT. This is why the Triforce
is Hyrule's crest in OoT. Then the Triforce was "hidden" in the Sacred Realm until Link opened
the Door of Time on the AT - and until the Seal War on the CT.

Ganon was confirmed to be the same in all games.

That must've been said before FSA... FSA Ganondorf is clearly a new Ganondorf.

TP, on the other hand, contradicts the Seal War story outright, as the Triforce has left the Sacred Realm before the Seal War.

Wrong. As I said before, the GBA ALttP manual only says that the Triforce has not left the Sacred Realm
since it was "hidden" there. Hidden by man, not the goddesses.

Agahnim isn't part of the Seal War.

You are right. He comes after the Seal War is over.

OoT said the leader of a band of thieves, Ganondorf, went into the Sacred Realm and got the Triforce. OoT also showed us that this event was not a "rediscovery" of the Sacred Realm

But OoT did not show us that this was the SR entry the ALttP manual refers to.
Especially since the Triforce granted Ganon's wish in the ALttP backstory (unlike in OoT).

Rather than assume, "oh well, OoT isn't the IW" (because the developers said it was despite this)

What the developers said in the past is subject to change.

I instead assume "the rediscovery of the Sacred Realm must have taken place later."

Oh really? When did this rediscovery happen? And how did it happen?

The ALttP backstory says a group of thieves rediscovered the SR, but since you say that was OoT,
how are we supposed to know who rediscovered the SR in their stead?

I'm going to go with what the developers outright say, rather than what people want the timeline of the Seal War to look like.

Correction. You are going with an ancient quote about something which seems to be in the process of
change. I am not interpreting the Seal War into 'what I want it to look like'. I wanted the Seal War to
be the interloper conflict.

What I am doing is re-evaluating the Seal War in light of TP and FSA. Both of which present a Hyrule
in which knowledge of the Sacred Realm can become lost. FSA gives us a second Ganondorf, meaning
that the ALttP backstory doesn't have to refer to OoT Ganondorf any longer.

I'm not trying to be biased, I am simply seeing (and saying) that recent games would seem to indicate
that the Seal War is no longer supposed to be OoT. I am detecting a shift in the wind; having the Seal
War placement between TP and ALttP is something I never expected to occur. But I came to this
conclusion in light of recent games (TP and FSA). This is something I think the developers are hinting at,
and it comes as a surprise to me.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At this point, some of your posts are just ignoring my evidence, in order to repeat what you said before.
If this persists, then we would seem to be running out of discussion content and are simply fighting.

The bottom line is your entire argument is based on one thing:
The developers said OoT is the Seal War.

That would be nice if they said it after the release of TP and FSA. As it stands, it's an old
quote, and may no longer have any validity.

Think about it this way. If you asked the developers about the timeline before OoT,
they would have "confirmed" that the timeline was linear, yet no one would consider that
quote valid today, even though that was a fully "OFFICIAL" stance, from the "DEVELOPERS".

lol, it's funny that their quotations are held in such regard considering the ever-changing nature of
the timeline, and the fact that Miyamoto is not overly concerned with the timeline. His first concern
is gameplay, and if you ask if a particular connection is valid, in essence he says "Yeah sure, whatever "
He's a very nice (and open) guy.

The truth is Aonuma has been handed the timeline, and he'll fix the confusion
that has been made as he sees fit. It makes loads of sense to me to separate OoT
from the Seal War, despite any attempt in the past of passing off OoT (rather poorly)
as the Seal War.

My argument actually has to do with the plot.

This thread is about the Seal War. Let's drop the Oracles issue.

Originally Posted by Table

The developers SAID so. Past tense, please, to avoid hopeless biasness.

Thank you. They said it once, doesn't mean it still goes.

Originally Posted by Sparty

I can't deny that OoT was originally meant to be the Seal War, but that was back in 1998.

Thank you. It was a long time ago, but everyone ought to admit that the two stories never meshed well.
I believe this is something the developers are trying to rectify with the release of TP and FSA.

That Interloper War is something completely different, imo.

Yes the interloper conflict happened before OoT, when the people found the Triforce where the
goddesses had left it. I think the Seal War happened after TP, when the people decided it was safer
for the Triforce to be hidden away back where it belongs, because it was dangerous in the wrong hands.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

TP and FSA are not the Seal War, however they set up Hyrule to be ready for the Seal War.

I do like this possibility.

Heaven forbid there is more than one struggle
for the Triforce

... A few years back, we all thought that there was only one Ganon, then FSA came out giving us a second Ganondorf.

Silly FSA, destroying all we know and hold dear.

The point is that before FSA it looked like we had to settle for OoT as the Seal War despite the flimsy, contradiction-filled connections this presented. When FSA introduced a second Ganondorf this all changed. The story of the second Ganondorf can fully match up with the ALttP backstory.

I'm not convinced that ALttP's Ganondorf is the same one from FSA, but I'm not disregarding it as a possibility, remote though it is. Besides, I like where you're going with this.

If OoT is the events in ALttP's backstory, then Nintendo gave us an epic fail.

I should sig this, but I like Erimgard's quote better. (See my sig to see what I mean)

That's absolutely false (the Dark World in FSA being the same as the one in ALttP, that is). Many areas of FSA's Dark World are safe and monster-free, and the NPCs who entered before Link were not transformed. The Dark World parallels Hyrule, but there is no sign that it is corrupted during FSA. It's not until Ganon wishes on the Triforce that it becomes corrupted.

This is essentially what I was saying earlier, but with more supportive evidence on your part. Like I said, FSA's Dark World seems to have been created by the Dark Mirror. Though the manga is not Canon, it confirms this. For all we see of FSA's Dark World, it does seem to be a shadowy, hazy, dream-like, mirrored image of the Light World. ALttP's Dark World is a dark, foreboding, deadened, darkened version of the Light World, which is not the Light World at all but the SR transformed.

Your quote: "Where the Triforce still rested"
Actual GBA ALttP quote: "WHERE THE MYSTICAL TRIFORCE WAS STILL HIDDEN"

This is a weak argument, for it could be "hidden" by the Goddesses, but I see your point. And it could still be "resting" in the SR as well from the time that it was returned to it. (Though the BS doesn't allude to it ever being returned before). OoT does seem to imply that the Triforce has been used before though. People knew how to get into the SR, and Rauru's temple is even in the SR. I find it hard to believe that no one ever touched the Triforce before either.

As I said before, the GBA ALttP manual only says that the Triforce has not left the Sacred Realm since it was "hidden" there. Hidden by man, not the goddesses.

Entirely possible. Although, this is only a theory, so be careful when building other theories on top of this one, since it's still not tried and proven yet.

What the developers said in the past is subject to change.

Agreed.

I'm not trying to be biased, I am simply seeing (and saying) that recent games would seem to indicate that the Seal War is no longer supposed to be OoT. I am detecting a shift in the wind; having the Seal War placement between TP and ALttP is something I never expected to occur. But I came to this conclusion in light of recent games (TP and FSA). This is something I think the developers are hinting at, and it comes as a surprise to me.

I don't think they're hinting anymore that the SW is OoT. I think they're outright saying it, since FSA was originally supposed to be the SW before Miyamoto upended the teatable. This little action has led me to believe that the SW as OoT has long since been retconned, and Nintendo is still trying to find a good place to put it now. In between TP and ALttP seems a likely spot, though only time will tell.

The bottom line is your entire argument is based on one thing:
The developers said OoT is the Seal War.

That would be nice if they said it after the release of TP and FSA. As it stands, it's an old quote, and may no longer have any validity.

Correction. It has no validity any longer. People sticking to this notion are merely afraid of change. Aonuma is not afraid of change...he's only afraid of his boss, Miyamoto.

Yes the interloper conflict happened before OoT, when the people found the Triforce where the goddesses had left it.

It undoubtedly happened before OoT. It's because of this war that I think people had physical access to the SR and thus to the Triforce. They were defending the SR from these Interlopers. After the war is when I think the idea to create the MS came about and the locking of the entryway to the SR became a reality.

Originally Posted by Sparty

Entirely possible. Although, this is only a theory, so be careful when building other theories on top of this one, since it's still not tried and proven yet.

Good point. I can't completely prove my theory, but as long as there is a possibility
for it to flow nicely within the known timeline clues, well, that's all I was aiming for.

Typo?

I don't think they're hinting anymore that the SW is OoT.
I don't think they're hinting anymore that the SW isn't OoT.

It undoubtedly happened before OoT. It's because of this war that I think people had physical access to the SR and thus to the Triforce. They were defending the SR from these Interlopers. After the war is when I think the idea to create the MS came about and the locking of the entryway to the SR became a reality.

Agreed.

Aonuma is not afraid of change...he's only afraid of his boss, Miyamoto.

lol

What it doesn't say is that the realm was "rediscovered" when the Seal War happened.

However in 1991 it DID for sure. So it's not a new concept to developers.

Second paragraph, first sentence.

LOLNoA

Japanese version of the GBA LttP manual does NOT have that line (word-for-word, anyway).

See above.

NoJ version says: "After many years, people headed for the sacred place that hid the gold, the entrance to which was in the kingdom of Hyrule."

So the SR hides the gold, but I'd say it isn't nearly as much of an implication that the Triforce has never left the SR. Funny, though, how the, in your opinion, canon manual refers to all of the Hyrule's as the same. I mean after the SW it says:

"As a result, peace returned to Hyrule, and the people started to lead a peaceful living again."

Hell, that's just flat-out WRONG. Actually... it's NOT wrong if OoT isn't the SW. "However, suspicious incidents have been occurring in Hyrule since a mysterious priest who calls himself "Agunim" used as a pretext his confronting and suppressing a calamity of unknown origin that happened one year." Isn't it funny how this whole manual keeps talking about Hyrule? I mean like two paragraphs ago it talked about Hyrule, then again it refers to another Hyrule. And the game even refers to the ancient Hylians living in the current LttP Hyrule. Kinda wierd that that happens after the old Hyrule where the ancient Hylians thrived was completely erased, no?

1) ALttP doesn't say "Hyrule was the same land as in the Seal War," it only says "Hyrule was once inhabited by the Hylians," which would be true if it took place in a new Hyrule as well. On the other hand, "Hyrule" seems to be referenced as a myth in the intro legend.

Hyrule isn't referenced as a myth in the intro legend. It references the SW as a myth, but NOT Hyrule.
"Long ago, surrounded by mountains and forests,
the beauteous land of Hyrule...

It was said that somewhere in this region was gold possessing the powers of omnipotentence and omniscience.

The entrance to the sacred land where the gold was hidden was discovered in that Hyrule Kingdom, and

Many people fought, and vanished into the sacred land.

However, there were none who returned.
Worse, evil power came gushing forth from there.

Thereupon, the country's king commanded Seven Sages and had the entrance to the sacred land sealed.

The seal should never again have been undone.

....however, when those events had become legend..."

And the manual makes it quite obvious that the Hyrule is the same.

There is no way in hell I can ever believe that in the GBA manual (http://forums.legendsalliance.com/in...8&#entry397698) this line: "As a result, peace returned to Hyrule, and the people started to lead a peaceful living again." refers to an old Hyrule.

Then the NEXT line says: "However, suspicious incidents have been occurring in Hyrule since a mysterious priest who calls himself "Agunim" used as a pretext his confronting and suppressing a calamity of unknown origin that happened one year." which you say happens thousands of years later in a brand new Hyrule strangely identical to old Hyrule.

Sorry, but that's bull****. One line talks about peace being brought back to Hyrule, then the next sentence talks about a new Hyrule thousands of years after the old Hyrule has been destroyed and gone. Seriously... what?

EDIT: Damn it I hit post too early. Gonna make an edit to fit what else I was going to say.

2) Ganon was confirmed to be the same in [b]all[/i] games.

However LttP Ganon's origin was OoT which was an important part of the SW. That got screwed by FSA.

TWW and FSA don't actually contradict anything OoT copied from the Seal War story or that ALttP says about it, though.

See, though, they contradict logic and sense.

The flying spaghetti monster created everything in our world.

Does that contradict anything? No (well if you argue hard enough, anyway)
Is it ****ing ridiculous? Yeah

There is a difference between contradiction, and absolutely ridiculous and contains no logic what-so-ever.

Believing that in one sentence peace was brought to Hyrule, then in the next sentence that Hyrule has been erased and thousands of years later exists a new Hyrule strangely identical to the old one which contained a race that was extinct with the flood, all of the sudden brought back, just to be extinct again for LttP.

Does it outright contradict anything? No (if we define things the way you say we should)
Is it ridiculous? Yeah. Hell it's so ridiculous, if I brought that to freaken YOUTUBE the crappy youtube theorists would call me out and how stupid that is.

There's nothing circular about it. "It's still correct (positive), but it isn't part of the most recent release of the game (negative)." It's a two-pronged argument that leans a little both ways.

Saying that it was changed because OoT covered it is circular.

1) Agahnim isn't part of the Seal War.

I like how you say that Agahnim isn't part of the Seal War, instead of saying that Agahnim isn't part of OoT. The former is much, much more biased based upon the context.

Anyways, if OoT doesn't cover it, then what is the extremely timeline relevant reason for the drastic shortening of the Agahnim story?

2) OoT said the leader of a band of thieves, Ganondorf, went into the Sacred Realm and got the Triforce. OoT also showed us that this event was not a "rediscovery" of the Sacred Realm after the location had been lost, since the royal family still knew exactly where it was. Rather than assume, "oh well, OoT isn't the IW" (because the developers said it was despite this), I instead assume "the rediscovery of the Sacred Realm must have taken place later."

Of course in 1998 OoT was the SW.

Except I was referring to 1991. In 1991 the SW had to have been a rediscovery of the SR.

So the concept isn't new to developers (whether or not it is correct now, it's been that way in the past).

I'm going to go with what the developers outright say, rather than what people want the timeline of the Seal War to look like.

What the developers SAID 11 years ago, when there was almost a THIRD of the amount of games that there are now, and the evidence that the intent of 1998 was based upon was destroyed.

Too lazy to read through this all but:

You're wrong.
The Seal War is not during the re-discovery. The Seal War is the first discovery.
It's said that after creation word spread, and people began searching for the Sacred Realm, but no one was succesfull until the Seal War.

It was the first opening of it.

So you're saying the SW could've happened before OoT, but Ganondorf getting stuck in the Dark World happened much later?

Originally Posted by Sparty

So you're saying the SW could've happened before OoT, but Ganondorf getting stuck in the Dark World happened much later?

tis a popular theory.

Originally Posted by Tyras

tis a popular theory.

Most of the false ones are

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Too lazy to read through this all...

What a shame. Lots of good info here...

Originally Posted by Erimgard

The Seal War is not during the re-discovery. The Seal War is the first discovery.
It's said that after creation word spread, and people began searching for the Sacred Realm, but no one was succesfull until the Seal War.

It was the first opening of it.

- If the Seal War was the first discovery of the SR, the Seal War happened before OoT.
(They can't seal the SR with the ToT before they discover it now can they? The answer is no)
- The ALttP backstory says the Seal War was the rediscovery.

If the Seal War is not OoT, and not the rediscovery, what, pray tell, is it Erimgard?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have you considered this possibility?

after creation...

...and many Zelda games later, knowledge of the SR was lost, then...

...word spread, and people began searching for the Sacred Realm [once more], but no one was succesfull until the Seal War.

It doesn't say how long after creation, does it?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"After creation... Daphnes wished on the Triforce." Therefore it was never used before him???
See what I mean? Everything is "after creation" that doesn't tell us anything about where
to place it on the timeline.

Nowhere does ALttP state that the Triforce was not used before the Seal War, or that the
SR was not opened/entered before the Seal War. That's just your interpretation.

Cukeman is on fire! If only there was an appropriate picture of a Cukeman spontaneously combusting...

Will this do?



lol, sorry

Sure, it might exist, but there's no proof that FSA's Dark World is the same one as ALttP's Dark World. In fact, isn't the Dark World in FSA only there becuase of the existence of the Dark Mirror? It created Shadow Link, and he can travel in between the Light and Dark world at will; this is because the Dark World is his realm. If it truly was the Dark World of ALttP, it would look more like that one, not a hazy copy of the Light World, but a Dark, gloomy, and darkened golden realm.

This is a common misconception. The DW of FSA is NOT created by the DM, there's no proof for it.

- If the Seal War was the first discovery of the SR, the Seal War happened before OoT.
(They can't seal the SR with the ToT before they discover it now can they? The answer is no)
- The ALttP backstory says the Seal War was the rediscovery.

If the Seal War is not OoT, and not the rediscovery, what, pray tell, is it Erimgard?

The rediscovery is before ALttP, but the discovery is in OoT. You'll recall from Japanese translations we've determined that the SR was part of Hyrule pre OoT and TP before the ToT was built.

The Sacred Realm has always been a part of Hyrule. It's not like it's another dimension or anything. It's just another layer of the same world. The Light World is the surface, and the Sacred Realm exists within it.

If this wasn't always the case, then, what, was the Sacred Realm a neighborin province or something before it began to dwell in the heart of Hyrule, only accessible via portals?

That's bull****. Sorry, but the Sacred Realm seems to have always been hidden from the normal view, its entrances blocked off by the sages to keep evil from accessing the Royal Family's greatest secret treasure: the Triforce, a relic made by the Goddesses themselves.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

The rediscovery is before ALttP, but the discovery is in OoT.

Not sure what you mean to say here, but this order must be so:

- SR discovered, then interlopers
- temple of time built
- ocarina of time

The initial SR discovery must predate OoT.

You'll recall from Japanese translations we've determined that the SR was part of Hyrule pre OoT and TP before the ToT was built.

As far as I know the SR was always another dimension.
If it ever was a part of Hyrule, it's not relevant since in OoT and the Seal War,
the SR is not a part of Hyrule (hence the SR seal[s])

The Sacred Realm has always been a part of Hyrule. It's not like it's another dimension or anything. It's just another layer of the same world. The Light World is the surface, and the Sacred Realm exists within it.

I've always veiwed it as a parallel world.....

If this wasn't always the case, then, what, was the Sacred Realm a neighborin province or something before it began to dwell in the heart of Hyrule, only accessible via portals?

That's bull****. Sorry, but the Sacred Realm seems to have always been hidden from the normal view, its entrances blocked off by the sages to keep evil from accessing the Royal Family's greatest secret treasure: the Triforce, a relic made by the Goddesses themselves.

The SR was part of Hyrule like not even needeing to be accessed by portals when it was created. When the toT was built, it became....seperated. Period.

Also the Royal family isn't always in possesion of the Triforce.

- SR discovered, then interlopers
- temple of time built
- ocarina of time

Somewhat like that yes. Or the discovery could be OoT and the re-discovery before AlttP.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Somewhat like that yes. Or the discovery could be OoT and the re-discovery before AlttP.

Just what exactly, is discovered in OoT?