The Seal War's timeline placement is... there???

Who said the Sacred Realm needs to be opened during the Seal War?
What are you talking about?

You've got to be kidding. Link was never sealed in the SR...

@ "rebuttal": nope, I just mean to say it's a possibility, but I don't see any concrete support

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Who said the Sacred Realm needs to be opened during the Seal War?

Long ago, in Hyrule, a beautiful
kingdom surrounded by forests
and mountains...
legends told of an omnipotent
and omniscient Golden Power
that lay hidden.

It was hidden in a sacred
realm beyond the reach of men,
but one day a doorway to that realm
was suddenly opened...

You've got to be kidding. Link was never sealed in the SR...

Nice try

Originally Posted by Zelda, OoT

After you opened the door of
time, the Master Sword sealed you
away in the Sacred Realm...

You're getting sloppy.

I don't see any concrete support

The scroll was set aside for the time when a great king would come
The last great king used the Triforce
A king was the one to set aside the Triforce
The scroll helps Link get the Triforce
No other person is mentioned with regards to either kingship or the Triforce

So either:

1) The scroll is wrong
2) The "great king" line is meaningless
3) Link is the "great king" (as he is the only male figure of significance)

Ahhh..... now I see what you are talking about, I'll look at it again

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Actually, it's sealed along with Link in the Sacred Realm, which explains why neither the sword nor a hero could be found before Ganondorf's attack.

I never thought about it this way. Your timeline is making more and more sense to me and I think I might change my timeline some time in the future.

The ALttP manual says that the Sages had to search for the existence of the Master Sword and supposedly they found it. Could it be that the Master Sword is lost because it is under the Great Sea and is later found by the Sages when they search for it?

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Here's the thing, though: nowhere in the actual Imprisoning War story does it say that the realm was opened after it was rediscovered.

Let's see...

GBA ALttP:
The one who rediscovered
the Golden Land was
an evil thief named Ganondorf.

Japanese manual translation:
However, one day, due completely by accident, the entrance of the sacred place was opened by a band of thieves.

It says that the group (of thieves) pushed each other, their eye color changing, as they drew nearer (the Triforce).

When the desperate struggle among the group draw to an end, the group's leader had survived and won.

Ganon is the leader of the thieves.
Ganondorf rediscovered the SR when it was accidentally opened.

So you are right - the SR wasn't opened after it was rediscovered.
It was opened at the same time it was rediscovered.

In fact, the story says it was opened while the Triforce still rested there...

Well, duh. Ganondorf gets the Triforce when he enters.

...which in either timeline would fall during the time of OoT, certainly while its location is still known.

Not necessarily. The Triforce leaves the Sacred Realm during OoT, but at some
point it has to return to the Sacred Realm for ALttP to happen. Remember that
ALttP Ganondorf (not OoT Ganondorf) got stuck in the SR after obtaining the
Triforce.

What is said is that Ganon (in the current game) rediscovered the Sacred Realm after its location had been lost, but was unable to return to the world of light.

This fully agrees with my theory. It's location was discovered in the interloper
conflict, known in OoT, and rediscovered long after OoT when the knowledge
was lost. (Don't try to sell me the idea that the knowledge was lost when the
Triforce was initially discovered. You can't lose knowledge if you don't have
it in the first place. Rediscover means after OoT.)

However, if you take these two facts together, it seems more likely that Ganon (in the current game) did not rediscover the Sacred Realm in the Imprisoning War (OoT), but at a later time

I fully agree - Ganondorf did not rediscover the SR in OoT.
Hence why I place the Seal War long after OoT, with a new Ganondorf.

...and OoT is NOT the Imprisoning War (a.k.a. the Seal War).

- rather than that the Imprisoning War took place long after OoT.

The Imprisoning War IS the rediscovery.
Ganondorf rediscovers the SR, gets the Triforce, and is sealed inside the SR.
Thus the IW (a.k.a. SW) happened long after OoT.

I personally believe the story of the opening and sealing of the Sacred Realm to be OoT...

OoT shows an opening of the SR, but not an accidental opening, and not an
opening which took place after knowledge of the SR had been lost.

and the "rediscovery" of the Sacred Realm to occur in FSA.

Yeah, I place it thereabouts as well.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Actually, it's sealed along with Link in the Sacred Realm, which explains why neither the sword nor a hero could be found before Ganondorf's attack.

The Sages knew EXACTLY where the Hero and Master Sword were during the
7 years. Rauru kept watch over Link while he was frozen in time. OoT just doesn't
fit the part about the Sages searching for the MS and a Hero to wield it.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

So either:

1) The scroll is wrong
2) The "great king" line is meaningless
3) Link is the "great king" (as he is the only male figure of significance)

Just because AoL Link probably rules with the Triforce, that doesn't prove that
AoL Link's rule explains the Triforce placement in OoX. It may be, but there
could also be another explanation. I don't think for one moment that we've seen
the last of people messing about with the Triforce and it's location.

Originally Posted by A Link to the Past Manual

That is, until one day, completely by chance, the entrance to the Sacred Realm was opened by a certain group of thieves.

The Sacred Realm was opened by Link in OoT. Hmm....

^That's the SNES manual which is full of mistranslations and is un-Canon.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

^That's the SNES manual which is full of mistranslations and is un-Canon.

Some sentences in the Japanese manual have the same meaning as the
US manual. This is one of them

However, one day, due completely by accident, the entrance of the sacred place was opened by a band of thieves.

(Click the text to view source)

Originally Posted by Pinecove

^That's the SNES manual which is full of mistranslations and is un-Canon.

That's the Japanese ALttP manual. Yes, it is full of mistranslations from its own language.


Does anyone have a link to a Japanese GBA ALttP manual?

@ Cukeman: That link is where I got my quote from too.

^Uhm I think Impossible might have a link to it in his stickied thread. Or it could be in LOZH's thread on ZI.

^That's the SNES manual which is full of mistranslations and is un-Canon.

How is the NoJ SNES manual full of mistranslations?

And un-canon? Why should it not be canon? GBA LttP is quite easily just an abridged version in which the shortening has no significance what-so-ever.

That's the Japanese ALttP manual. Yes, it is full of mistranslations from its own language.

Um....exactly.

Okay let's get the GBA one because the SNES one was still retconned.

^Explain WHY it has to be retconned. What makes the GBA version's changes significant at all? It's just an abridged version, why would those changes have any significance?

I used to believe that it left Ganon out of the Seal War to let the interlopers take his place,
but I don't think so anymore...

Because for the SW to even exist nowadays, some speculation has to be done, so it's less specific so it doesn't contradict everything.

The SW contradicts everything now, anyways. GBA manual doesn't help with that.

Oh and GBA manual says this: "However, suspicious incidents have been occurring in Hyrule since a mysterious priest who calls himself "Agunim" used as a pretext his confronting and suppressing a calamity of unknown origin that happened one year."

In place of SNES version which says: "In Hyrule there was a peace due to the wisdom and faith deep in the people's hearts. As the sealing happened long ago, it became referred to as legend.However, one year many catastrophes occured. The cause behind it was unknown. Disease and drought could not be stopped even with magic. The King of Hyrule saw no end to the difficulties, and an investigation of the seal saw no change. The only thing people could do was to pray to the gods. A man named Agahnim appeared like a comet, and with mysterious magic he suppressed the catastrophes. The populace praised him as a hero, and the King saw it as the second coming of the seven sages, and invited him as priest to the castle. Once more, peace appeared to have returned to Hyrule. However, as Agahnim had scored off the land, he began to take the place of the king to rule Hyrule. Now the point had been reached when he could use that (political) power according to his heart's content. Recently, he drove away the King and intends to take the throne. Night after night, suspicious rituals are ongoing, and the bad rumours about it never cease to exist. Hyrule had moved to new tensions."

What is the oh-so significant and timeline relevant reason for the drastic shortening of the Agahnim story?

^ One thing that may or may not be a potential timeline problem is the 'second coming of the sages'

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Ganon is the leader of the thieves.
Ganondorf rediscovered the SR when it was accidentally opened.

So you are right - the SR wasn't opened after it was rediscovered.
It was opened at the same time it was rediscovered.

No, what I'm saying is the story of the realm being opened and turned into the Dark World (the IW) no longer takes place after the realm's location has been lost (it takes place in OoT), since the most recent versions of the story (OoT and GBA ALttP) contradict this.

Well, duh. Ganondorf gets the Triforce when he enters.

It doesn't rest there on either timeline, except for before and until OoT.

Not necessarily. The Triforce leaves the Sacred Realm during OoT, but at some point it has to return to the Sacred Realm for ALttP to happen.

Wrong. Other events (S&D) could account for the Triforce falling into Ganon's hands. ALttP itself never explains how Ganon got the Triforce.

Remember that ALttP Ganondorf (not OoT Ganondorf) got stuck in the SR after obtaining the Triforce.

Not necessarily.

This fully agrees with my theory. It's location was discovered in the interloper conflict, known in OoT, and rediscovered long after OoT when the knowledge was lost. (Don't try to sell me the idea that the knowledge was lost when the Triforce was initially discovered. You can't lose knowledge if you don't have it in the first place. Rediscover means after OoT.)

"Where the Triforce still rested" means before anyone ever obtained the Triforce.

I fully agree - Ganondorf did not rediscover the SR in OoT.
Hence why I place the Seal War long after OoT, with a new Ganondorf.

The Triforce did not leave the Sacred Realm before the Seal War.
The Triforce left the Sacred Realm before its location was lost, on both timelines.
Ergo, no matter what timeline the Seal War is on it must be OoT, or before OoT.

...and OoT is NOT the Imprisoning War (a.k.a. the Seal War).

The developers say so.
Only fans say otherwise.
No game proves it.

OoT shows an opening of the SR, but not an accidental opening, and not an opening which took place after knowledge of the SR had been lost.

The word "accidental" actually means "by chance." That Link would open the Sacred Realm was fortunate for Ganondorf.

The Sages knew EXACTLY where the Hero and Master Sword were during the 7 years. Rauru kept watch over Link while he was frozen in time. OoT just doesn't fit the part about the Sages searching for the MS and a Hero to wield it.

Rauru and Zelda are two of seven. The others sought after Link's return during the seven year sleep.

Just because AoL Link probably rules with the Triforce, that doesn't prove that AoL Link's rule explains the Triforce placement in OoX. It may be, but there could also be another explanation. I don't think for one moment that we've seen the last of people messing about with the Triforce and it's location.[/QUOTE]

I think that plus Ganon's title and the placement of the Triforce better match a post-LoZ/AoL placement than simply having the same character design (doesn't necessarily indicate it takes place AFTER; it could be BEFORE) and Ganon having the trident (there was no trident conceived of yet in LoZ).

By that virtue, I think it most reasonable to consider them connected.

Originally Posted by Table

And un-canon? Why should it not be canon? GBA LttP is quite easily just an abridged version in which the shortening has no significance what-so-ever.

It is the only version of the story new players will read.

Not to say that any fact of the SNES manual is now non-canon, but they may no longer be necessary parts of the ALttP story. Most of it was covered in OoT anyway.

^ Not really, if Nintendo made it, it's canon until I hear them say that it isn't. And none of this quoting, I'd need to learn Jap to hear it.

Originally Posted by Watties

Not really, if Nintendo made it, it's canon until I hear them say that it isn't.

It's not in the most recent version of ALttP. That is enough to call it into question, I'd say. However, again, as most of the SNES manual was covered in OoT, I'd say it's definitely canon anyway. Even if OoT's relationship to ALttP has changed.