Dark World / Imprisoning War questions

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I asked why the sages would seal Ganon's minions with him. You replied by saying Ganondorf was sealed in the SR at the end of OoT. I know that. What I don't know is that his monsters were sealed with him.

I answered that; the Dark World was apparently the only available place to seal Ganon and his minions (most of whom presumably resided in the Dark World). The Sages didn't have an extra place on hand, and using something like the Twilight Realm would have been stupid, seeing as how the people living there would have been screwed over.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Tell me what the Triforce in OoX does.

It senses that the Seasons and Time, two of the metaphysical Reasons of the world that it governs, are being thrown into chaos, so it selects someone who can fix things, Link, and teleports him to Holodrum and Labyrnna. The Triforce never gave any actual power to Link; at best, it only allowed him to push a rock.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I meant prove to me that the Triforce will tell Link how to use it.

It blatantly told Link how to use it in ALttP, and it also told Ganondorf how to use it in ALttP's manual. The Triforce apparently tells its masters how to use it.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

But we've already discussed how it isn't impossible for a seal to be bypassed,

One guy bypassing a seal by splitting his soul is much different from an entire army directly traveling between realms.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

and if it is opened, it can be closed again. In OoT the sages create a seal before Ganon is sealed in the SR remember? Then they close it.

Yet Ganondorf would presumably have to bust through the seal to escape and free his army, essentially destroying it.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Different Ganondorf.

You just proved my point; the Ganondorf from ALttP can't be the Ganondorf from OoT.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

LttP's is a rare case in that Link's quest directly involves the Dark World, and his capture of the Triforce takes place there.

Yet nothing implies that the Sacred Realm won't change if a wish is made outside of it.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

By that logic, in a OoT-IW-LttP timeline, there is no reason to mention the creation during the IW story, since the Triforce's relationship to the Sacred Realm doesn't directly involve the creation, but rather separate events that took place afterwards.

The creation story explains where the Triforce came from and how it works.

Also, I'm not arguing for an OoT-IW-ALttP timeline; I'm pointing out how an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline makes no sense.

I answered that; the Dark World was apparently the only available place to seal Ganon and his minions (most of whom presumably resided in the Dark World). The Sages didn't have an extra place on hand, and using something like the Twilight Realm would have been stupid, seeing as how the people living there would have been screwed over.

Only place? Yes.
Only option? Hell no.

Execution is an option.

It senses that the Seasons and Time, two of the metaphysical Reasons of the world that it governs, are being thrown into chaos, so it selects someone who can fix things, Link, and teleports him to Holodrum and Labyrnna. The Triforce never gave any actual power to Link; at best, it only allowed him to push a rock.

It helps you fight Onox is OoS.

One guy bypassing a seal by splitting his soul is much different from an entire army directly traveling between realms.

And this is why I argue it's one guy who passed a seal and raised a different army.

You just proved my point; the Ganondorf from ALttP can't be the Ganondorf from OoT.

You just proved MY point. If the Ganondorf from ALttP can't be the Ganondorf from OoT then OoT-ALttP is IMPOSSIBLE!

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Only place? Yes.
Only option? Hell no.

If it's the only place, it's the only available option for sealing. They had nowhere else to put him.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Execution is an option.

He's immortal in OoT.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

It helps you fight Onox is OoS.

How? You just use items to push the crystal containing Din away and then face off against Onox's dragon form. OoX Link did not get any real powers from the Triforce, and at best it was commanding him instead of the other way around.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

And this is why I argue it's one guy who passed a seal and raised a different army.

Yet that would take a good deal of time, and if TWW and ALttP are any indication, Ganon wants seals destroyed ASAP.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

You just proved MY point. If the Ganondorf from ALttP can't be the Ganondorf from OoT then OoT-ALttP is IMPOSSIBLE!

We're mainly arguing about the timeline from 1998; back then, OoT Ganon and ALttP Ganon could be the same guy in OoT-ALttP-LoZ-AoL. However, in an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP placement, they couldn't be the same guy, and there'd be no reason to mention the IW in ALttP to boot.

Sorry if this is rushed and unclear, but the Spirit Tracks leak is going on now and I'm focusing on it. Why did you bump this during the Spirit Tracks leak anyway?

Originally Posted by Table

If OoT=SW currently then mentioning the SW at all is completely pointless.

Why would it be? It was in OoT that the realm was first opened, the Triforce first stolen, the Dark World first created, and the Sages' seals to trap evil inside first cast. Regardless of what new games now take place between OoT and LttP, it's still true that LttP was made to follow that story - and since the plot (and most of the script) of LttP remained the same in the re-release, of course the IW story would still be mentioned.

Miyamoto took stuff out because it was confusing. What you propose happened is confusing as hell.

What you propose is that the new games somehow prove to us that the IW happens someplace besides OoT, even though no other game provides the crucial circumstances for the IW to even take place.

Is that not confusing?

If it's the only place, it's the only available option for sealing. They had nowhere else to put him.

NOT GANONDORF! HIS MONSTERS!!!

He's immortal in OoT.

I mean his monsters...

How? You just use items to push the crystal containing Din away and then face off against Onox's dragon form. OoX Link did not get any real powers from the Triforce, and at best it was commanding him instead of the other way around.

Doesn't Link like raise his hand or something then the Triforce plus the season element things kill Onox...I may be messing up the details.

Why did you bump this during the Spirit Tracks leak anyway?

I don;t know. Let's stop and do this some other time.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

NOT GANONDORF! HIS MONSTERS!!!

Like I said before, the Dark World is under Ganondorf's control; most of his monsters were probably there before the sealing. It was a Makai after all.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Doesn't Link like raise his hand or something then the Triforce plus the season element things kill Onox...I may be messing up the details.

I'm pretty sure that Onox simply died.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I don;t know. Let's stop and do this some other time.

Alright.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

We're mainly arguing about the timeline from 1998; back then, OoT Ganon and ALttP Ganon could be the same guy in OoT-ALttP-LoZ-AoL. However, in an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP placement, they couldn't be the same guy, and there'd be no reason to mention the IW in ALttP to boot.

Not to mention that Miyamoto, who created the OoT-LoZ/AoL-ALttP order, contradicts himself by saying they are the same Ganondorf.

Sorry to bump during the ST rush.

Originally Posted by Jarsh

Not to mention that Miyamoto, who created the OoT-LoZ/AoL-ALttP order, contradicts himself by saying they are the same Ganondorf.

LttP's manual also said that "Ganon, who threatened Hyrule" (referring to the events of LoZ) was born in the IW - so "one Ganon" seems to have been true long before OoT anyway.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

We're mainly arguing about the timeline from 1998; back then, OoT Ganon and ALttP Ganon could be the same guy in OoT-ALttP-LoZ-AoL.

Theoretically.

Ganon still would have to somehow get the other two Triforces between OoT and LttP - which is why LoZ/AoL coming in-between still made the most sense back then IMO.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Theoretically.

OoT ends with Ganondorf sealed in the Dark World.

ALttP begins with Ganondorf sealed in the Dark World.

No offense, but that's not merely theoretical.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Ganon still would have to somehow get the other two Triforces between OoT and LttP

The wielders of the ToC and the ToW could have simply died without passing on their pieces.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

OoT ends with Ganondorf sealed in the Dark World.

ALttP begins with Ganondorf sealed in the Dark World.

No offense, but that's not merely theoretical.

In OoT, Ganon has the Triforce of Power, and needs to gain the other two parts before making a wish. He created the Dark World using the Triforce of Power.

In LttP, Ganon has the full Triforce, after having wished on it to create the Dark World.

Either OoT heavily retconned LttP's internal plot, or the connection between the two was more complicated than that.

The wielders of the ToC and the ToW could have simply died without passing on their pieces.

Yes, but that wouldn't necessarily give Ganon the missing parts, and OoT doesn't remotely suggest that this would be the case.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

LttP's manual also said that "Ganon, who threatened Hyrule" (referring to the events of LoZ) was born in the IW - so "one Ganon" seems to have been true long before OoT anyway.

His hand dirty with fresh blood, the leader touched the Triforce and the crest's spirit whispered.

"A person with a wish, I await, make the wish."

The leader smiled, and the echo of his laugh echoed across time and space and even to the far away land of Hyrule.

The man's name was Ganondorf, commonly known as the evil thief Ganon.

At this time the evil King Ganon, who threatened Hyrule, was born.

He was already known as Ganon, but he became the evil King Ganon when he discovered the Triforce. Which is true to OoT, since he rules over Hyrule during Link's seven year sleep.

I don't see how this indicates a Ganon prior to OoT.

And still, the Ganondorf in OoT and the one in ALttP had to be the same, at the time. That may not be so now, but it had to be back then.

Rushed post. Busy.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

In OoT, Ganon has the Triforce of Power, and needs to gain the other two parts before making a wish. He created the Dark World using the Triforce of Power.

In LttP, Ganon has the full Triforce, after having wished on it to create the Dark World.

Ganon's eventual wish could have arguably just reinforced the corruption, shaping a "true" Dark World. It is clear that the Dark Worlds are ultimately meant to be the same place.

Originally Posted by Artemicion

Yes, but that wouldn't necessarily give Ganon the missing parts, and OoT doesn't remotely suggest that this would be the case.

If TWW and TP are any indications, Triforce pieces will apparently return to the Sacred Realm when they're no longer needed or when their master dies, much like how magical artifacts will often return to their resting places in stories.

If TWW and TP are any indications, Triforce pieces will apparently return to the Sacred Realm when they're no longer needed or when their master dies, much like how magical artifacts will often return to their resting places in stories.

Actually I'd like some explanation on this.

When in TWW did it give any indication? And in TP the mark just kinda disappeared, nothing seemed to imply it went to the SR.

And in LoZ the ToP was just left in Ganon's ashes.

Originally Posted by Table

When in TWW did it give any indication?

When Daphnes made his wish and no longer needed the Triforce, the pieces flew away, presumably returning to the Sacred Realm, their natural resting place.

Originally Posted by Table

And in TP the mark just kinda disappeared, nothing seemed to imply it went to the SR.

The Sacred Realm is the natural resting place of the Triforce. It's most likely that the ToP returned to what could be considered its home in TP.

Originally Posted by Table

And in LoZ the ToP was just left in Ganon's ashes.

The Triforce pieces were physically carried around in LoZ, not one with their wielders. Also, if anyone was the "proper" owner of the ToP back then, it was Zelda.