Dark World / Imprisoning War questions

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Wow, way to evade what I was really saying.

How did I evade it? The Sages and Zelda blatantly said that they sealed Ganondorf in his Dark World, which is where his demonic minions reside.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Same question to you.

Because creating an army of stray monsters in Hyrule isn't nearly as easy or quick as you suggest, and the time needed would potentially make Ganon lose the element of surprise.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Because of the power it grants when it's put together.

What power? You have to touch it and make a wish. Merely assembling it doesn't do anything, as shown in TWW when Daphnes claimed the Triforce after Ganondorf assembled it.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Also show me where ALttP implies that.

Implies? The Triforce blatantly tells Link that it grants wishes.

Originally Posted by Triforce (Japanese Translation of ALttP)

Welcome, Link...
I am the spirit of the Triforce.

... ... ...

The Triforce is the "Golden Power" the gods gave that grants the wish in the heart of the one who touches it.

If a righteous-hearted person touches it, a righteous wish... If an evil person touches it, an evil wish...

The stronger that person's wish is, the more the Triforce will demonstrate that power.

Ganon's wish was to claim the world. That evil wish changed the sacred land into the World of Darkness.
Once he had stored up power there, Ganon intended come out into the World of Light in order to fulfill his wish.
However, now that Ganon, who touched the Triforce, has fallen, the World of Darkness shall disappear as well.

The Triforce is waiting for a new owner. The "Golden Power" is in your hands.

Now, please try touching it,
with a wish in your heart.
... ... ... ...

Additionally, the Triforce spoke to Ganondorf in the manual.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Wow I guess two seals were made in OoT then. You evaded the question again.

I didn't evade any questions Pinecove; if a seal is essentially broken open, it's broken. The fact that Ganon's entire army could get through even after Ganon's death makes it quite clear that nothing is hindering them at that point.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

The way the ALttP manual describes it? You mean him taking it from the SR?

Yes; Ganondorf, apparently a mere thief, stumbling into the Sacred Realm by sheer chance, being the sole survivor of his gang's efforts to claim the Triforce, and claiming the entire thing at once. That is not OoT, and thanks to LoZ and AoL finishing off OoT's loose ends, there would be no reason to refer to OoT in ALttP's manual in an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline.

Originally Posted by Sparty

(It's theorized that Agahnim actually killed the Maidens and Zelda. Their souls were preserved in crystals in the Dark World, but their bodies are gone. The Wish on the Triforce not only brought the King of Hyrule and Link's Uncle back from the dead, but Zelda and the Maidens returned to normal as well. This supports the theory perpetuated in WW that destroying the bodies of the Sages will remove any large seals they cast, like the ones they put over the SR.)

In the ending credits, it says "Your uncle gets better." I'm not entirely sure if death counts as a sickness though.

Overall, I guess the Seal War has to be one of three things:

1. Before OoT;
2. After TP; or
3. After WW.

All three are equally possible placements.

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

In the ending credits, it says "Your uncle gets better." I'm not entirely sure if death counts as a sickness though.

Pshhh...semantics. The King and the Maidens are ****in' resurrected, *****es! The Triforce is a masterpiece of wonderful and awesome combined.

@Average Gamer

Quotes in OoT/WW imply that it's the gods granting the wishes, not the Triforce.
Remember, it's the "essence" of the Triforce speaking to us in aLttP.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Quotes in OoT/WW imply that it's the gods granting the wishes, not the Triforce.

I don't really see how that's important in this discussion.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Remember, it's the "essence" of the Triforce speaking to us in aLttP.

The essence of the Triforce is still effectively the Triforce, and, as you can see in the quote I posted, it was called the spirit of the Triforce in the Japanese version.

Pardon me, AG, as I didn't read the disagreement between you and Pinecove in its entirety. From what I skimmed, I thought you were debating whether it is the Triforce proper, or the gods through the Triforce, which grants wishes.

How did I evade it? The Sages and Zelda blatantly said that they sealed Ganondorf in his Dark World, which is where his demonic minions reside.

I asked why the sages would seal Ganon's minions with him. You replied by saying Ganondorf was sealed in the SR at the end of OoT. I know that. What I don't know is that his monsters were sealed with him.

Because creating an army of stray monsters in Hyrule isn't nearly as easy or quick as you suggest, and the time needed would potentially make Ganon lose the element of surprise.

There's your answer then.

What power? You have to touch it and make a wish. Merely assembling it doesn't do anything, as shown in TWW when Daphnes claimed the Triforce after Ganondorf assembled it.

Tell me what the Triforce in OoX does.

Implies? The Triforce blatantly tells Link that it grants wishes.

I meant prove to me that the Triforce will tell Link how to use it. You seemed to screw up your grammer there...

I didn't evade any questions Pinecove; if a seal is essentially broken open, it's broken. The fact that Ganon's entire army could get through even after Ganon's death makes it quite clear that nothing is hindering them at that point.

But we've already discussed how it isn't impossible for a seal to be bypassed, and if it is opened, it can be closed again. In OoT the sages create a seal before Ganon is sealed in the SR remember? Then they close it. You're not getting it....

Yes; Ganondorf, apparently a mere thief, stumbling into the Sacred Realm by sheer chance, being the sole survivor of his gang's efforts to claim the Triforce, and claiming the entire thing at once. That is not OoT, and thanks to LoZ and AoL finishing off OoT's loose ends, there would be no reason to refer to OoT in ALttP's manual in an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline.

Different Ganondorf. Also let's remember the GBA manual doesn't even mention Ganondorf in it...

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Different Ganondorf. Also let's remember the GBA manual doesn't even mention Ganondorf in it...

Yes, and you just proved his point. If ALTTP's Ganon is a different Ganondorf, that means the backstory of ALTTP's Ganon has nothing to do with OoT. I'll explain using the Miyamoto timeline.

OoT: Ganondorf is sealed in the Evil Realm by the Sages, never wished on the Triforce, and only obtained one piece.

LoZ: OoT's Ganon somehow escapes the Sages' seal and is killed by Link in Hyrule.

ALTTP: A totally new Ganondorf finds the Sacred Realm and wishes on the full Triforce, transforming the Sacred Realm into the Dark World.

See where the problem is? If ALTTP features a completely different Ganon, there is absolutely no point in OoT being the Seal War, because the Ganon from OoT was already dead and gone after LoZ. If OoT was the Seal War, LoZ completely resolves all of its events, making ALTTP completely irrelevant to OoT.

Originally Posted by Link92

If ALTTP features a completely different Ganon, there is absolutely no point in OoT being the Seal War, because the Ganon from OoT was already dead and gone...

Lovely

Originally Posted by Link92

If ALTTP features a completely different Ganon, there is absolutely no point in OoT being the Seal War, because the Ganon from OoT was already dead and gone after LoZ..

So? All the SW needs to be is the seal being placed on the Sacred Realm. Whether it's the same Ganon or not is irrelevant.

The Seal War also needs the loss of the SR entrance and MS, unless the SNES account is wrong.
I'm not gonna argue about this right now

Originally Posted by Triforce of the Gods

So? All the SW needs to be is the seal being placed on the Sacred Realm. Whether it's the same Ganon or not is irrelevant.

At this time the evil King Ganon, who threatened Hyrule, was born.

So you're saying that the manual is talking about a different Ganon than the one in the actual game?

Different Ganondorf, same essence of Ganon.

So? All the SW needs to be is the seal being placed on the Sacred Realm.

Except the OoT seal is broken. To quote myself, as I mentioned this earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted by Table

^What seal? Considering it talks about him obtaining the power of the gods (in OoT), and planned on turning the world into a Makai (which he likely wanted to in OoT (not explicitly stated, but clearly implied)), and was sealed by the power of the gods, I'd say it's quite clear that this quote refers to him destroying the seven sages' seal, instead of escaping the flood "seal".

Thus OoT being the SW makes mentioning it in LttP quite pointless, as everything that was done then has been finished (that Ganon/dorf destroyed, that Hyrule destroyed, that seal destroyed, etc).

Here I have a little test of how much sense your theory makes. Without looking at the text dumps to get any idea of context (like the context would make much difference in your favor. Actually things would make more sense for me with context, so I'm almost doing you a favor), distinguish which Hyrule and Ganon mentioned in LttP/LttP manual is old/new.
"However, suspicious incidents have been occurring in Hyrule"

"The King of Hyrule was greatly troubled, and had the seal studied, but found nothing. The people had nothing else to do but pray to the gods."

"Ganon's wish was to claim the world. That evil wish changed the sacred land into the World of Darkness."

"Long ago, surrounded by mountains and forests,
the beauteous land of Hyrule..."

"Don't give over this country of Hyrule to the likes of the priest."

"As a result, peace returned to Hyrule, and the people started to lead a peaceful living again."

"THE RETURN OF THE KING
HYRULE CASTLE"

Don't look at the text dump to check up with your theory, just think about your theory and give your FIRST thought on which Hyrule and Ganon they are referring to.

No cheating now. Remember, you'd only be cheating me, not your inner actual thoughts on the matter.

Different Ganondorf. Also let's remember the GBA manual doesn't even mention Ganondorf in it...

The same manual doesn't say that there were rumors that Agahnim wanted to kill the king, or that drought and famine happened prior to Agahnim's appearence, or that Agahnim appeared out of no where, or mention the fact that you'd say that there are two different Hyrules that existed thousands of years apart with a flood destroying everything coming in the middle, or say that the story of creation came from old Hylian books, or talk about the different forms of Triforce, or that they would remain until someone worthy got them, or that the Hylians passed on stories of their magic to their descendants.

What are the timeline relevant reasons for all of those?

Actually I'm working on a theory now based on an NoA change from Bill Trinen, who knows and adheres to the timeline, between the SNES and GBA manual NoA versions (which, like the different versions of TMC, are of COURSE more important). You'll see it soon.

Originally Posted by Triforce of the Gods

Different Ganondorf, same essence of Ganon.

The man's name was Ganondorf, commonly known as the evil thief Ganon.

At this time the evil King Ganon, who threatened Hyrule, was born.

This takes place just before the Seal War starts according to the manual. So the Ganondorf that it's referring to isn't the one from OoT?

^Aww DAMN I forgot to include that quote in my quiz.

Originally Posted by Table

Except the OoT seal is broken.

Either the seal was broken at some point between the IW and LttP
or the Triforce left the Sacred Realm between the creation and the IW.

Both of these pose problems; only one of these contradicts the 2002 version of the game.

The same manual doesn't say that there were rumors that Agahnim wanted to kill the king, or that drought and famine happened prior to Agahnim's appearence, or that Agahnim appeared out of no where, or mention the fact that you'd say that there are two different Hyrules that existed thousands of years apart with a flood destroying everything coming in the middle, or say that the story of creation came from old Hylian books, or talk about the different forms of Triforce, or that they would remain until someone worthy got them, or that the Hylians passed on stories of their magic to their descendants.

What are the timeline relevant reasons for all of those?

None of this **** matters to LttP's direct plot. The stuff about Agahnim was flavor detail from the original game (the script writer for LttP said he wrote such an extensive story to try to "sneak" more story into the game, because Miyamoto didn't like lots of story).

Since LttP doesn't take place in the sea, why would its backstory mention the flood?

It doesn't talk about the story of creation coming from Hylian writings because this matters even less than the details of Agahnim's takeover.

It doesn't talk about the different forms of Triforce because the individual parts don't play a role in LttP. etc. etc.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Yet, in ALttP, it appears that a good person wishing on the Triforce will restore the Sacred Realm to its former glory. Seeing as how Link wished on the Triforce in the end of AoL, Ganon's Makai, if it were the Dark World, should no longer exist.

LttP's is a rare case in that Link's quest directly involves the Dark World, and his capture of the Triforce takes place there.

In an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline with OoT as the IW, there would be no reason to mention the Imprisoning War during ALttP, seeing as how that Ganon was dead, that seal was broken, and that Dark World no longer existed.

By that logic, in a OoT-IW-LttP timeline, there is no reason to mention the creation during the IW story, since the Triforce's relationship to the Sacred Realm doesn't directly involve the creation, but rather separate events that took place afterwards.

So the problem inevitably winds up being that there is no viable alternative to explain how/when the IW takes place - with OoT being the most recent intention we've heard.

Originally Posted by Jarsh

This takes place just before the Seal War starts according to the manual. So the Ganondorf that it's referring to isn't the one from OoT?

Also, Miyamoto would say that they are the same, despite this contradicting his timeline.

During the time when Link is an adult, conditions are intensified. Ganon, from the Super NES game, is a human form before he transforms into a monster. Ganon's elements change during the adult, since he changes into a monster.

None of this **** matters to LttP's direct plot. The stuff about Agahnim was flavor detail from the original game (the script writer for LttP said he wrote such an extensive story to try to "sneak" more story into the game, because Miyamoto didn't like lots of story).

If OoT=SW currently then mentioning the SW at all is completely pointless.

Why do the SW changes between the SNES and GBA versions have significance, while the Agahnim changes don't?

Since LttP doesn't take place in the sea, why would its backstory mention the flood?

Why would it call two completely different the same exact thing without implying that they are different?

Miyamoto took stuff out because it was confusing. What you propose happened is confusing as hell.

Oh and thanks a TON Jarsh. A while back I wanted to give that quote to Pinecove but couldn't find it for the life of me.