Dark World / Imprisoning War questions

Originally Posted by Erimgard

He didn't agree with his boss though.
A: When that quote was said, he hadn't been under Miyamoto's employment for 5 years.
B: He claimed that Miyamoto himself didn't actually know the timeline. He wasn't agreeing with Miyamoto, he was saying "Miyamoto doesn't know anything, and I do"...and then proceeded to say the exact same thing Miyamoto said.

In short, Owsen is a tool.

He wasn't working under Miyamoto in 1999? He only said that Miyamoto didn't know the timeline in 2003.

However, in OoT's ending we see Ganondorf being sealed inside of the Sacred Realm, which has already been corrupted into a Makai at that point. Ganondorf is utterly furious and claims that he will slaughter the descendants of those who sealed him, and he still desires the Triforce.

If LoZ came right after OoT, Ganondorf would presumably attack Hyrule the second he broke free so that he could satisfy his ancient bloodlust and assemble the Triforce as soon as possible. By invading the moment he broke the seal, he'd be capitalizing on the element of surprise.

Thus, Ganondorf's only Makai at the time would have been the corrupted Sacred Realm.

Bull♥♥♥♥.

If Ganondorf only bypassed the seal, then he would have no way to get monsters out of there. Either way, your logic is based on speculation.

Your theory is: "Sinse Ganon's Makai in OoT is the SR if LoZ follows it it must be the SR which should die when Ganon does."

We know for a fact that Ganon's makai survives after LoZ, so even if his Makai in LoZ IS the SR it doesn't matter. Another theory is that the SR was corrupted twice.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Ganondorf only bypassed the seal, then he would have no way to get monsters out of there.

How would he bypass the seal without using a bunshin? In fact, why would he want to bypass the seal in the first place unless it was absolutely necessary? The seal would effectively separate him from one of his kingdoms and his entire army. Also, getting a new group of minions doesn't appear to be easy, seeing as how Agahnim had to settle for brainwashing Hyrule's own military.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

We know for a fact that Ganon's makai survives after LoZ, so even if his Makai in LoZ IS the SR it doesn't matter.

Yet, in ALttP, it appears that a good person wishing on the Triforce will restore the Sacred Realm to its former glory. Seeing as how Link wished on the Triforce in the end of AoL, Ganon's Makai, if it were the Dark World, should no longer exist.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Another theory is that the SR was corrupted twice.

Yet, as previously stated, that would require two Ganons, two groups of Sages, and two seals. In an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline with OoT as the IW, there would be no reason to mention the Imprisoning War during ALttP, seeing as how that Ganon was dead, that seal was broken, and that Dark World no longer existed.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

Yet, as previously stated, that would require two Ganons, two groups of Sages, and two seals. In an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline with OoT as the IW, there would be no reason to mention the Imprisoning War during ALttP, seeing as how that Ganon was dead, that seal was broken, and that Dark World no longer existed.

Exactly. If the order was ever OoT--LoZ/AoL--ALTTP, then OoT didn't even need to exist. OoT's Ganon would have died in LoZ, making it impossible for him to be the same Ganon as the one from ALTTP, so how can OoT possibly be the Imprisoning War, if the effects of the Imprisoning War were completely resolved in LoZ?

Originally Posted by Jarsh

He wasn't working under Miyamoto in 1999? He only said that Miyamoto didn't know the timeline in 2003.

-In 2003 he said Miyamoto didn't know the timeline.
-Ocarina of Time was the last game that Dan Owsen worked on.
-Thus, he hadn't had inside access to information regarding Miyamoto/timeline since 1998
-His statement of "I asked Miyamoto, and he said he didn't know" would be in relation to around the time of 1998.
-Miyamoto himself stated the timeline in 1998
-Dan was talking out of his ass.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Dan was talking out of his ass.

Or, Miyamoto was talking out of his ass on two occasion both which Dan followed suit. There, everyone was talking out of their asses. No need to pick and choose.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

-In 2003 he said Miyamoto didn't know the timeline.
-Ocarina of Time was the last game that Dan Owsen worked on.
-Thus, he hadn't had inside access to information regarding Miyamoto/timeline since 1998
-His statement of "I asked Miyamoto, and he said he didn't know" would be in relation to around the time of 1998.
-Miyamoto himself stated the timeline in 1998
-Dan was talking out of his ass.

Ah, I see what you're getting at. However, since I believe that Dan doesn't know anything about the timeline, and only recanted whatever Miyamoto said, I like this explanation:

Originally Posted by Nerushi

Or, Miyamoto was talking out of his ass on two occasion both which Dan followed suit. There, everyone was talking out of their asses. No need to pick and choose.

How would he bypass the seal without using a bunshin? In fact, why would he want to bypass the seal in the first place unless it was absolutely necessary? The seal would effectively separate him from one of his kingdoms and his entire army. Also, getting a new group of minions doesn't appear to be easy, seeing as how Agahnim had to settle for brainwashing Hyrule's own military.

Why seal him there in the first place then?

Also Aghanim brainwashing Hyrule's army was for the sake of capturing Link and Zelda IIRC.

Yet, in ALttP, it appears that a good person wishing on the Triforce will restore the Sacred Realm to its former glory. Seeing as how Link wished on the Triforce in the end of AoL, Ganon's Makai, if it were the Dark World, should no longer exist.

Proof that he wished upon the triforce at the end of AoL?

Yet, as previously stated, that would require two Ganons, two groups of Sages, and two seals. In an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline with OoT as the IW, there would be no reason to mention the Imprisoning War during ALttP, seeing as how that Ganon was dead, that seal was broken, and that Dark World no longer existed.

Unless we take the decendent of the OoT sages or the spirit of Ganon into acount which is why I far prefer the former theory.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Why seal him there in the first place then?

Considering what you were replying to, I'm not sure what you're trying to ask.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Also Aghanim brainwashing Hyrule's army was for the sake of capturing Link and Zelda IIRC.

Yet, according to your theory, Ganon would have no trouble just rounding up some monsters and conquering Hyrule anyway. Why go to the trouble of brainwashing the entire army if it wasn't necessary?

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Proof that he wished upon the triforce at the end of AoL?

He used the complete Triforce to break the spell on the sleeping Zelda. No offense, but that's blatantly obvious.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Unless we take the decendent of the OoT sages

But their connection to the OoT Sages wouldn't matter in an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline placement. A new group of Sages would have to create a new seal after AoL for a seal to exist in ALttP.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

or the spirit of Ganon into acount

Yet Ganon would still be doing something separate from OoT in an OoT-LoZ-Aol-ALttP timeline, meaning that there would be no reason to mention OoT in ALttP's backstory.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Dan was talking out of his ass.

Sigged.

Another casualty of the ERIMGARD SIG MACHINE

Considering what you were replying to, I'm not sure what you're trying to ask.

Why seal a man with his army?

My point is that the sages most likely seperated him from his army so he wouldn't have been able to access it anyways.

Yet, according to your theory, Ganon would have no trouble just rounding up some monsters and conquering Hyrule anyway. Why go to the trouble of brainwashing the entire army if it wasn't necessary?

Because it was nessasary in ALttP. He doesn't need to brainwash anyone in LoZ, we know that for a fact, so your question doesn't seem to really hold that much relevence: it's really "Why doesn't Ganon storm Hyrule with brute force in ALttP like he did in LoZ?" which you have to answer as much as I do.

He used the complete Triforce to break the spell on the sleeping Zelda. No offense, but that's blatantly obvious.

AoL plus the AoL manual seem to suggest that simply bringing the Triforce together would be enough to wake Zelda up though. It's not obvious and that's personal misconception.

But their connection to the OoT Sages wouldn't matter in an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline placement. A new group of Sages would have to create a new seal after AoL for a seal to exist in ALttP.

Unless of coarse, that seal was only opened, not broken. In OoT the sages create a seal on the SR then open it so Ganon can be sealed inside it. A similar situation may occur with this.

Yet Ganon would still be doing something separate from OoT in an OoT-LoZ-Aol-ALttP timeline, meaning that there would be no reason to mention OoT in ALttP's backstory.

I'm sorry?

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Another casualty of the ERIMGARD SIG MACHINE

I doctored it a bit to include Dan's last name, but I couldn't leave your statement untouched, you must understand.

'tis all good

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Why seal a man with his army?

The Sacred Realm was arguably the only available place where they could seal away Ganondorf and the evil under his command during OoT, and by sealing Ganondorf in the Dark World he at least wouldn't be able to terrorize any innocents in the place where they sent him, like he did in TP.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

My point is that the sages most likely seperated him from his army so he wouldn't have been able to access it anyways.

However, the Sages and Zelda do state that they will seal/sealed Ganondorf in the Dark World in OoT.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Because it was nessasary in ALttP.

Why was it necessary? If he could just round up a bunch of monsters, conquer the land, and capture the maidens like he captured Zelda in LoZ, why did he bother with brainwashing the army and covering up his deeds?

Also, keep in mind that Agahnim mainly intended to destroy the seal anyway.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

AoL plus the AoL manual seem to suggest that simply bringing the Triforce together would be enough to wake Zelda up though. It's not obvious and that's personal misconception.

Seeing as how the complete Triforce works by granting wishes, Link presumably made a wish, especially since ALttP suggests that the Triforce will tell a new master how to use it. Why would merely assembling the Triforce wake up the sleeping Zelda anyway?

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Unless of coarse, that seal was only opened, not broken.

If a seal is opened by force, it's effectively broken, especially if an entire army can get through and lesser minions have absolutely no problem traveling between the realms.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I'm sorry?

You said that Ganon may have reincarnated in response to the notion of two Ganons. Even if Ganon did reincarnate, an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline would require him obtaining the Triforce after AoL in the way that the ALttP manual describes. His actions thus wouldn't have anything to do with OoT, meaning that there would be no reason to mention OoT in ALttP's backstory.

However, the Sages and Zelda do state that they will seal/sealed Ganondorf in the Dark World in OoT.

Wow, way to evade what I was really saying.

Why was it necessary? If he could just round up a bunch of monsters, conquer the land, and capture the maidens like he captured Zelda in LoZ, why did he bother with brainwashing the army and covering up his deeds?

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Same question to you. This affects nothing.

Seeing as how the complete Triforce works by granting wishes, Link presumably made a wish, especially since ALttP suggests that the Triforce will tell a new master how to use it. Why would merely assembling the Triforce wake up the sleeping Zelda anyway?

Because of the power it grants when it's put together. Also show me where ALttP implies that. It doesn't.

If a seal is opened by force, it's effectively broken, especially if an entire army can get through and lesser minions have absolutely no problem traveling between the realms.

Wow I guess two seals were made in OoT then. You evaded the question again.

You said that Ganon may have reincarnated in response to the notion of two Ganons. Even if Ganon did reincarnate, an OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP timeline would require him obtaining the Triforce after AoL in the way that the ALttP manual describes. His actions thus wouldn't have anything to do with OoT, meaning that there would be no reason to mention OoT in ALttP's backstory.

The way the ALttP manual describes it? You mean him taking it from the SR?

The developers tried to say that OoT was developed as the Seal War. However, if OoT's Ganon dies in LoZ in the Light World, ALTTP's Ganon must be a totally new Ganon who discovers the Sacred Realm through other means completely unrelated to the events of OoT, making OoT completely irrelevant to ALTTP's Seal War story.

^ The Sages' Seal in OoT would still be relevant.

^What seal?

He obtained the power of the gods, planned on transforming the world into a Makai of darkness, and was sealed by the power of the gods. The emperor of the Makai in the ancient legend is that Ganondorf. I do not know why the gods’ seal has broken, but, now that he has been revived, the world has once again begun to be threatened by his evil magical powers.

Considering it talks about him obtaining the power of the gods (in OoT), and planned on turning the world into a Makai (which he likely wanted to in OoT (not explicitly stated, but clearly implied)), and was sealed by the power of the gods, I'd say it's quite clear that this quote refers to him destroying the seven sages' seal, instead of escaping the flood "seal".

Thus OoT being the SW makes mentioning it in LttP quite pointless, as everything that was done then has been finished (that Ganon/dorf destroyed, that Hyrule destroyed, that seal destroyed, etc).

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

^ The Sages' Seal in OoT would still be relevant.

The Sages Seal in OoT is made out to be poop. Once the Sages are dead, even the ones watching over the Wind and Earth Shrines to power the MS, Ganondorf can easily slip out of the now-unsealed SR. With the removal of the MS, the seal is completely gone.

It seems that this is a very common way to keep a seal active in the Zelda games, that is, through sustaining the life of the Sages. As we find out in ALttP, the reason the seal is still active on the Dark World is because the Sages had babies, and their bloodline is what gave the seal power. That's why Agahnim needed to abduct the descendants of the Sages; to sacrifice them and dissolve the seal with the removal of them from the Light World.

(It's theorized that Agahnim actually killed the Maidens and Zelda. Their souls were preserved in crystals in the Dark World, but their bodies are gone. The Wish on the Triforce not only brought the King of Hyrule and Link's Uncle back from the dead, but Zelda and the Maidens returned to normal as well. This supports the theory perpetuated in WW that destroying the bodies of the Sages will remove any large seals they cast, like the ones they put over the SR.)

I suggest that there is no Seal after WW. That means that ALttP either has to happen before WW, or OoT is NOT the SW.

To put more nails in this coffin, I will again affirm that FSA was meant to be the retconned presentation of the SW, something that someone as involved with Zelda's timeline as Aonuma thought to bring to fruition as was necessary to get rid of the contradictory nature of the SW being OoT. Even though Miyamoto upended the teatable on Aonuma's idea, the intent was still there. Though FSA may not be the SW anymore, we can safely assume that neither is OoT.