Dark World / Imprisoning War questions

-No reason for the King to have the Triforce post-aLttP to set up the AoL backstory, as it was in the Sacred Realm in aLttP's ending

Devil's advocate: Link could have brought it to the royal family at the end of ALttP.

So let's see, the Triforce is locked away in a parallel dimension, sealed off by a temple, all the keys to said seal are given to various tribes to keep any one person from opening up the dimension, a magical song only known by the Royal Family is needed to open the door, and a Sword which no one with any evil in their heard can touch is the final key...and STILL an evil guy manages to get in and touch the Triforce.

Now honestly, do you think Link is going to be "smart" enough to decide "Hey! Why don't I bring this OUT of the Sacred Realm, and put it in the castle. And THEN, even though I'm the chosen Hero of Hyrule, I'm going to LEAVE Hyrule, and leave the Triforce behind. That'll be jolly good fun!"

....I don't see it personally.

Hmmm...good point except for the fact of the MS: you don't need it as a key after OoT.

Well yes, but I was referring to the original intrusion. Either way, it doesn't make sense to leave the Triforce out in the open, and then GTFO Hyrule.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

It doesn't imply that the king used the Triforce.

"He used the Triforce to maintain peace" could be as similar to OoT's senario of "Ganondorf used the Triforce to cover Hyrule in darkness."

That's true, he may not have actually used it, but wouldn't he still be in possession of it?

...wait what?

Is that directed toward the back of ALttP's Japanese box, or did I just word that part of my post badly? I might as well just post it:

今度の舞台はリンクが活躍した頃よりも遥か昔、ハイラルが、まだ一つの王国であった時代。
This time, the stage is set very long before the time when Link accomplished a feat, the epoch when Hyrule was still one kingdom.

走る、ぶつかる、かつぐ、投げる。押す、引く、泳ぐ、剣を振る・・・
Run, strike, carry, throw. Push, pull, swim, swing the sword...

ハイラルの国中を自由自在に駆け巡り、黄金の力『トライフオース』を手にしたとき、あなたは伝説の勇者にな れるのです。
Roaming freely all over the country of Hyrule, you'll get used to being the hero of legend once you have obtained the golden power, the "Triforce".

Originally Posted by Pinecove

It works better with Geography, Ganon's titles, and the sleeping Zelda story.

TMC deosn't seem to have anything to do with Ganon's titles or the sleeping Zelda story. Explain further please.

@Jarsh
The stage is set when Hyrule is one Kingdom.
aLttP's manual states that, in between creation and the game itself, Hylians spread themseleves out and rooted in all parts of the world.

To me this says aLttP is not the era when Hyrule is one Kingdom, and thus, not the "stage is set" period. Rather, the Seal War is the "stage", and it predates the feat Link accomplished.

TMC deosn't seem to have anything to do with Ganon's titles or the sleeping Zelda story. Explain further please.

Ah but FSA and ALttP does. And LoZ obviously doesn't come inbetween TMC and FS.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Jarsh

That's true, he may not have actually used it, but wouldn't he still be in possession of it?

Nope. Ganondorf was only in possesion of the ToP in OoT.

And what Erim said. The stage means the SW, not ALttP.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

@Jarsh
The stage is set when Hyrule is one Kingdom.
aLttP's manual states that, in between creation and the game itself, Hylians spread themseleves out and rooted in all parts of the world.

"Rooted in all parts of the world" could just mean Hyrule since the very next line goes to talk about Hyrule. Since Hyrule is named after the Hylia, that must be where the Hylia settled.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

To me this says aLttP is not the era when Hyrule is one Kingdom, and thus, not the "stage is set" period. Rather, the Seal War is the "stage", and it predates the feat Link accomplished.

But ALttP isn't the SW. It could be taken to mean that "the stage is set" is the immediate Hyrule seen in ALttP; "very long before the time when Link accomplished a feat, the epoch when Hyrule was still one kingdom" could be talking of LoZ since LoZ/AoL's Hyrule wasn't really one kingdom, but an entire region; the feat being the defeat of Ganon in LoZ.

Originally Posted by LoZ's BS

In a little kingdom, located in the Hyrule region, generations had told about the golden triangular Triforce, which hold mysterious powers.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Nope. Ganondorf was only in possesion of the ToP in OoT.

Wait, I'm confused now. So when the manual says "a great King was said to have used the Triforce to maintain order in Hyrule", it's only referring to a piece of it?

Wait, I'm confused now. So when the manual says "a great King was said to have used the Triforce to maintain order in Hyrule", it's only referring to a piece of it?

Exactly.

I'll let Erim debate the other issue with you as he's much better at explaining it then I am.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Ah but FSA and ALttP does. And LoZ obviously doesn't come inbetween TMC and FS.

The way I'm thinking is that after Ganon destroyed Hyrule in LoZ, everyone moved north. There, they set up TMC Hyrule while the Death Mountain Area Hyrule was being rebuilt. Once that finished, they moved back to the DMA and FSA happens there. Is this even close to what you mean? Also, what happens to TMC Hyrule? Does that become Holodrum or something?

OoT was set at the Seal War, not ALttP. It could be taken to mean that "the stage is set" is the immediate Hyrule seen in ALttP; "very long before the time when Link accomplished a feat, the epoch when Hyrule was still one kingdom" could be talking of LoZ since LoZ/AoL's Hyrule wasn't really one kingdom, but an entire region; the feat being the defeat of Ganon in LoZ.

I'm saying that aLttP's Hyrule isn't one kingdom either. The manual for the game says that Hylians have spread out, and rooted themseleves in all parts of the world by this point in Hyrulean History.

Neither LoZ nor aLttP are the "epoch when Hyrule was one Kingdom". That epoch takes place before aLttP, aka, the Seal War.

I believe it's saying the stage is set during the Seal War. The stage for the game is not the time period in which it takes, but the Seal War, which sets up the game. The "feat" which Link accomplished (assumed to be LoZ/AoL) only needs to take place after the stage of the game, which I believe to be the Seal War, and not after aLttP itself.

While in general, I don't trust Dan Owsen, he came right out and admitted that he/the translation staff made an error when the implied on the English box that aLttP prequeled LoZ/AoL.

The way I'm thinking is that after Ganon destroyed Hyrule in LoZ, everyone moved north. There, they set up TMC Hyrule while the Death Mountain Area Hyrule was being rebuilt. Once that finished, they moved back to the DMA and FSA happens there. Is this even close to what you mean?

I don't think TMC Hyrule takes place north of Hyrule proper. I believe it happens in the same place as LoZ. Look at the graveyard.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

I don't think TMC Hyrule takes place north of Hyrule proper. I believe it happens in the same place as LoZ. Look at the graveyard.

Okay, but can you explain how FSA and ALttP affect LoZ - TMC and how TMC is "obviously" after LoZ?

Okay, but can you explain how FSA and ALttP affect LoZ - TMC and how TMC is "obviously" after LoZ?

We know TMC Hyrule FSA Hyrule and LoZ Hyrule are the same. LoZ either comes before TMC or after ALttP.

It's because of titles, aswell as the OoX-TMC references. That plus the Trident and stuff like that.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

I'm saying that aLttP's Hyrule isn't one kingdom either. The manual for the game says that Hylians have spread out, and rooted themseleves in all parts of the world by this point in Hyrulean History.

Neither LoZ nor aLttP are the "epoch when Hyrule was one Kingdom". That epoch takes place before aLttP, aka, the Seal War.

I believe it's saying the stage is set during the Seal War. The stage for the game is not the time period in which it takes, but the Seal War, which sets up the game. The "feat" which Link accomplished (assumed to be LoZ/AoL) only needs to take place after the stage of the game, which I believe to be the Seal War, and not after aLttP itself.

While in general, I don't trust Dan Owsen, he came right out and admitted that he/the translation staff made an error when the implied on the English box that aLttP prequeled LoZ/AoL.

But "all parts of the world" could simply mean "all parts of Hyrule" especially since they named it after themselves whereas the other lands in the world of Zelda (Holodrum, Labrynna) are certainly not named after them.

As for the stage being the SW, I take "the stage is set" to mean the setting of the game, which is after the SW. For example, in Scarface the stage is set in Florida, 1980. Certainly, important things happened before the setting of the movie (such as the Bay of Pigs) and are relevant to the plot, but they are in the movie's past, the current is 1980. Similar to ALttP, how the SW is told as a past-tense event in the beginning, from the current standpoint of whenever point in time ALttP takes place.

And it's not that Dan Owsen said they translated it incorrectly, it's that the box was just plain wrong.

Question: Dan, it appears something about the Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past translation is jumbled. It is said the events played out in Ocarina of Time were the events that happened in the story of A Link to the Past, and therefore were to solve many story holes. But if Zelda 3's instruction manual is read, these events sound completely different, and now there seem to be more holes than ever. It clearly states on the back of the box of A Link to the Past that it was a prequel to Zelda’s 1 and 2, but Miyamoto says it comes after them. What's the truth?

Dan: The truth is, the text on the box (and possibly the Nintendo Power guide) is wrong. D'oh! If you just ignore the box text, the stories fit together better. Basically, the events in Ocarina are the "Imprisoning War" described in the SNES version's story. The Golden Land was the Sacred Realm before Ganondorf corrupted it. The order of the stories is: Ocarina, Zelda 1, Zelda 2, A Link to the Past. Since Link's Awakening was a dream (or was it?) it's hard to say where it fits.

His explanation could also apply to OoT - ALttP - LoZ/AoL, but it just sounds like he's agreeing with his boss; I mean, I certainly would say my boss is correct over a box.

Originally Posted by Pinecove

We know TMC Hyrule FSA Hyrule and LoZ Hyrule are the same. LoZ either comes before TMC or after ALttP.

It's because of titles, aswell as the OoX-TMC references. That plus the Trident and stuff like that.

Is there anything to suggest it other than things that could possibly be cameos?

Originally Posted by Pinecove

With your "Makai being SR" theory, I have to say I disagree. If OoT-ALttP-LoZ happens then Ganon's Makai isn't the SR and it has to be something else-hell. That being said it's possible for Ganon's Maki in LoZ/AoL to also be hell, even if the order is OoT-LoZ-ALttP.

However, in OoT's ending we see Ganondorf being sealed inside of the Sacred Realm, which has already been corrupted into a Makai at that point. Ganondorf is utterly furious and claims that he will slaughter the descendants of those who sealed him, and he still desires the Triforce.

If LoZ came right after OoT, Ganondorf would presumably attack Hyrule the second he broke free so that he could satisfy his ancient bloodlust and assemble the Triforce as soon as possible. By invading the moment he broke the seal, he'd be capitalizing on the element of surprise.

Thus, Ganondorf's only Makai at the time would have been the corrupted Sacred Realm.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

-Triforce incosistency in between OoT/aLttP

The bearers of the ToW and the ToC may have simply died without passing on their pieces of the Triforce.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

-Sage/Town Name inconsistency if LoZ/AoL come after aLttP

How so?

Ultimately, the OoT Sages themselves are a plot hole. ALttP stated that the Sage bloodline was literal, meaning that, if the maidens are any indication, all of the IW Sages had to have been Hylians.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

-Sleeping Zelda cannot be "first generation" Zelda

That quote has been discussed before. Because the word for "first generation" could also mean "founder", it was determined that the sleeping Zelda could have simply been the founder of the naming tradition. It sounds far more likely than OoT Zelda having an unmentioned brother who somehow survived Ganondorf's reign. Also, the AoL manual heavily suggests that the Great King possessed and used the Triforce, something that OoT Zelda's father certainly never did.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

-Unexplained Ganon resurrection

It could be simple reincarnation. It would also explain why he appears to have been a demon all along in LoZ; his spirit just became more corrupt and evil over time.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

-Unexplained change of titles (if you believe it relevant)

I've never believed that the titles were truly important. Great Demon King, Demon King of Darkness, and King of Evil are titles that could easily apply to every incarnation of Ganon.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

-No reason for the King to have the Triforce post-aLttP to set up the AoL backstory, as it was in the Sacred Realm in aLttP's ending

As others have said, Link may have simply given the Triforce to the king so that Hyrule could prosper. Judging from LA, Link apparently had no interest in keeping the Triforce, and after ALttP it doesn't seem like it'd be too hard for someone to access the Sacred Realm at that point anyway.

Originally Posted by Jarsh

His explanation could also apply to OoT - ALttP - LoZ/AoL, but it just sounds like he's agreeing with his boss; I mean, I certainly would say my boss is correct over a box.

He didn't agree with his boss though.
A: When that quote was said, he hadn't been under Miyamoto's employment for 5 years.
B: He claimed that Miyamoto himself didn't actually know the timeline. He wasn't agreeing with Miyamoto, he was saying "Miyamoto doesn't know anything, and I do"...and then proceeded to say the exact same thing Miyamoto said.

In short, Owsen is a tool.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

The bearers of the ToW and the ToC may have simply died without passing on their pieces of the Triforce.

The original SNES story stated that Ganon wished on the Triforce during the Seal War though, requiring him to have obtained the entire thing at that point. He did no such thing in OoT.

How so?

Ultimately, the OoT Sages themselves are a plot hole. ALttP stated that the Sage bloodline was literal, meaning that, if the maidens are any indication, all of the IW Sages had to have been Hylians.

Because the Sages aren't remembered by name in aLttP but are In LoZ/AoL.

And only Sarahasala (I'm sure I spelled it wrong) is said to be a blood descendant in the Japanese.

It could be simple reincarnation. It would also explain why he appears to have been a demon all along in LoZ; his spirit just became more corrupt and evil over time.

And the title change?

Originally Posted by Erimgard

The original SNES story stated that Ganon wished on the Triforce during the Seal War though, requiring him to have obtained the entire thing at that point. He did no such thing in OoT.

If OoT is the Seal War and your placement is OoT-LoZ-AoL-ALttP, you get that same problem.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

Because the Sages aren't remembered by name in aLttP but are In LoZ/AoL.

However, the Sages in ALttP were simply referred to as a group throughout the game. One could argue that, back in 1998, the specific names were remembered and there just weren't towns named after them yet.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

And only Sarahasala (I'm sure I spelled it wrong) is said to be a blood descendant in the Japanese.

The term used applies to a whole family or group. Here's the Zelda Legends translation:

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Translation (Sahasrahla)

いかにもワシが長老であり
７賢者のしそんの１人
サハスラーラじゃ。

　…　…　…なんと
リンクよ、おさないお前が
退魔の剣　求めておるのか！

じゃが、あの剣は誰でも使える
わけではのうてな。
３匹の魔物を倒し３つの紋章を
手にした『勇者』だけが使い手
になれるとハイリアの民は
伝えとる　…　…　…
いどんでみるか？

I am indeed Sahasralah, the elder, one of the descendants of the Seven Sages.

... ... ... what?
Link, is someone so young as you seeking the magic-repelling sword!

But it's not the case that just anyone can use that sword.
Only the "Hero" who has defeated the three monsters and obtained the three crests can become its master, as the Hylians passed down ... ... ...
Will you attempt the challenge?

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Translation Translators' Commentary

子孫 (しそん, shison) means descendant, posterity, or offspring. Note its relationship to 一族 (ichizoku), which means family or household. This word is used to describe the family of sages, the family of Knights, the Goron people, etc. In OoT Ganondorf uses this word when he says he will exterminate everyones' descendants. He's actually promising to wipe out their respective families. So descendant, in this context, seems to mean a literal blood relation within a family. Which makes it difficult to explain how the sages all became Hylian. The whole issue is still open to interpretation.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

And the title change?

If you're referring to "Yami no Maou" being Ganon's title in ALttP in regards to an OoT-ALttP-LoZ-AoL timeline, that may have just been the product of the Hyrulians messing up the title over the years. Ganon never calls himself the Yami no Maou in the game. I don't think that Ganon's titles are really important though.