tMC...first? What?

Can someone tell me why people place tMC first? What's the deal with this HoM that everyonethinks that he's first?

Where is any of this blatantly put, or enough so people think this?
I'm going to bed now, so I hope to hear something in the morning.

Well TMC has a lot of the origin stuff, like the hat. The HoM didn't wear a hat and the hero after did, which is why all the other hero's (chosen by the gods) wore hat's.

The hat argument again? Ugh.

I'm not an MC first guy (yet). I'm open to all ideas, but I think it fits after WW in "New Hyrule" better.

Originally Posted by Exziron

Well TMC has a lot of the origin stuff, like the hat. The HoM didn't wear a hat and the hero after did, which is why all the other hero's (chosen by the gods) wore hat's.

i always felt this was easily countered by the HoT wearing a green tunic and hat because it was a kokiri custom

i guess they kinda counter eachother..
but the timeline shouldnt be based on a minor detail like a hat

^It's not based on only that, that was just an example.
If you want true convincing detail's get Cukeman here,

oh i know
i recently played MC for the first time and did see evidence suggesting it was first
but things like the triforce and the master swords absence swayed me the other way
so...lets bring in cukeman

tMC can only be placed definitively by examining two things: the placement of LttP: AT or CT, and the connection between FSA and LttP.

The references in TP lead me to believe that LttP is on the CT, and the fact that FSA has more in common with LttP than anything else is a strong indicator that they are connected.

We then have OoT-TP-FSA-LttP. If we consider the name changes for geographical locations in tMC, then it makes the most sense for it to be prior to OoT, with the names changing only once. tMC-OoT-TP-FSA-LttP.

My biggest qualm with WW-tMC is the pure assumption that a New Hyrule was ever founded, and the Old Hyrule characteristics of FSA in this "New Hyrule."

I have posted this explanation every other day for the past month. please lurk more?

The Minish would have had to existed pre OoT because of the hat thing, and because they were hiding things under the grass. ?

I'm mentioned? lol
Here are some reasons I theorize that The Minish Cap is first:

- In the Minish Cap we learn that the Light Force is housed in Zelda, and that it has been
passed down from princess to princess. This could be the explanation for Zelda's mystical
powers in every Zelda game, implying that MC is very early in the timeline.

- WW Link's Shield is a relic from pre-flood Hyrule. It is said to have been used
by an earlier Hero. We know this is not OoT Link's Shield. It couldn't be. This
shield has been passed down in WW Link's family, and WW Link has no connection
to the legendary one (OoT Link).
I believe that WW Link's shield used to belong to MC Link, kept as a memento
(a gift from Princess Zelda); both the vendor in The Minish Cap and
Wind Waker's Tetra poke fun at the small size of the shield.
Here I have posted quote evidence which goes into this topic in some detail.
Theorists who place The Minish Cap after WW face the problem that a new
culture is manufacturing shields whose design is a relic from the past...

- Daphnes is from an age gone by, before Hyrule was sealed under the Great Sea.
Daphnes dresses like Daltus does. Considering the massive culture shift in Wind Waker,
I doubt that Daphnes' style of dress continues into the new world. More likely Daphnes
is dressing in the tradition passed down by the pre-flood Kings of Hyrule.

- The Hero of Men legend appears to be mankind's first encounter with the Picori.
The Picori are given credit for items hidden in pots, grass, and bushes. This means
that the Hero of Men legend would predate every game with items hidden in pots, etc.

- In ALttP, the Pegasus Boots are a relic from the Hylian age, yet they are commonly
manufactured in The Minish Cap. MC after WW or ALttP is unlikely, as both
games are distanced from the Hylian age.

- The same japanese word is used for Force Gems and Light Force.
I think the Hero of Men legend (which introduced the Light Force)
must predate any game with Force Gems in it.

- Phantom Hourglass has Force Gems. Since Force Gems and the Light Force
seem to be the same form of energy, I conclude that Force Gems did not exist
until after mankind was given the Light Force. Of course this means that the
Hero of Men can't be after PH, so it must be before. Since there are no Heroes
between OoT and WW/PH, the Hero of Men must predate OoT.

- Some theorists try to throw you for a loop by pointing out that in several
Zelda games, Link begins the game without a cap (implying that the cap
is not an important timeline connection). What they leave out, of course,
is the fact that The Minish Cap is the only game in the series in which
Link wears the Hero's Clothes without a cap. In every other instance, Link
receives a cap along with the clothes as a part of the standard Hero uniform.

Some of these reasons may be subtle, but that's a long list of things to ignore...

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Since there are no Heroes between OoT and WW/PH, the Hero of Men must predate OoT.

Why do people keep saying that no heroes can come between OoT and WW, if you say that the fact was given in WW backstory ZeldaZealot will beat you over the head with an Irish walking cane, for the only thing that WW backstory indicates is that no game featuring Ganon as the main villian can come between OoT and WW.

Which means MC can come between OoT and WW, but then someones has to explain how the sword survived the flood and such.

Why do people keep saying that no heroes can come between OoT and WW, if you say that the fact was given in WW backstory ZeldaZealot will beat you over the head with an Irish walking cane, for the only thing that WW backstory indicates is that no game featuring Ganon as the main villian can come between OoT and WW.

Because at the end of OoT we SEE Link disappear through time. We then SEE the results of this in tWW's backstory- there is NO HERO so the world falls into despair upon Ganon's return.

Ganon isn't specific to it- there is no Hero from the end of OoT to the beginning of tWW because he was not there to carry on the line of heroes as he was in TP.

No game featuring LINK can come between.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

I'm mentioned? lol
Here are some reasons I theorize that The Minish Cap is first:

- In the Minish Cap we learn that the Light Force is housed in Zelda, and that it has been
passed down from princess to princess. This could be the explanation for Zelda's mystical
powers in every Zelda game, implying that MC is very early in the timeline.

Or because she's Hylian?

- WW Link's Shield is a relic from pre-flood Hyrule. It is said to have been used
by an earlier Hero. We know this is not OoT Link's Shield. It couldn't be. This
shield has been passed down in WW Link's family, and WW Link has no connection
to the legendary one (OoT Link).
I believe that WW Link's shield used to belong to MC Link, kept as a memento
(a gift from Princess Zelda); both the vendor in The Minish Cap and
Wind Waker's Tetra poke fun at the small size of the shield.
Here I have posted quote evidence which goes into this topic in some detail.
Theorists who place The Minish Cap after WW face the problem that a new
culture is manufacturing shields whose design is a relic from the past...

Okay, that's buyable.

- Daphnes is from an age gone by, before Hyrule was sealed under the Great Sea.
Daphnes dresses like Daltus does. Considering the massive culture shift in Wind Waker,
I doubt that Daphnes' style of dress continues into the new world. More likely Daphnes
is dressing in the tradition passed down by the pre-flood Kings of Hyrule.

In a universe where symbolism means a whole lot more than anything blatantly apparent, one would probably overlook this.

[/quote]- The Hero of Men legend appears to be mankind's first encounter with the Picori.
The Picori are given credit for items hidden in pots, grass, and bushes. This means
that the Hero of Men legend would predate every game with items hidden in pots, etc.[/quote]

They could have been doing so before it was mentioned in tMC.

- In ALttP, the Pegasus Boots are a relic from the Hylian age, yet they are commonly
manufactured in The Minish Cap. MC after WW or ALttP is unlikely, as both
games are distanced from the Hylian age.

And the games are hundres of years apart. What?

- The same japanese word is used for Force Gems and Light Force.
I think the Hero of Men legend (which introduced the Light Force)
must predate any game with Force Gems in it.

- Phantom Hourglass has Force Gems. Since Force Gems and the Light Force
seem to be the same form of energy, I conclude that Force Gems did not exist
until after mankind was given the Light Force. Of course this means that the
Hero of Men can't be after PH, so it must be before. Since there are no Heroes
between OoT and WW/PH, the Hero of Men must predate OoT.

This is a convincing argument here.

- Some theorists try to throw you for a loop by pointing out that in several
Zelda games, Link begins the game without a cap (implying that the cap
is not an important timeline connection). What they leave out, of course,
is the fact that The Minish Cap is the only game in the series in which
Link wears the Hero's Clothes without a cap. In every other instance, Link
receives a cap along with the clothes as a part of the standard Hero uniform.

Some of these reasons may be subtle, but that's a long list of things to ignore...

The last part I seem to have trouble with. Does MC blatantly come out and say that because of him, every other Link wears a hat?

Cukeman ftw! I especially liked that part about Daphnes in relation to Daltus (and Gustaf). Bravo!

This is the one, most outstanding reason I don't like MC first, and it isn't really much of an argument, just more of a pet peeve.

So, if we had MC first, then went OoT, and now to the CT, we would have

MC-->OoTCT/MM-->TP-->FS/FSA-->ALttP

Now, for the part that annoys me. Where the hell is mention of the FS in OoT and TP. Sure, it isn't important to the story, and as Zora mentioned in an earlier post, we don't get to see everything. But, during that little phase in Twilight Princess when Hyrule gets blown to hell by Zant and Ganon, that the four sword would just go un-noticed and stay the exact same as it, safe in its pedestal, not touched, not mentioned, not even seen when we roam that big ass castle. Not only that, but even though this part does not happen in the CT, Hyrule castle gets blown to hell as well. We still see the four sword. In OoT, the only mention of any legendary blade in the Master Sword. Wait... why would they create ANOTHER legendary blade to defeat evil if there already is one? Makes no sense IMO.

WARNING FAN FICTION: The only thing that maybe could have happend in the assumption there is only one Ganon is that he had some sort of back up plan and sealed a part of himself in the four sword instead of dying. FAN FICTION OVER.

Originally Posted by Watties

Now, for the part that annoys me. Where the hell is mention of the FS in OoT and TP. Sure, it isn't important to the story, and as Zora mentioned in an earlier post, we don't get to see everything. But, during that little phase in Twilight Princess when Hyrule gets blown to hell by Zant and Ganon, that the four sword would just go un-noticed and stay the exact same as it, safe in its pedestal, not touched, not mentioned, not even seen when we roam that big ass castle. Not only that, but even though this part does not happen in the CT, Hyrule castle gets blown to hell as well. We still see the four sword. In OoT, the only mention of any legendary blade in the Master Sword. Wait... why would they create ANOTHER legendary blade to defeat evil if there already is one? Makes no sense IMO.

Something your small mind can't comprehend is:

A) When Oo'T came out the the FS story arc hadn't been written yet.

B) OoT and TP are games specifically geared towards banishment of evil, and thus, the Master Sword is needed for that. The Four Sword merely splits the hero to make him more powerful against overwhelming odds, such as fights against powerful sorcerors named Vaati.

C) We don't see the Four Sword in TP because it's not essential to the storyline. Throwing it into the game might have been a fun easter egg, but, in the end, the FS is actually Capcom's baby, and Nintendo probably just didn't give it a second thought when making Hyrule Castle in TP.

D) You could also theorize that we just never see the FS Shrine in TP. Just because you can roam around the castle grounds doesn't mean we can go everywhere. Can you get to Zelda's bedchamber from the Hyrule Castle main entrance? That is a big, fat no. Do we know it exists? Hell yes, because that's where we first meet up with Zelda in the game.

E) It doesn't freakin' matter that the FS isn't in OoT nor TP. Get over it.

WARNING FAN FICTION: The only thing that maybe could have happend in the assumption there is only one Ganon is that he had some sort of back up plan and sealed a part of himself in the four sword instead of dying. FAN FICTION OVER.

I fail to see what this has to do with the current discussion. Besides, when would Ganon have gotten the chance to seal himself in the FS before OoT?

I'm still lost as to where MC blatantly comes out and says that because of MC Link, every other Link wears a hat.

And a thought occurs. Should MC be first, FSS and aLttP could occur on both timelines.

And a thought occurs. Should MC be first, FSS and aLttP could occur on both timelines.

Nope. No game's placement should be as a result of another unconfirmed game's placement.

Every placement in a timeline should be evidenced by post-release director quotations and references to OoT, MM, TP, tWW and PH as these are the only things confirmed as fact.

To place an unconfirmed game, say FSA, on the placement of aLttP, another currently unconfirmed game, is basing a theory upon a theory. Every placement should have strong links to the initial branch itself before it goes about linking to other unconfirmed placements.

Take the log out of your own eye and all that

Originally Posted by River Zora

Because at the end of OoT we SEE Link disappear through time. We then SEE the results of this in tWW's backstory- there is NO HERO so the world falls into despair upon Ganon's return.

There is nothing to indicate that no hero can come between OoT and WW if the main villian isn't Ganon. WW backstory only tells us the events of OoT, Ganon escape, Hero of Time not returning, and them losing hope and praying to the goddess because the Hero of Time didn't showed up.

Ganon isn't specific to it- there is no Hero from the end of OoT to the beginning of tWW because he was not there to carry on the line of heroes as he was in TP.

And how would you know? Does the Hero have to be linked to the Hero of Time? WW negates that as the Hero of Winds has no connection to the Hero of Time. Whats with peoples obsession that all/most Links have to be related through blood?

Originally Posted by ZeldaZealot

There is nothing to indicate that no hero can come between OoT and WW if the main villian isn't Ganon. WW backstory only tells us the events of OoT, Ganon escape, Hero of Time not returning, and them losing hope and praying to the goddess because the Hero of Time didn't showed up.

And how would you know? Does the Hero have to be linked to the Hero of Time? WW negates that as the Hero of Winds has no connection to the Hero of Time. Whats with peoples obsession that all/most Links have to be related through blood?

Okay, I'll prove it.

OoT Link: Disappeared from the adult timeline and never continued his bloodline on that timeline.

ALTTP Link: ALTTP can't go there because the Master Sword will never again be used after ALTTP.

LoZ/AoL Link: Ganon dies at the end of LoZ, so he can't come back for WW.

MC Link: MC places such a huge importance on the cap and its backstory that it can't simply be ignored. It's not "just a cap" in MC's case.

FS/FSA Link: Cannot go between OoT and WW due to the fact that Ganon was sealed in the Evil Realm at the end of OoT and for that reason cannot be the same Ganon from FSA, who begins the game unsealed and without the Triforce.

OoX Link: Ganon is dead at the beginning of OoX, so it cannot take place directly after OoT's adult ending.

Not to mention the fact that Aonuma confirmed on four separate occasions that the order is

-------WW/PH
----- /
OoT
----- \
-------MM--TP

Originally Posted by Link92

Okay, I'll prove it.

Are you for or against ZeldaZealot idea? Because after reading what you post he is wondering why you qouted him.

MC Link: MC places such a huge importance on the cap and its backstory that it can't simply be ignored. It's not "just a cap" in MC's case.

ZeldaZealot agrees with this, but he also never saw a reason for why MC can't come between OoT and WW for the people that don't believe that MC comes first(except for how the Four Sword survive the flood, but then again, it was never stated what happened to it and could have just been carried about until the Vaati in Four Sword/Adventure backstory appeared which could be after the flood... wait... ZeldaZealot thinks he is getting side tracked so he will stopped right now.)