Hero of Men Timeline Placement

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

The original Sages died, yes, but then Link found new Sages to replace them and make another attempt at making the Seal. Those Sages had babies.

That could work. Unfortunately those particular Sages in OoT are a mixed conglomeration of races. In ALttP all the descendants of the Sages are Hylians. In my mind that just doesn't work unless Nintendo just thinks, "It's magic...let it go, and go with the flow."

I said that it started during Link's seven year slumber and finished when Link completed his adventure.

I know what you meant.

It's a war. It's implied that people died.

Granted.

TMC just said that the evil "appeared". That could be from anywhere.

Of course.

He seals some monsters in the Picori Blade to maintain some degree of safety in Hyrule until the Hero of Time comes back to seal off the source of the evil (Sacred Realm).

But you have to remember that there were basically no monsters in the land before the Picori blade was broken in tMC. It's pretty specific about it in-game, making it seem like the equivalent of Pandora's box, from which sprang all evil. It seems that the HoM sealed all the evil threatening the land into the box that the blade was locking.

Also, I'll mention the Light Force of tMC's BS. It's a mystical force that gives the members of the Royal family special powers. In-game, we see that Zelda possesses it. Are we saying that the first Zelda to possess the Light Force was OoT's Zelda? I think not because she already proves to have special powers beyond what the Triforce grants her. I'm thinking of her special powers as a seer, being able to foretell the future. Also, those golden beams of light that she shoots out of her hands to hold Ganon in place at the end of OoT look pretty similar to the same type of powers that tMC's Zelda had. I think the Light Force is still being passed down through the generations, but tMC is just the first game to make mention of it.

That's nice and specific.

Did I list all the possible placements of the Seal War?

Yeah, alright. I wasn't very specific was I? I do still think that it's not part of any game.

1. Before OoT
2. OoT
3. FSA
4. OoT and FSA
5. Pre-OoT and FSA

These are the placements you gave earlier.

1. I think if the SW was before OoT that ALttP would have to be placed before OoT as well as to not overlap sealings upon said realm. ALttP can't come before OoT because OoT is still a land full of Hylians and magical Hylian artifacts and temples whereas ALttP is nearly devoid of the ancient Hylians and all their buildings are ruins and legend and the magical items are ancient treasures.

2. Always a possibility, but I think the differences between OoT and the SW are too strong for them to be one and the same.

3. Miyamoto upended the teatable on this one. Though they still could've given it the SW flavor, I don't think it contains the entire recipe. I'll have to say no on this as well.

4. I do like this theory, and it makes a lot of sense. However, for it to work there needs to be a New Hyrule following the events of WW. Since we have no proof that such a place exists, FSA seems more likely on the CT right now. That automatically severs any connection that FSA might have to OoT.

5. I've already given my reasons as to why I don't think it would work pre-OoT. I think FSA takes place in a time close to ALttP though because of the similarities between them. So FSA, to me, doesn't take place before OoT. Also, I believe that the developer's quote about it being perhaps the earliest game in the chronology has been retconned by the actual release of the game.

When did I ever act high and mighty? I'm still a noob!

It was just the attitude I saw when you posted @ me. I'm married, so I'm trained to pick up on subtle hints. If you truly weren't trying to be like that, then I apologize.

To me, a veteran theorist depends on what forum you're on. Here, a veteran theorist would be someone who has the most experience at theorizing on ZU.

Well, I've been here since September of '08. That has to count for something. I just took a long haitus when my kid was born.

I was just pointing out that he would prefer to be corrected by either one of the people listed in his sig or someone with more experience on these forums (like a mod or something).

And that's unfortunate for him. I still don't like that attitude he's taking of favoritism towards certain theorists and hating on all others he doesn't have on his special little list.

I am in no way attempting favouritism towards myself.

And you're not discouraging it either.

Wow. Graphic and inappropriate. People shouldn't be talking like this, especially since there are kids on these forums.

Think of the children!

LOL! Little kids play Zelda? What? Alright, yeah, I'll tone it down a bit. Watties' head might explode otherwise.

Please refrain from using profane language.

Does it offend you? Or are you afraid it might offend others? Since I have no evidence either way, I see no reason to refrain from it when a particular phrase calls for it.

It means something to other people.

To Watties, right?

As a matter of fact, I did have some good theories earlier. You have no right to say that none of my theories are "compelling" and I doubt you have read all the threads that I have ever created or all the posts I have made. If I had the time, I would post some of my well thought-out theories.

Hmmm...perhaps "compelling" was the wrong word to use there. Anyway, you're right, you have had some pretty decent theories, so I apologize. What truly peeves me is that Watties downplays others' theories because they're not from the theorists on his little list. If you want to make use of your placement on his list then tell him to cut the crap.

If you want to make use of your placement on his list then tell him to cut the crap.

@Watties:
Cut the crap

Love you

Originally Posted by Sparty

That could work. Unfortunately those particular Sages in OoT are a mixed conglomeration of races. In ALttP all the descendants of the Sages are Hylians. In my mind that just doesn't work unless Nintendo just thinks, "It's magic...let it go, and go with the flow."

You're right here.

I know what you meant.

Thank you.

Granted.

Okay.

Of course.

Happy days!

But you have to remember that there were basically no monsters in the land before the Picori blade was broken in tMC. It's pretty specific about it in-game, making it seem like the equivalent of Pandora's box, from which sprang all evil. It seems that the HoM sealed all the evil threatening the land into the box that the blade was locking.

You're right. Just wait for my thread on how the Hero of Men would fit in a pre-OoT Seal War.

Also, I'll mention the Light Force of tMC's BS. It's a mystical force that gives the members of the Royal family special powers. In-game, we see that Zelda possesses it. Are we saying that the first Zelda to possess the Light Force was OoT's Zelda? I think not because she already proves to have special powers beyond what the Triforce grants her. I'm thinking of her special powers as a seer, being able to foretell the future. Also, those golden beams of light that she shoots out of her hands to hold Ganon in place at the end of OoT look pretty similar to the same type of powers that tMC's Zelda had. I think the Light Force is still being passed down through the generations, but tMC is just the first game to make mention of it.

Are you saying that the Hero of Men story would fit best before OoT?

1. I think if the SW was before OoT that ALttP would have to be placed before OoT as well as to not overlap sealings upon said realm. ALttP can't come before OoT because OoT is still a land full of Hylians and magical Hylian artifacts and temples whereas ALttP is nearly devoid of the ancient Hylians and all their buildings are ruins and legend and the magical items are ancient treasures.

There was a seal cast before OoT. That was the Temple of Time and the Master Sword, so there is no overlapping of sealings. This is one of the reasons why ALttP can go on the CT.

2. Always a possibility, but I think the differences between OoT and the SW are too strong for them to be one and the same.

I agree, but try arguing that with someone who has an AT majority timeline.

3. Miyamoto upended the teatable on this one. Though they still could've given it the SW flavor, I don't think it contains the entire recipe. I'll have to say no on this as well.

Miyamoto just made the story of FSA "less complicated". That could mean anything from completely changing the story to just taking out unnecessary/confusing details.

4. I do like this theory, and it makes a lot of sense. However, for it to work there needs to be a New Hyrule following the events of WW. Since we have no proof that such a place exists, FSA seems more likely on the CT right now. That automatically severs any connection that FSA might have to OoT.

I agree. (Please don't use my timeline against me.)

5. I've already given my reasons as to why I don't think it would work pre-OoT. I think FSA takes place in a time close to ALttP though because of the similarities between them. So FSA, to me, doesn't take place before OoT. Also, I believe that the developer's quote about it being perhaps the earliest game in the chronology has been retconned by the actual release of the game.

It could work as:

SW - OoT/MM - TP - FS/FSA - ALttP

The NoA ALttP says that Ganon "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm long after the Seal War. This may not be right though and as such, I would like to see a Japanese translation of that quote in the NoJ ALttP.

It was just the attitude I saw when you posted @ me. I'm married, so I'm trained to pick up on subtle hints. If you truly weren't trying to be like that, then I apologize.

Oh, I see. In that case, I understand (sort of as I'm not married ).

Just so you know, I try to be as nice as possible to everyone unless they are really upsetting me. You don't upset me or make me angry, so I have no reason to act impolite. I'm sorry my attitude isn't very clear. Would it help if I used more smilies?

Well, I've been here since September of '08. That has to count for something. I just took a long haitus when my kid was born.

Of course. You've been here longer than I have, so you probably have some experiences that I would not be able to get anymore. (Some good theorists might have been active in 2008, but are no longer active now.)

And that's unfortunate for him. I still don't like that attitude he's taking of favoritism towards certain theorists and hating on all others he doesn't have on his special little list.

Well, it's his life, so I say let it be.

And you're not discouraging it either.

I don't believe I ever said the words "me", "myself", or "I".

LOL! Little kids play Zelda? What? Alright, yeah, I'll tone it down a bit. Watties' head might explode otherwise.

Does it offend you? Or are you afraid it might offend others? Since I have no evidence either way, I see no reason to refrain from it when a particular phrase calls for it.

Sort of both. Not that it offends me, but I just don't like it and when I see people use profane language, it seems like they are the kind of people that can't take things seriously and because of that, I don't see any reason to take them seriously.

To Watties, right?

To me.

Hmmm...perhaps "compelling" was the wrong word to use there. Anyway, you're right, you have had some pretty decent theories, so I apologize.

Okay. It's all good then.

What truly peeves me is that Watties downplays others' theories because they're not from the theorists on his little list. If you want to make use of your placement on his list then tell him to cut the crap.

All right.


Watties, I am going to ship you a quality knife. Once you receive this knife, take the first piece of crap you can find and cut it into the thinnest slices possible.

Okay, just to clear things up...

You think that The seal war strated with the hero of Men, and then ended after OoT?

Originally Posted by Sparty

That could work. Unfortunately those particular Sages in OoT are a mixed conglomeration of races. In ALttP all the descendants of the Sages are Hylians. In my mind that just doesn't work unless Nintendo just thinks, "It's magic...let it go, and go with the flow."



I know what you meant.



Granted.



Of course.



But you have to remember that there were basically no monsters in the land before the Picori blade was broken in tMC. It's pretty specific about it in-game, making it seem like the equivalent of Pandora's box, from which sprang all evil. It seems that the HoM sealed all the evil threatening the land into the box that the blade was locking.

Also, I'll mention the Light Force of tMC's BS. It's a mystical force that gives the members of the Royal family special powers. In-game, we see that Zelda possesses it. Are we saying that the first Zelda to possess the Light Force was OoT's Zelda? I think not because she already proves to have special powers beyond what the Triforce grants her. I'm thinking of her special powers as a seer, being able to foretell the future. Also, those golden beams of light that she shoots out of her hands to hold Ganon in place at the end of OoT look pretty similar to the same type of powers that tMC's Zelda had. I think the Light Force is still being passed down through the generations, but tMC is just the first game to make mention of it.



Yeah, alright. I wasn't very specific was I? I do still think that it's not part of any game.

1. Before OoT
2. OoT
3. FSA
4. OoT and FSA
5. Pre-OoT and FSA

These are the placements you gave earlier.

1. I think if the SW was before OoT that ALttP would have to be placed before OoT as well as to not overlap sealings upon said realm. ALttP can't come before OoT because OoT is still a land full of Hylians and magical Hylian artifacts and temples whereas ALttP is nearly devoid of the ancient Hylians and all their buildings are ruins and legend and the magical items are ancient treasures.

2. Always a possibility, but I think the differences between OoT and the SW are too strong for them to be one and the same.

3. Miyamoto upended the teatable on this one. Though they still could've given it the SW flavor, I don't think it contains the entire recipe. I'll have to say no on this as well.

4. I do like this theory, and it makes a lot of sense. However, for it to work there needs to be a New Hyrule following the events of WW. Since we have no proof that such a place exists, FSA seems more likely on the CT right now. That automatically severs any connection that FSA might have to OoT.

5. I've already given my reasons as to why I don't think it would work pre-OoT. I think FSA takes place in a time close to ALttP though because of the similarities between them. So FSA, to me, doesn't take place before OoT. Also, I believe that the developer's quote about it being perhaps the earliest game in the chronology has been retconned by the actual release of the game.



It was just the attitude I saw when you posted @ me. I'm married, so I'm trained to pick up on subtle hints. If you truly weren't trying to be like that, then I apologize.



Well, I've been here since September of '08. That has to count for something. I just took a long haitus when my kid was born.



And that's unfortunate for him. I still don't like that attitude he's taking of favoritism towards certain theorists and hating on all others he doesn't have on his special little list.



And you're not discouraging it either.



LOL! Little kids play Zelda? What? Alright, yeah, I'll tone it down a bit. Watties' head might explode otherwise.



Does it offend you? Or are you afraid it might offend others? Since I have no evidence either way, I see no reason to refrain from it when a particular phrase calls for it.



To Watties, right?



Hmmm...perhaps "compelling" was the wrong word to use there. Anyway, you're right, you have had some pretty decent theories, so I apologize. What truly peeves me is that Watties downplays others' theories because they're not from the theorists on his little list. If you want to make use of your placement on his list then tell him to cut the crap.

For a guy who claims to have a PHD, you are the biggest idiot. I don't down play theories unless I don't think they're correct. My time line has changed almost a hundred percent since I came on. You really do have a failure to read.

By the way, it really means nothing to me, in fact, I figure we need to tone it down for you, because you have a hard time following what's going on. You always respond to a post of my own that I made like 6 before the most recent. You have no registration of me changing my mind.


By the way, love you to Zora.

Oh, and as long as the seal war happens before ALttP, it can work. It probably can't be in the games we see, except maybe OoT and FSA (I said maybe, not for sure. Got that Sparty. Oh ♥♥♥♥ it, your gonna skip this part as well).

The fact is we don't have a fixed position on any of the games. If FSA is before ALttP, that's the same as saying it could be OoT and it could be before. Just say the seal war has to be before ALttP sometime, it's that simple.

Originally Posted by MrBaconsock

Okay, just to clear things up...

You think that The seal war strated with the hero of Men, and then ended after OoT?

Yes. According to my theory, the Seal War would have started during OoT Link's seven year slumber with the Hero of Men protecting Hyrule and ended when OoT Link got back and sealed Ganon in the Sacred Realm.

Here's my opinion on it, although that doesn't mean much in the way of fact, it's just my own theory.

Seal War = Interloper War

This is because ALTTP's backstory seems to directly mirror TP's backstory up until the evil flowing from the Sacred Realm. Because the stories had been the same up until that point, I find it natural to say that the Interlopers appearing and the evil flowing from the Sacred Realm are connected. If the stories have been the same up until this point, this is an okay assumption to make, because let's look at the facts.

1.) The Interlopers tried to use the Fused Shadow to conquer the Sacred Realm.

2.) The Fused Shadow, as explained by Lanayru, can corrupt those who use it.

So, due to the above, I think the Interlopers corrupted the Sacred Realm when they tried to conquer it, causing the evil to begin flowing from it. As a response to the Interlopers' crimes, they were chased across Hyrule, held in Arbiter's Grounds, and were sealed away in the Twilight Realm.

While they were being sealed away and the Light Spirits were hiding the Fused Shadow pieces, the Sages and the Knights of Hyrule had to deal with the evil flowing from the Sacred Realm. So most of the Knights of Hyrule were killed, but they bought time for the seal to be cast. And I think:

Sages' seal = Temple of Time + Master Sword,

explaining why they exist during OoT. That's my theory, because I go by the GBA version of ALTTP, seeing as its the more current release and therefore overrides the SNES version in canon. Ganondorf was clearly alive during the Interloper war, as he tells Midna about how her people have "long amused him" and refers to when they defied the goddesses, meaning he knows the history of the Interlopers and has known for a long time. This could have been what led him to begin snooping around Hyrule Castle during the first half of OoT. He knew about the Interlopers and wanted to try it out himself to save his people, the latter of which he tells us about in WW.

However, on the child timeline, Ganondorf never succeeds in his goal of dominating the Sacred Realm. He does, however, due to Link's time traveling, obtain the Triforce of Power, as we see in TP.

Ganon wouldn't make his wish on the Triforce until much later, which I consider to be after FSA, because I believe in the GBA version of ALTTP, the Four Sword is located in the Pyramid of Power, but I could be wrong on that detail.

Watties, stop wasting space. What I mean is, you tend to hit the quote button on someone's post, but then you neglect to touch on any points within the quoted text.

You quoted my entire post, yet you said nothing of it, instead opting to rant against me. Putting all that extra text into your post is just as bad as...GASP...randomly posting.

Cut the crap. I'm sure anybody here has a knife they can lend you for this project that I often suggest. However, the party is B.Y.O.C. (Bring Your Own Crap).

Originally Posted by Watties

For a guy who claims to have a PHD, you are the biggest idiot.

And you are the bigger idiot for putting words in my mouth. Not once have I ever claimed to have a PhD. If you're referring to the Split Timeline forum, I was making a call to all those who had PhDs in Quantum Physics to make the final and accurate call on the whole Split Timeline spiel. If no one could produce their PhD, then we could only ever spout off our own opinions and not established scientific fact and theory.

And you try to dock me for misreading...that's just the pot calling the kettle black. I'm sure that idiom is before your time though.

I don't down play theories unless I don't think they're correct.

If you don't think something is correct, then explain why first instead of saying: OMFG UR an IIIDIOT@@@!!! LERN 2 NOT RANDOMLY POST>>,, GEEZus!!

Exaggeration of the extreme sort was in order for my parody of you.

My time line has changed almost a hundred percent since I came on. You really do have a failure to read.

I never had any beef with your timeline. My only beef is with you. You have a failure to comprehend, apparently. And I already pointed out your own failure to read (locate above text that covers this point).

By the way, it really means nothing to me, in fact, I figure we need to tone it down for you, because you have a hard time following what's going on. You always respond to a post of my own that I made like 6 before the most recent. You have no registration of me changing my mind.

I'm pretty sure that's a horribly incorrect statement. For instance, I'm am totally responding to your latest post on this thread. You have not already posted 6 times before I have responded. Remember...B.Y.O.C.

Stop getting your panties in a twist because I prove to be some pretty feisty opposition to some of your proposed theories. Respond better in defense of yourself and perhaps we can be a bit more civil.

Oh, and as long as the seal war happens before ALttP, it can work. It probably can't be in the games we see, except maybe OoT and FSA (I said maybe, not for sure. Got that Sparty. Oh ♥♥♥♥ it, your gonna skip this part as well).

Wait, this comment about the SW is directed @ me? Why? I agree with you here. Do you want me to write up some crazy rebuttal to something I agree with? ...and why do you think I skip details? Perhaps I leave details out that aren't pertinent to my response. I do so for time constraints. In fact, I'm willing to bet most people here do so as well. I guess my responses just aren't up to Watties' standards. You should make a sticky then and call it "Lissen' up N00bzorz! Dis here is WATTIES' Standerdz! Pay Attenshun and Lern dem!" Maybe then we'll know what Watties likes in our posts and what Watties doesn't, and then we'll post accordingly

The fact is we don't have a fixed position on any of the games. If FSA is before ALttP, that's the same as saying it could be OoT and it could be before. Just say the seal war has to be before ALttP sometime, it's that simple.

Or you could let people theorize how they want. If a person feels the urge to try and place the SW within a specific game and give forth decent reasons as to why it is so, then I say more power to him. You've still got that condescending attitude towards theories that you don't like, Watties, which is the reason I started hating on you so bad. Now...this forum has strict no-flaming policies, but just because I can't troll your ass up and down the forums doesn't mean I have to like you. So fix your attitude or someone's going to fix it for you...and it won't be me because all I can do is make you more angry, and that's not doing enough. Just sayin'.

Oh, and so you don't forget, the party is B.Y.O.C. I'll give you the knife if you really need one.

Originally Posted by Sparty

I'll give you the knife if you really need one.

I thought I already said this. I am the one who "ships" the knives to people who need them.

1) Something called I don't feel like deleting all that crap. You can if you want, your life wasted.

2) You seem to have useless posts all over the place

3) I don't talk like that, and I do explain my self. And on the split on Termina -- true or not, you posted something about PhD's.

4) I do let people theorize, it's you who prevents that. Learn to follow your own advice.

5) Told you agreed on stuff, you seemed to neglect that

6) What time line?

7) ...mmmmmmmm....

ON TOPIC: I like your way of thinking Link92. Your theory shows hope.

Beem, I'm sorry, I don't think the HOM possibly could have been between the 7 years Link slept. There would have been more mention of him, and it would be the HoT who would have been mentioned in MC, not him, as seen in WW. Assuming your going for an AT placement on MC.

Originally Posted by Watties

Beem, I'm sorry, I don't think the HOM possibly could have been between the 7 years Link slept. There would have been more mention of him, and it would be the HoT who would have been mentioned in MC, not him, as seen in WW. Assuming your going for an AT placement on MC.

I know it is obviously wrong, but I can keep defending this theory with good points for as long as possible!

In WW, it says "This is but one of the legends of which the people speak." TMC could simply just tell us another legend. Maybe if it weren't for the Hero of Men, the Hero of Time would have come back to ruins, dead people, and Moblin feces. Does that not make him legendary enough? The Hero of Time would not have been able to succeed without his heroic deeds.

Beem, I'm sorry, I don't think the HOM possibly could have been between the 7 years Link slept. There would have been more mention of him, and it would be the HoT who would have been mentioned in MC, not him, as seen in WW. Assuming your going for an AT placement on MC.

I agree that the HoM probably didn't come up during that seven years that the HoT was on Haitus. If the HoM was present for that time, then I don't think the decline of Hyrule would have happened to the extent that it did. The reason Hyrule was in such a sad state when the HoT woke up was because Ganondorf was allowed to wreak havoc unchecked for all those years. It was the HoT's job to put everything back in order.

Also, if there was a HoM, he would've joined forces with the HoT after he woke up and they would've thwomped Ganny together, doncha think?

Originally Posted by Sparty

Also, if there was a HoM, he would've joined forces with the HoT after he woke up and they would've thwomped Ganny together, doncha think?

I think that beem implies he dies.

Lol beem, knowing somethings wrong but defending it. That's what I do, provides me with max evidence in the other direction, which is why you see me as stubborn Sparty, I'm just trying to get more points.

That was a very clever use of quote though Beem.

Originally Posted by Sparty

If the HoM was present for that time, then I don't think the decline of Hyrule would have happened to the extent that it did.

If the Hero of Men wasn't there, it could've been worse.

Also, if there was a HoM, he would've joined forces with the HoT after he woke up and they would've thwomped Ganny together, doncha think?

That would be awesome.

Anyway, maybe Ganondorf realized what the Hero of Men was doing and decided to kill him.

I dunno, things seemed in pretty bad shape to me - Kakariko Village in flames, the Gorons about to be fed to Volvagia, The Zoras frozen under a thick sheet of ice, Castle Town in ruins...

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

If the Hero of Men wasn't there, it could've been worse.

Things could always be worse. I don't think Hyrule was completely destroyed simply because Ganondorf's desire wasn't to obliterate it, rather he wanted to rule over it. His main desire was to bring the people of Hyrule to revere him as king, and he did just that through fear and tyranny.

That would be awesome.

What would be even cooler is if they made a game based on the HoM. Capcom, get your creative thinking caps back on!

Anyway, maybe Ganondorf realized what the Hero of Men was doing and decided to kill him.

Ganondorf is incapable of killing off Chosen Heroes We know this by experience.

Originally Posted by Sparty

Things could always be worse. I don't think Hyrule was completely destroyed simply because Ganondorf's desire wasn't to obliterate it, rather he wanted to rule over it. His main desire was to bring the people of Hyrule to revere him as king, and he did just that through fear and tyranny.

Good point.

What would be even cooler is if they made a game based on the HoM. Capcom, get your creative thinking caps back on!

I agree.

Ganondorf is incapable of killing off Chosen Heroes We know this by experience.

What makes you think that the Hero of Men was a hero chosen by the Gods?

Originally Posted by Beemnorv

What makes you think that the Hero of Men was a hero chosen by the Gods?

Trend. I have no other reason...so you have me there.

Maybe the Gods only give their chosen heroes nice green hats.

Whoever doesn't have a nice green hat is not a chosen hero.

TMC Link got his nice green hat from Ezlo, so that makes him a fraud.

But... but thats lame

EDIT: And besides, we already know that the HoM was successful in his mission