Sage Advice

Google toolbar translated it for me in terrible Engrish, but still-

Two headings: 'Series' has the fourteen games in it as we would count.

Now the fun part.

'Related Work'

Has Game and Watch Zelda, BSZelda, AST, OoTMQ, Smash Bros, Soul Calibur, Soundtracks, Tingle Games, LCT and Captain Rainbow.

I know Wikipedia isn't trusted developer canon, but it certainly seems public knowledge of AST in Japan is as not being canon.

Originally Posted by River Zora

Google toolbar translated it for me in terrible Engrish, but still-

Two headings: 'Series' has the fourteen games in it as we would count.

Now the fun part.

'Related Work'

Has Game and Watch Zelda, BSZelda, AST, OoTMQ, Smash Bros, Soul Calibur, Soundtracks, Tingle Games, LCT and Captain Rainbow.

I know Wikipedia isn't trusted developer canon, but it certainly seems public knowledge of AST in Japan is as not being canon.

Well while that is still not absolute it still gives us a good idea what japan seems to consider canonical.
Seems like we can say bye bye to the games listed in the "related work" section.
I just wish we had an offical source to make it clear once and for all.
I don't care much about what is canon and what's not, i would just like to know for sure once and for all. :p

But, howly cow! They have the CD-i games in the section of the "regular" games. D:

I know! That caused much hilarity when I read it!

The Japanese public considers the CD-i games to be more worth of main series than AST

lol, The Story of Diesel XD

It's because the CD-i games actually work quite well as sequels to LoZ/AoL, not breaking any timeline continuities nor straying from the characters established in the Zelda Cartoons and comics. Their lackluster quality is what drive people away from even considering them for their timelines. Honestly it doesnt' really matter whether or not they go on the timeline because they don't ruin anything chronologically. AST does indeed pose a problem. First of all, it's considered a sequel to ALttP, but it employs the use of the Master Sword, which is supposed to be sleeping forever. Also the protagonist comes from OUR world, something that has never occurred in any other Zelda game. It seems very farfetched and also quite ridiculous, even in a fantasy world such as Hyrule. For these reasons I believe it isn't considered Canon. Another thing of note was that it wasn't published as widely as the mainstream games either.

The Japanese public considers the CD-i games to be more worth of main series than AST

If that's the case then your point is completely moot.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

The faint moving seems to be part of the constant "wobbly" animation that is used for the fairies in PH.

"wobbly"?

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Dunno about that. Possible that he was described as appearing suddend.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Manual Translation

The King of Hyrule was greatly troubled, and had the seal studied, but found nothing. The people had nothing else to do but pray to the gods.

Then, like a comet, a man named Agahnim appeared, and ended the catastrophes with a curious magic.

The people heralded him as a hero; the King proclaimed him to be the second coming of the seven sages, appointed him priest, and invited him to the castle.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Manual Translation Translators' Notes

He appeared like "a comet" probably means that he showed up in Hyrule very quickly. It might also be an allusion to Agahnim appearing to descend from heaven in answer to the people's prayers.

It looks like Agahnim was a stranger who seemingly came out of nowhere, "saved" Hyrule, and was then made a priest.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Well first of an interesting point would be if Ganon is indeed empowered by the whole triforce.

Back in 1993, Ganon's backstory was that he was basically just a bum who touched the Triforce and gained incredible power from it. Since Ganon wished to rule the world instead of wishing for said power, he appears to have been empowered by the Triforce simply because he owned it.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Secondly I never heard about a bunshin that equals the strength of it's source.

A bunshin's basically half of a person, so if the person was freakishly powerful then the halves of said person could also be freakishly powerful.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

What does Zelda have to do with that now?

The only person Ganondorf possessed in TP was Zelda. In the Zant scenario Ganondorf just gave a chunk of his power away and Zant willingly did Ganondorf's bidding.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

What I'm proposing in this scenario is that Ganon had need of powers that were inherent to the original Aghanim. Such as sending things to the darkworld.

Why would a normal priest know how to do that? Also, as I said earlier, Ganondorf didn't possess Zelda to gain power and Zant wasn't possessed at all.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Yes the tower was if I recall correctly, don't know about Hyrule castle though.

There were some pillars in the throne room.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Only three little hylian girls seems plausible to me. There weren't all that much little girls anyway in WW anyway.

Storywise, though, there were probably more little girls (and people in general) on the Great Sea than the ones we saw wandering the islands. Since Ganondorf only managed to capture three girls despite having a bunch of time, it would seem that he wasn't picking his targets based on age.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

You are grasping at straws here. There are several humans with pointy ears on the great sea.

As I said before, the art style might not be good at representing how the ears themselves have declined. In both OoT and TP, Ganondorf's pointed ears are smaller and duller than the ears of the Hylians. Judging from the time between the flood and TWW, Ganondorf's standards for finding potential Zeldas, and Hylian blood's natural tendency to decline, Hylian blood appears to have declined greatly across the Great Sea.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Knowledge of Hyrule is a completly different topic

It's another example of the past and basically everything from the old world being forgotten and fading away.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

"wobbly"?

Yeah...I don't have a better word for it. The fairies constantly "wobble", even if they don't "move" at all. Maybe "pulsating" decribes it better?

It looks like Agahnim was a stranger who seemingly came out of nowhere, "saved" Hyrule, and was then made a priest.

Seems like he did appear suddend.

Back in 1993, Ganon's backstory was that he was basically just a bum who touched the Triforce and gained incredible power from it. Since Ganon wished to rule the world instead of wishing for said power, he appears to have been empowered by the Triforce simply because he owned it.

Was it made clear that he had no powers before, and was just a bum? I think that's left unadressed.

A bunshin's basically half of a person, so if the person was freakishly powerful then the halves of said person could also be freakishly powerful.

The bunshins we are talking about right now at least seem to be that.
But forst of we don't know if we talking about 50%-50% halves here, Ganon could have only split a small part of his soul.
And in a case of a 50-50 split it would make sense that each half is only 50% "freakishly powerfull".
Additionally, Ciela loses her powers and does not even regain them instantly and completly after being united.

The only person Ganondorf possessed in TP was Zelda. In the Zant scenario Ganondorf just gave a chunk of his power away and Zant willingly did Ganondorf's bidding.

I don't remember saying that Ganondrorf possesed Zant, I simply said he had need of his powers/position.

Why would a normal priest know how to do that? Also, as I said earlier, Ganondorf didn't possess Zelda to gain power and Zant wasn't possessed at all.

No, could you finally STOP twisting what I said? I'm sick of it and it makes me ose respect towards your person. Neither did I claim that Zant was possesed, nor did I say Ganondorf possesed Zelda for power. He possesed her for strategic reasons.

As for why a priest should know how to do that, I just had an idea but I would have to know what japanese word for "priest" they use for Aghanim.

There were some pillars in the throne room.

Okay. Not all pillars are roman/greek though, but it doesn't matter. I'm sure ALttP does feature greek/roman influences. But only very few compared to TP.

Storywise, though, there were probably more little girls (and people in general) on the Great Sea than the ones we saw wandering the islands. Since Ganondorf only managed to capture three girls despite having a bunch of time, it would seem that he wasn't picking his targets based on age.

"Storywise" is a nice word for, "In my opinion about things we never see in game".
I'm actually wondering now, "a bunch of time"? I was sure that Ganondorf's appearance on the great sea was a more recent development.

As I said before, the art style might not be good at representing how the ears themselves have declined. In both OoT and TP, Ganondorf's pointed ears are smaller and duller than the ears of the Hylians. Judging from the time between the flood and TWW, Ganondorf's standards for finding potential Zeldas, and Hylian blood's natural tendency to decline, Hylian blood appears to have declined greatly across the Great Sea.

That's just a bunch of strange assumptions to ignore that there are long eared people. We have never been shown any "degenerated Hylian ears" nor have we been told that such a thing exists.

It's another example of the past and basically everything from the old world being forgotten and fading away.

Then is a weak one though, at least if it was supposed to back up your argument against Hylian blodd on the great sea. knowledge does have absolutly nothing to do with genetics. A Hylian hit over the head and having amnesia would still be a Hylian and pass on those genes.

I'm very tired right now and about to go to sleep, so I'll probably edit this in a few hours.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Seems like he did appear suddend.

While the manual did say that Agahnim appeared suddenly, it also said that he was only made into a priest after "saving" Hyrule. Ganon apparently didn't possess anyone with a trustworthy reputation as you suggested earlier.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Was it made clear that he had no powers before, and was just a bum?

He was just called an evil thief, and in the manual his claiming of the Triforce seems to contrast the main searches for it, which were suggested to have been more along the lines of political struggles between powerful figures such as princes and the like.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Manual Translation

The people, seeking the Golden Power, began searching for the Sacred Realm.

Many reports began to surface; lying beneath the relics of the desert, inside the graves of the race of people in the high mountains, but no one ever found it.

Longing soon became greed, and it was not uncommon for blood to be spilt for certain information.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Manual Translation Translators' Notes

The Japanese version makes it sound more like political intrigue than bloody combat.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Manual Translation

That is, until one day, completely by chance, the entrance to the Sacred Realm was opened by by a certain group of thieves.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Manual Translation Translators' Notes

Japanese version doesn't say the thieves are skilled in the black arts.

Guuzen = chance, unexpectedly, suddenly, accident, fortuity

Originally Posted by bitterlime

But forst of we don't know if we talking about 50%-50% halves here, Ganon could have only split a small part of his soul.

Possibly, but seeing as how Ganon apparently used his own power instead of someone else's might for the Agahnim plan and since Agahnim is even conventionally invulnerable, it would appear that each part of Ganon had a sizable amount of his soul, based off of the united Ganon not being freakishly superior or anything.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Additionally, Ciela loses her powers and does not even regain them instantly and completly after being united.

Ganon, however, doesn't appear to have any problem when it comes to his reformation. It doesn't really matter though.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I don't remember saying that Ganondrorf possesed Zant, I simply said he had need of his powers/position.

You brought up the idea of Ganondorf possessing someone to use a power that only they would arguably have. I was just pointing out how that doesn't appear to be Ganon's style. Also, regarding strategic reasons in ALttP, the manual appears to suggest that Agahnim was a nobody until he "saved" Hyrule, at which point the king appointed him as a priest.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

As for why a priest should know how to do that, I just had an idea but I would have to know what japanese word for "priest" they use for Aghanim.

I've heard that it's along the lines of ritual master. That doesn't seem to matter though, since the manual suggests that he was made into a priest only after he ended all of the troubles plaguing Hyrule.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I'm sure ALttP does feature greek/roman influences. But only very few compared to TP.

Do you have any examples of Greek influences in TP other than the ones you mentioned earlier?

Originally Posted by bitterlime

"Storywise" is a nice word for, "In my opinion about things we never see in game".

It'd be absurd to assume that, for example, Hyrule only had a population of a hundred or so people in each game. Saying "storywise" just accounts for things that we know are there but just don't see, such as the island Mila goes to work on every night after the vault incident in TWW.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I'm actually wondering now, "a bunch of time"? I was sure that Ganondorf's appearance on the great sea was a more recent development.

The Helmaroc King could cross the entire Great Sea, yet even after Link assembled the pearls, climbed the Tower of the Gods, and claimed the Master Sword, the Helmaroc King had only managed to kidnap three people.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

We have never been shown any "degenerated Hylian ears" nor have we been told that such a thing exists.

Hylian blood has been stated to decline over time; if the bloodline of the Hylians declines, then the traits exclusive to Hylians should also reasonably decline.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Then is a weak one though, at least if it was supposed to back up your argument against Hylian blodd on the great sea.

The Wind Waker is a story about letting go of the past and moving on; the old world is becoming forgotten and irrelevant. Even physical things are changing, as shown by the Zora becoming the Rito and the Kokiri becoming the Koroks. With the game being about the past fading away coupled with Hylian blood having a tendency to decline, it's a stretch to say that Hylian blood would truly exist on the Great Sea in significant amounts.

I'll jump in here and mention that Ganondorf was not just a bum who happened to touch the Triforce in the ALttP BS. It's mentioned that he was a great thief of some renown and even had his own gang that followed under him. When he and a group of his people found their way into the Sacred Realm and beheld the Triforce he singlehandedly slew every single one of his men so that he could ensure for himself a chance to touch the Triforce and make his wish.

What we see is no mere bum. He is a leader, a cunning thief, and either a powerful sorcerer or swordsman or both to be able to slay so many by himself. Not only that, but he's inherently evil, a reason he was able to dispatch his very own men.

My question here is...was this Ganondorf's heart balanced? Obviously the Triforce split in OoT after he touched it and he gained only the ToP, but why did this not seem to occur in the ALttP BS? Three conclusions come to mind.

One: the Triforce did split, but after some time and during his warring against Hyrule in the Light World, he somehow gained back the other two pieces and stowed them away in the Pyramid of Power.

Two: the Triforce didn't split because this Ganondorf's heart, though evil, was in balance and he could keep all three pieces in harmony despite his wicked ambitions.

Three: the Triforce didn't split because all he did was make a wish upon touching it, never once claiming the Golden Power as his own and leaving it there in the Pyramid of Power heavily guarded from intruders who wished to touch it as well.

If this were the original G-dorf from OoT's era, then I would like to go with option number one, for it gives him much time between the actual touching of it and finally being sealed with the entire Triforce in the Dark World. If this is actually a different Ganondorf from the one introduced in OoT, then I'd say we should go with Option 3. The wish would have given Ganondorf enough power to back his wish without actually becoming a tool for him as the ToP is for him in other games. The Triforce instead is more of a treasure for him in ALttP, being kept in a hidden chamber within the Pyramid of Power.

What's worthy of note is that even though the Triforce granted Ganondorf's wish, there was enough force opposing him from making his wish of conquering the Light World a reality that it just couldn't happen for him overnight. It seems that the Triforce gave Ganon the means to rule the world, both Light and Dark, but couldn't automatically make it so. Interesting little tidbit, wouldn't you say?

Originally Posted by Sparty

I'll jump in here and mention that Ganondorf was not just a bum who happened to touch the Triforce in the ALttP BS. It's mentioned that he was a great thief of some renown and even had his own gang that followed under him.

He's merely called an evil thief, which could just mean that he was particularly brutal and nothing else. Also, no offense, but I doubt that it'd be that hard to have a gang; people in our world do it all the time, and they're typically far from being prominent or influential.

Originally Posted by Sparty

What we see is no mere bum. He is a leader,

Again, it doesn't seem that hard to have a gang.

Originally Posted by Sparty

a cunning thief,

The whole "slaughtering his followers" thing sounds more like his greed being expressed rather than his cunning.

Originally Posted by Sparty

and either a powerful sorcerer or swordsman or both to be able to slay so many by himself.

Actually, the Japanese text says that every thief in the gang wanted the Triforce for themselves and they all began killing each other. Ganon was just the last man standing.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Manual Translation

The group began to push aside one another, changing the color of their eyes, and tried to pressed forward.

After the bloody confrontation among comrades had ended, the victor was the leader of the group.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Manual Translation Translators' Notes

The changing eye color thing is a phrase that shows the way they became frenzied. It's probably not meant to be literal. However, in some anime, a character's eye color will change when they become extremely angry (the eyes will glow, or in Kenshin's case, his eyes go from blue to yellow).

As for being evil, that's not exactly a feat of power. He could just be a douchebag.

Originally Posted by Sparty

The Triforce instead is more of a treasure for him in ALttP, being kept in a hidden chamber within the Pyramid of Power.

While it is secured within the pyramid, it could just be there because its natural dwelling place is in the Sacred Realm. Also, the Triforce basically acknowledges Ganon as its previous master in the ending (previous because Link has just killed him).

Originally Posted by Sparty

What's worthy of note is that even though the Triforce granted Ganondorf's wish, there was enough force opposing him from making his wish of conquering the Light World a reality that it just couldn't happen for him overnight. It seems that the Triforce gave Ganon the means to rule the world, both Light and Dark, but couldn't automatically make it so. Interesting little tidbit, wouldn't you say?

It's probably because Ganon lacked the "certain values" mentioned in the scroll from AoL. In fact, when the ALttP manual speaks of the Master Sword, it says that the blade was made in case of an evil kidnapping of the Triforce.

Originally Posted by Zelda Legends ALttP Manual Translation

However, it could not be assumed that only a good person would get their hands on the Triforce.

For that reason, the people of Hyrule were told by the gods to make something that would repulse any evil that may kidnap the Triforce: the blade of evil's bane.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

He was just called an evil thief, and in the manual his claiming of the Triforce seems to contrast the main searches for it, which were suggested to have been more along the lines of political struggles between powerful figures such as princes and the like.

I'm not claiming to know it better than the fan translators, but it doesn't sound "political" to me.
We see several dark world inhabitants that were originally light dwellers, non of them alude to having been influencial or involved in "political struggels".

You brought up the idea of Ganondorf possessing someone to use a power that only they would arguably have. I was just pointing out how that doesn't appear to be Ganon's style. Also, regarding strategic reasons in ALttP, the manual appears to suggest that Agahnim was a nobody until he "saved" Hyrule, at which point the king appointed him as a priest.

TP shoes us that Ganon(dorf) doesn't mind possesion if it's to his advance. It's not like he was in dire need of Zelds body. (sounds wrong)
Anyway this argument isn't really helping either of us since the portrayals of Ganon(dorfs) chracters have changed drasticly from game to game.

I've heard that it's along the lines of ritual master. That doesn't seem to matter though, since the manual suggests that he was made into a priest only after he ended all of the troubles plaguing Hyrule.

It would still be interesting to know the exact japanese word. Because it coud exlain both his powers as well as "being made a priest". (Some words for "priest" typically imply serving under a royal, unless I'm mistaken).

Do you have any examples of Greek influences in TP other than the ones you mentioned earlier?

Not from the top of my head. Wait...the story of the guy that turned into gold and got his soul stolen by the poes seems to be based on Midas.
I'm relatviley sure there are more things, but I'm not going to play the whole game again now. The things mentioned before should be enough already to show that TP has a stronger greek/roman influence than the other games.

It'd be absurd to assume that, for example, Hyrule only had a population of a hundred or so people in each game. Saying "storywise" just accounts for things that we know are there but just don't see, such as the island Mila goes to work on every night after the vault incident in TWW.

The difference being that we KNOW that Mila goes on an unseen island to work (unless she's really somewhere, never bothered to look for her at night).
The thing about there being pointy ears that are "not hylian enough" is something you assume though.
We lso don't know how much more people there are on the great sea.

The Helmaroc King could cross the entire Great Sea, yet even after Link assembled the pearls, climbed the Tower of the Gods, and claimed the Master Sword, the Helmaroc King had only managed to kidnap three people.

2 of the girls were from the great seas "metropolis", the third girl was from the second largest hylian/human island. The bird is going to have a hard job from now on.

Hylian blood has been stated to decline over time; if the bloodline of the Hylians declines, then the traits exclusive to Hylians should also reasonably decline.

Nothing suggests that Hylian blood is prone to declining. Just because it happened before ALttP for some reason that doesn#t mean that Hylian blood in general is weak or prone to declining.

The Wind Waker is a story about letting go of the past and moving on; the old world is becoming forgotten and irrelevant. Even physical things are changing, as shown by the Zora becoming the Rito and the Kokiri becoming the Koroks. With the game being about the past fading away coupled with Hylian blood having a tendency to decline, it's a stretch to say that Hylian blood would truly exist on the Great Sea in significant amounts.

No it's not a stretch if the frikken game shows more than enough long eared persons. I always liked you for your attempts at being unbiased and factual, I'm disapointed to be honest.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

I'm not claiming to know it better than the fan translators, but it doesn't sound "political" to me.

It had something to do with the Japanese word that was used. I could post their raw translation, but I don't know if you have an online translator to check, and online translators typically suck anyway.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

We see several dark world inhabitants that were originally light dwellers, non of them alude to having been influencial or involved in "political struggels".

Even with the political struggles, some random people still went off to search for the Triforce. Also, the Flute Kid and the monsters that mention the "Ordinary Guy" outside of the Desert of Mystery have only recently entered the Dark World.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

TP shoes us that Ganon(dorf) doesn't mind possesion if it's to his advance.

Yet he chose not to possess Zant even though Zant had powers that Ganondorf was in need of.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Not from the top of my head. Wait...the story of the guy that turned into gold and got his soul stolen by the poes seems to be based on Midas.

That's a bit of a stretch, seeing as how Midas' tale involved everything he touched turning into gold.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

The things mentioned before should be enough already to show that TP has a stronger greek/roman influence than the other games.

I'm not really seeing one, at least not in comparison to the other games.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

The difference being that we KNOW that Mila goes on an unseen island to work (unless she's really somewhere, never bothered to look for her at night).

It's still a massive assumption to believe that the entire populace of the land is truly meant to be represented by the few NPCs that we encounter in the game. In fact, in OoT's ending, there are three to four clusters of people instead of the two clusters that were found in Castle Town, proving that there were more people in the story than were encountered during the gameplay.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

The thing about there being pointy ears that are "not hylian enough" is something you assume though.

Again, if a bloodline declines, then the traits of that bloodline would also reasonably decline.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

2 of the girls were from the great seas "metropolis", the third girl was from the second largest hylian/human island. The bird is going to have a hard job from now on.

Again, I sincerely doubt that there were only three little girls on the entire Great Sea. Mila's statement about working on another island at night (that we never find) also suggests that there were more populated islands on the Great Sea than Outset and Windfall. If Ganondorf only wanted little girls, the Helmaroc King should have reasonably been more successful.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

Nothing suggests that Hylian blood is prone to declining.

A Link to the Past. Also, I recall the LoZ Manual stating that pointed ears were rare, though I have to check to be sure.

Originally Posted by bitterlime

No it's not a stretch if the frikken game shows more than enough long eared persons.

Again, considering that TWW was about moving on, Hylian blood seems to have a tendency to decline, and other physical things from the past had changed, Hylian blood basically fading away by TWW sounds plausible. Also, this quote:

Originally Posted by Quill (Japanese Translation of The Wind Waker)

Now, listen! To deliver letters for my job, I go to many islands….. Haven’t you been hearing about girls being kidnapped in various places? Every single one of the girls who were kidnapped had long ears like you. Also, if I’m not mistaken, the girl who was just kidnapped had long ears, right…? That’s why that bird mistook that girl for you and kidnapped her!

specifically points out the importance of the pointed ears, suggesting that there was some sort of difference between the ears of the kidnapped girls and the common pointed ears.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

It had something to do with the Japanese word that was used. I could post their raw translation, but I don't know if you have an online translator to check, and online translators typically suck anyway.

I have people, online translators (1 I find to be fairly okay compared to the regular sucky ones) and know a wee bit japanese too.

Even with the political struggles, some random people still went off to search for the Triforce. Also, the Flute Kid and the monsters that mention the "Ordinary Guy" outside of the Desert of Mystery have only recently entered the Dark World.

Which is what I was saying, you said "Ganon was put in contrast to the people in search of the Sacred Realm". Which we just apparently agreed on to be not the case.

Yet he chose not to possess Zant even though Zant had powers that Ganondorf was in need of.

Zant is easiely manipulated, no need to posses him. Thinking about it Ganondorf did talk about "housing his powers" in Zant. And Zant did go through some odd changes. I personally don't believe he was possesed, but on the other hand the game leaves room for that.

I'm not really seeing one, at least not in comparison to the other games.

I am seeing one, but never mind that if you don't see it.

It's still a massive assumption to believe that the entire populace of the land is truly meant to be represented by the few NPCs that we encounter in the game.

I'm starting to be amazed on how people can take you serious...this must be at least the 5th time were you try to make it look like I claimed things I simply never said. I said we don't know how big the populatio of the great sea is supposed to be. Are you completly blind to neutral opinions and stances? Are you really unable to see that I am just stating a neutral fact here and is that because you just assume that just because I don't agree with you directly have the oposite opinion?

Again, if a bloodline declines, then the traits of that bloodline would also reasonably decline.

IF the blood line declined in WW already, but it has not yet apparently. It's clearly not the case as wee see in the game.
The blood line was only said to have declined in ALttP. For reasons we do not know.

Again, I sincerely doubt that there were only three little girls on the entire Great Sea.

Sorry, either you are willingy trying to alter my statements to make it easier for you to counter them or you are simply not capable of listening/reading properly.
I never said there were only 3 little girls on the great sea. In fact we both know that that's wrong since there are another 2 girls (with round ears I think, at least one of them) at windfall. The two that inform Link about gossip.

Mila's statement about working on another island at night (that we never find) also suggests that there were more populated islands on the Great Sea than Outset and Windfall. If Ganondorf only wanted little girls, the Helmaroc King should have reasonably been more successful.

Well now you really outdid yourself.
Let's see, what's harder...finding female red heads? Or finding female red heads around the age of 10?
What's harder? Finding female Hylians? Or finding female Hylians around the age of 10?
Furthermore Mila's statement does not suggest that there were more populated islands as there are several islands where a person works all alone. (e.g. the bomb mini game on spectacle island)

A Link to the Past. Also, I recall the LoZ Manual stating that pointed ears were rare, though I have to check to be sure.

Yes, just because 1 game mentions that the blood of the Hylians declined that does not equal the blood of the Hylians being weaker than any other blood or prone to declining.

Again, considering that TWW was about moving on, Hylian blood seems to have a tendency to decline, and other physical things from the past had changed, Hylian blood basically fading away by TWW sounds plausible. Also, this quote:
specifically points out the importance of the pointed ears, suggesting that there was some sort of difference between the ears of the kidnapped girls and the common pointed ears.

No...just no. You now reached the point where you willingly missinterpretate in game quotes. The mailman is obviously talking about the difference between pointed and ROUND ears.
Also it's curious how he states that girls were kidnapped from several islands...but all we find in the forsaken fortress are 2 girls from Windfall. I wonder if that was a mess up or if we are to assume that there were other girls...that were discarded/returned after Ganondorf found out that they were not carrying the Triforce of Wisdom.

And also note how it's GIRLS (I love everyone who get's the reference) that are kidnapped...not women, not females. The bird kidnappes girls.

Originally Posted by Average Gamer

He's merely called an evil thief, which could just mean that he was particularly brutal and nothing else. Also, no offense, but I doubt that it'd be that hard to have a gang; people in our world do it all the time, and they're typically far from being prominent or influential.

You're downplaying Ganondorf's importance quite a bit here. Merely an Evil Thief. There are all kinds of theives, though we could quite honestly say his entire gang was evil, so that's not a winning point. However, the fact that he has a gang does show that he's somewhat more than the ordinary bum, wouldn't you agree? No, you probably don't agree, but then I don't suppose you know much first hand about gangs and groups and how respected a person has to be to become a leader in the first place, do you?

Again, it doesn't seem that hard to have a gang.

If it's not that hard, then go get yourself a following of people. See for yourself how hard it is to come up with an ideal and have people follow you. You'll probably give me some bull**** excuse as to how easy it is...but seriously, I'm telling you to put yourself in the shoes of a leader. If you're mediocre, then your group will fall apart. If you're influential and respectable and really go out of your way to promote your ideals, then you'll probably be a success. Any leader knows this, and those people are never merely bums, despite what you may think. Is calling a Ganondorf a bum just your way of arguing with every little point that people throw out there? You seem to get very caught up in little things when debating.

The whole "slaughtering his followers" thing sounds more like his greed being expressed rather than his cunning.

Actually, the Japanese text says that every thief in the gang wanted the Triforce for themselves and they all began killing each other. Ganon was just the last man standing.

I'm not going to deny his greed, nor the greed of his followers, but wouldn't it seem odd for a mere bum to be the last man standing? You've been trying to put Ganondorf on a lower level, trying to show that he's equal to his gang members. You seem to forget that the leader in this kind of situation is more often than not the strongest, the smartest, and the most cunning of the bunch. The fact that he was able to win out in a battle royale between him and his comrades is therefore no surprise.

As for being evil, that's not exactly a feat of power. He could just be a douchebag.

Yes, arguably he and all his men were evil douchebags. Sigh. I'm sure he was the most evil of the bunch, or if he wasn't then he definitely had the potential for it.

While it is secured within the pyramid, it could just be there because its natural dwelling place is in the Sacred Realm. Also, the Triforce basically acknowledges Ganon as its previous master in the ending (previous because Link has just killed him).

Good point.

It's probably because Ganon lacked the "certain values" mentioned in the scroll from AoL. In fact, when the ALttP manual speaks of the Master Sword, it says that the blade was made in case of an evil kidnapping of the Triforce.

Alright, then why do you think Ganon was able to possess the entire Triforce? Do you believe it split at first and then he went about to kidnap the rest of the pieces during his warring with Hyrule? Seems like the only logical explanation unless this Ganondorf's heart was in-balance from the moment he touched the Sacred Relic. What say you?

I always assumed the Triforce would only split the FIRST time someone touched it/possessed part of it.

Like Ganon touched it once and it split, so next time it's fine. Of course this only works if it's the same Ganon.

In Daphnes' case- he had Wisdom at least for some point, so he was able to touch the whole Force as well and make a wish without worry of another split. I doubt even Daphnes' heart is fully in balance.

I always though that, after the Triforce is split, and then reunited, anyone who touches it can use it, no matter who they are, or if they are in balance (generally one of the crest holders would be the one to touch it, as they will be at the same place as the Triforce, but nothing stops a random person, *cough*Daphnes*cough*, to appear out of nowhere and touch it) ...

Originally Posted by ahaha

I always though that, after the Triforce is split, and then reunited, anyone who touches it can use it, no matter who they are

Yeah, I'm agreeing here. Why else would OoT Ganondorf try to reasamble the Triforce in both OoT and WW?
On the other hand he could have worked on the balance of his heart (if such a thing is possible) to be prepared next time.

Again, I say that one has to have either touched it before or owned a piece for it not to split if your heart's not in balance.

Otherwise it's hardly a protocol 'yeah, we'll stop the first evil person getting their hands on it- any later guys- go ahead!

Originally Posted by River Zora

Again, I say that one has to have either touched it before or owned a piece for it not to split if your heart's not in balance.

Otherwise it's hardly a protocol 'yeah, we'll stop the first evil person getting their hands on it- any later guys- go ahead!

It's clearly not about good and evil...it's about balance of the three virtues.