AoL line

By the same reasoning (the idea that Link is the first person to wield the Triforce since the Great King)
can't we conclude that the Great King (Zelda's father) also wrote the scroll? The scroll writer must
have had access to the whole Triforce, since he says:

There are three kinds of Triforce - Power, Wisdom, and Courage...Of the three, I have left Power and Wisdom in the kingdom. But the Triforce of Courage I have hidden for a reason.

We know the Great King was Zelda's father:

It is said that long ago, when Hyrule was one country, a great ruler maintained the peace in Hyrule using the Triforce. However, the king too was a child of man and he died. Then, the prince of the kingdom should have become king and inherited everything, but he could inherit the Triforce only in part. The Prince searched everywhere for the missing parts, but could not find them. Then, a magician close to the king brought him some unexpected news. Before he died, the king had said something about the Triforce to only the younger sister of the prince, Princess Zelda.

Left isn't necessarily taken as such, no.

I could have left my car at the car park but taken the keys with me- in which case this works and you are correct.

I left my friends and their cars at the car park but took my car with me, more suited to the Triforce comment, does not imply that the speaker himself was ever in possession of his friends of their cars, merely knowledgable of their position wherever he 'left' them.

It's ambiguous and open to interpretation.

So, you think the Triforce was all in Hyrule after the King died, but later on, someone learned
that it could be misused and hid the ToC?

I would like to know where you think the Triforce part(s) the Prince couldn't get were
if the part(s) in question weren't the ToC hidden in the Great Palace.

I believe the 'only able to inherit it in part' is a sign of the concept of the Triforce splitting- The Prince and/or Wizard would have got Power as is the norm for those seeking it for its glory alone.

Zelda got Wisdom, the Prince and Wizard knew she knew something about the nature/whereabouts of the Triforce- I take this as she had it- also why she survived and the Wizard's spell backfired.

Presumably one of the Knights of Hyrule got Courage. This is all in the pre-OoT events. After this the Triforce is locked in the Sacred Realm as it is too dangerous in Hyrule for it. It is reformed by the Ancient Sages upon the Wizard's and the Knights' death and Zelda's coma and sealed with Master Sword and stones.

Many many years later and many games later we know Hyrule has knowledge of Power and Wisdom with things referring to 'both Triforces'. These are 'left in the kingdom' by the scroll writer who had hidden the third for the next great King- the first to rule with the Triforce since pre-OoT.

This is all in my Theory-fic

I like it

RZ, the manual says the King hid the Triforce of Courage before his death. The Triforce was already divided before the King died, and thus, the "inherit it in part" can't be a split.

RZ, the manual says the King hid the Triforce of Courage before his death. The Triforce was already divided before the King died, and thus, the "inherit it in part" can't be a split.

It doesn't say that- it says he said something about the Triforce to Zelda before he died- it never says he hid it or manually split it himself. It could be 'hey- your brother doesn't seem to be all that pure- if the TF splits you'll probably get Wisdom.' or even something silly and trivial about it.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

By the same reasoning (the idea that Link is the first person to wield the Triforce since the Great King)
can't we conclude that the Great King (Zelda's father) also wrote the scroll?

Not necessarily; there are many options for who the "Great King" and "scroll writer" could have been.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

So, you think the Triforce was all in Hyrule after the King died, but later on, someone learned that it could be misused and hid the ToC?

I think something similar to this:

The OoT king had the divine blessing of the Triforce and used that guidance to unite the kingdom of Hyrule, but he died sometime during OoT and his son (Daphnes) could not inherit the full Triforce because it had split.

Due to the flood the world entered a state of decline, and Daphnes awaited the appearance of a hero to defeat Ganondorf and restore the Triforce to good hands. He then hid it away until the time that a new great king would come to lead the people to prevent its misuse in the interim, and cast a spell to mark the one who should receive the keys to recover the Triforce of Courage.

Originally Posted by Erimgard

RZ, the manual says the King hid the Triforce of Courage before his death.

The manual says the scroll-writer king hid the Triforce of Courage before his death.

If you believe as I do, it is nigh impossible for the scroll-writer king to be the great-king father of the original Zelda.

Again, I'm certain in my manual (and a scan I've found online) it makes no indication any King wrote the scroll, Zelda's father or otherwise... Am I missing something really obvious?

Again, I'm certain in my manual (and a scan I've found online) it makes no indication any King wrote the scroll, Zelda's father or otherwise... Am I missing something really obvious?

I think it makes hints with the Armos statues, but I'm not sure. Hold on I think I have a PM about that somewhere. I'll see if I can't dig it up.

Here we are:

I believe that the scroll writer was the Great King, leaving instructions behind for whoever would be worthy enough to properly succeed him. The AoL manual also says that the Iron Knuckles were placed in the Palaces by the Great King, showing that he was the scroll writer.

That's part of a PM from Average Gamer where he and I were dicussing the possibility of AOLBS being pre OoT.

Oh- that?
That's what people are arguing with?
"The enemies in the palace are those that were made and chosen by the King."

There's nothing in that. Actually nothing.

1) This refers specifically to the first Palace.
2)So what if the King created these enemies- how does that link him to the scroll writer? Because:
3)The Scroll Writer was only said to have set the Great Barrier on the Great Palace- no other guardian or barrier is said to be of his doing.
4)It says the Scroll Writer made use of these labyrinths, but no reason they couldn't already have been there by a King- Ganon used the twisty corridors and puzzles of the Earth Temple to prevent the Hero fixing the MS, but it was already there previously for less sinister reasons. Palace/Dungeon/Temple purposes can be altered. The Temples in OoT are the best use of this- Evil maze or place of worship? Depends who was there last.

So far as I'm concerned the ancient King (Zelda I's dad), the Scroll Writer and the King who created the enemies could be three entirely separate people separated by milennia each way.

Occam's Razor wouldn't like it, but it's entirely possible even in the NoA translation without any word games.

Originally Posted by River Zora

Again, I'm certain in my manual (and a scan I've found online) it makes no indication any King wrote the scroll, Zelda's father or otherwise... Am I missing something really obvious?

Originally Posted by English manual

Impa gave Link six crystals and a scroll[... and] explained that these items had been given to her ancestors by the king and handed down for generations in her family for when a time of need would come
[...]
The king had left Power and Wisdom in the kingdom, but had hidden Courage[...] because the king had not found [a worthy individual] during his reign, he cast a spell on Hyrule so that the crest would appear on the chosen one

The Japanese does not define who gave Impa the scroll, nor does it define the person who left the Triforce behind as the king. It lists the writer of the scroll as the person who hid the Triforce, however.

If you're like me and you take complementary versions of the manual as equally canon, this would mean that the scroll writer = the king.

Mine doesn't say that... Is that the story at the beginning with the scroll being given or is it elsewhere?

these items had been given to her ancestors by the king

Zelda gave Link the OoT- does that mean she crafted and enchanted it? The one who gives something is not necessarily the source.

The king had left Power and Wisdom in the kingdom, but had hidden Courage[...] because the king had not found [a worthy individual] during his reign, he cast a spell on Hyrule so that the crest would appear on the chosen one

I can't find this quotation- it seems like the one the scroll says but that's in first person thus never says King- only 'I'. What page is it on?

I have no problem with the scroll-writer being a King, but I don't know what labels him so in any translation.

Originally Posted by River Zora

Mine doesn't say that... Is that the story at the beginning with the scroll being given or is it elsewhere?

It's from the GBA manual - which I think we can take as a "true" version since it correctly labels the makai as the "world of evil" and not the "underworld" as the original translation:

Part 1
Part 2

Ah... That explains it. The GBA manuals are very different in Europe- more akin to the GBA aLttP edit. Both LoZ and AoL have only page-long histories with minimal details. Then again we've got to fit like eight languages in one manual so ours was probably cut down for practical reasons rather than storyline intention.

Interesting in spite of the new translation it's still 'world of evil' for Makai and not 'Dark World' as it is translated everywhere else... they still separate it- strange.

Interesting in spite of the new translation it's still 'world of evil' for Makai and not 'Dark World' as it is translated everywhere else... they still separate it- strange.

It's "world of evil" in Ocarina of Time

Ganondorf had become the Evil
King, and the Sacred Realm
became a world of evil.

Then it's settled!

Tea and crumpets all round

Originally Posted by Artemicion

...he died sometime during OoT and his son (Daphnes) could not inherit the full Triforce because it had split.

Don't drag Daphnes into this. It must have taken several centuries for
the Sages' seal to weaken allowing Ganon to return. I am sure Daphnes
was the King when Ganon returned, thus his regret that his kingdom
was sealed away. Daphnes can't be OoT' King's son.

Daphnes really can't be the OoT King's son when you consider that
Zelda has no brother, yet on the AT the King was killed when Zelda
was still a child... so how could the OoT King have fathered a son
after he died? No, no no. Daphnes has to be descended from OoT
Zelda, and not the OoT King.

Remember the AT ending? If Daphnes was the OoT's King's son, he
obviously did not survive Ganon's attack, or else he would have been
around with Adult Zelda, but he wasn't. He would've had to have been
OoT Zelda's brother, but died while Zelda was still a child.

This means Daphnes was killed during Ganon's attack, which means
that Daphnes was never the King for even a split-second...

Daphnes cannot = OoT King's son.
Simply impossible.

Originally Posted by Cukeman

Don't drag Daphnes into this. It must have taken several centuries for the Sages' seal to weaken

Then OoT Link being absent from the timeline didn't matter, as another hero could have still appeared a la TWW. Therein lies the rub!

Daphnes really can't be the OoT King's son when you consider that
Zelda has no brother

No Zelda in the timeline has a brother, and yet unless we assume the Triforce was out of the Sacred Realm prior to OoT (when GBA ALttP's manual says it was always there until the IW), only OoT Zelda can be the 'first generation' Zelda.

Remember the AT ending? If Daphnes was the OoT's King's son, he
obviously did not survive Ganon's attack, or else he would have been
around with Adult Zelda, but he wasn't.

If Daphnes was alive in OoT - he didn't factor into the story, and thus wouldn't have been shown anywhere in the game.

I deduce Daphnes as OoT Zelda's brother for two reasons:

1) He doesn't seem to be her father;
2) As I stated before, it doesn't appear that more than a generation passed between OoT and the flood