Why I Don't Think Brawl Is A Good Game (Challenge to Talhoffer)

A Few Things To Consider

1) These Are My Opinions
-Don't get your panties in a knot if I say something you don't like. I would hope that if I were to use subjective wording, such as bad and good, would give it away that it's my opinion, but apparently, you have to spell it out.

2) Brawl Is Not A Bad Game
-I don't hate Brawl. I think Brawl is good at what it does, but it could have been better, and it could have been smarter. I just don't think it's OMG GAME OF THE YEAR, and I don't think it's an entirely good game.

3) Yes, I Loved Melee, and I Did Only A Few Tourneys
-I'm not a big tourney goer, but I listen to tourney goers, mostly on SmashBoards, and I think Melee is one of the best fighters ever released. I've been to a few small tourneys, but I am nothing special. In my prime, I could have done "Okay" at a major tourney as Ganondorf in Melee, and I think I would get owned at a Brawl tournament due to a combination of my horrible main character, Ganondorf, and just because I'm merely "okay" at the game. I would probably be eliminated quickly from any tourney if counterpick characters are allowed. I beat my circle of friends consistently when I am in practice, but that doesn't matter.

WHY BRAWL IS NOT A GOOD GAME

1) The Unbalanced Multiplayer Gameplay
-This is my biggest complaint about Super Smash Brothers Brawl. Now, I really did not expect this game to be balanced; no fighting game is 100% balanced, and the general rule of thumb is, number of unique characters goes up, balance goes down. Brawl has 39 movesets, and maybe 1 or 2 are clones (Falco, Toon Link). This game is definitely more unbalanced than Melee.

-In a tournament setting, I have no doubt in my mind that this game is more unbalanced than Melee. Please see the Smashboards Brawl Tier List:
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Tier_list

-Meta Knight and Snake are in their OWN TIERS. They are considered that good by the Brawl competitive community. Meta Knight alone occupies Top Tier, while Snake alone occupies Second Tier. Then, we actually have more than one character in a tier, when we get to the Third Tier.

-The other thing that makes Brawl unbalanced is the sheer number of infinites and tricks, and thus hard counters there are. Here is the Brawl matchup chart:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315

-Some characters almost can't win against others. All you have to do is learn one simple trick and you're good. For example, the only thing a Marth player needs to do is just grab Ness and pummel him, then grab him again when Ness breaks free. Over and over, and over until Ness gets within kill range. And then, he can let Ness go free and use his forward smash for a kill.

-Ganondorf cannot win against Shiek because all Sheik needs to do is pull out her chain and camp on the edge. Due to some strange physics, Sheik can hit Ganondorf a million times with the chain and easily get him to 60%. Ganondorf can't do anything about it, because he has no projectiles, and his arms certainly are not longer than Sheik's chain. Sheik can then whip the chain back, and toss Ganondorf off the ledge, and he can't recover because Sheik keeps him from touching the ledge with her chain. Sheik also has a similar trick on Fox, Wolf, and Peach but at least they have projectiles.

-Then you see a bunch of other 30:70 and 20:80 matchups, meaning that this character will win 30 out of 100 times or 20 out of 100 against another. Diddy and Wario almost can't win against Luigi. Bowser and Wolf are no match for Dedede.

-Melee's matchup chart is here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=92025

-While it may not seem much better than Brawl's chart, Melee did not have the easy to do infinites like Brawl does. Marth may hard counter Mewtwo into oblivion, but at least it takes more effort than grabbing him, hitting A alot, then grabbing him again. I can assure you of this.

-Proving Melee is more balanced than Brawl is a longer argument, but I can at least have shown that Brawl is not very balanced.

-So, what does that tell us? That Brawl is not really meant to be played in a tournament setting. Alright, well, it looks like Smash has closed up at least one portion of it's game, and that's rewarding skill.

2) Why Is Character Balance Important.
-In short, a fighting game is very heavily defined by it's character roster. Most would agree that a fighting game with a balanced roster is key to fun.

-Imagine this: You're playing as Ness, and your friend chooses Marth. The beginning of the match goes like this: PK Thunder, he shields it, and he approaches. PK Fire, he counters it, or something. You decide to attack him. You use your forward tilt.

-And then you stop playing. Marth has just shielded your attack, and grabbed you. Pummel pummel pummel, you escape. He grabs you again. Pummel. You escape. He grabs you again. Pumel. Escape. Grab. Pummel. Escape. Grab.

-Now, whether or not someone has fun being locked and being unable to do anything is subjective. Sometimes that's someone's forte.

-But while he has you in this infinite, I have just proven that you are not even paying the game any more. I mean, you can mash buttons and rotate the control stick, but that's just delaying the inevitable. As soon as your friend, as Marth, grabs you, as Ness, what happens in the game is determined by your friend. He could, feasibly, keep you in this infinite FOREVER. I don't think that's fun.

-Now, imagine a lesser situation. You're playing Ganondorf, and your friend is playing Falco. Falco has a chaingrab on most of the cast, but it only lasts for about 30% plus a free hit at the end. While this sucks, let's keep on pretending that chaingrabs don't mean you're not having fun. Falco can sit there and shoot lasers at Ganondorf. Ganondorf can technically still approach Falco. So, when Ganondorf finally gets to Falco, they can engage in hand to hand fighting. However, Falco's forward smash has a farther reach than any of Ganondorf's moves. In fact, most of Falco's attacks come out faster, too. If you are both very good at the game, Falco has almost every advantage on you. He's not as strong as Ganondorf, but what does that matter when you can't get a hit off? He's not as heavy as Ganondorf, but what does that matter if Ganondorf can be intercepted easily while recovering.

-I don't enjoy being dominated due to character choice, but that's just me.

3) Stages
-Do I have to be blunt here? Most of the stages in Brawl suck.

-The stages in Brawl are filled with OHKOs, and other unbalanced stuff. Let's take WarioWare. The stage's obstacles aren't that bad, but the worst thing that happens is when the players are given rewards. What if one player gets invincibility, and two others get Super Mushrooms? That's not fair at all.

-Why are there stages where tether recovery just doesn't work? That screws over characters like ZSS, Ivy, and Olimar. In fact, there is a glitch which completely screws people using tether recoveries in the Space Station Orpheon stage, when the stage flips over. If they're grabbing the ledge with their tether, then when the stage flips down, they simply fall to their doom. They also have a significant disadvantage in Skyworld; another player can just destroy the platforms and deter their recovery.

-In fact, that's not the end of the game developers seemingly screwing over characters in the game through the stages. Any character who has a chaingrab will dominate another character on stages with walk-offs, like Bridge of Eldin, Green Hill Zone, and Mushroomy Kingdom.

-Some obstalces aren't that bad; most in the game are reasonably dodgeable. But I find them extremely annoying, and I don't like it when a stage kills me and not my oppponent. :-\

4) Features That Blow
-Basically, a couple of the games new features are fluff.

-Masterpieces: Arguably the most useless feature of the game. You get 2 minutes to play Ocarina of Time. >_> Well, okay, they're just demos, but you could live without them, and furthermore, they are games you have probably played before. Masterpieces ARE good if you want to hack the game, because they are, in fact, the full game on disk with time limits...

-Stickers: Stickers are useful only in SubSpace Emissary, but otherwise, they're not? I hope I don't need to argue that they're useless.

-Event Mode: The Events are very unimaginative, and some of them are just set up matches and don't have anything special about them. Examples include Events 5, 8, 13, 19, 21, 33, 35, 36, 38, and 40. And other Events are just regular matches with some slight tweaks, like a time limit for the Event where MK needs to keep Kirby from boarding the Halberd.

-Internet Play: The game is programmed to force 6 frames of lag on you at all times. Not to mention the fact that you can only tweak the rules when you play with friends, and your friend roster is limited.

-Target Test: There are only 5 Target Test courses in the game. This wouldn't be so bad, but to unlock everything, you have to play each one THIRTY-FIVE TIMES. You have to play Target Test a total of ONE-HUNDRED SEVENTY-FIVE times. 64 only made you play it twelve times, and Melee only made you play it twenty-five times. 25 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 175, by a longshot.

5) Good Features That Needed Work

-Stage Builder: Stage Builder was aiight, but having a limited number of blocks to use really goofed it up.

-Music: Music was fantastic, but there are a few questionable things. Like, why were some of the Battle themes from Pokemon left out for Route 209?

-SubSpace Emissary: This is a big beast, and I don't want to handle it because I think it was a good idea. However, it got boring very quickly for me, and you didn't get rewarded for beating it 100%.

6) The Casual Mentality
-The developers of the game did not expect you to become good at the game. If you have skill, they did not intend to reward you for it. Basically, what I think, was that the devs tried their best to make this game everything Melee was not.

-Competitive play has become demonized, and this game really confirms that. With all the simple, easy ways to dominate another character, this game was not made to reward skill. I think that's an insult to people who want a bit more from their game. The developers did not anticipate that you would become good at this game. That's why they put all sorts of hampers on skill, or rather, allowed so many hampers on skill to be in the game.

Brawl is a very good game, and you can be a good player with all the characters, you only need practice. Obviously there are characters with more abilities than others but all depends on how do you use the characters.
You hate brawl because you can't win with ganondorf, i saw some very good ganondorf's in brawl. You only need to improve your skills in brawl dude.

Brawl is a very good game, and you can be a good player with all the characters, you only need practice. Obviously there are characters with more abilities than others but all depends on how do you use the characters.
You hate brawl because you can't win with ganondorf, i saw some very good ganondorf's in brawl. You only need to improve your skills in brawl dude.

This, when players fights it comes down to skill. Only in CPU only matches and interactions do tiers activate. But what other stuff you said, I agree with most. A LOT of stages were very dull...and annoying. I used to detest Final Destination, but after Brawl I'm thankfull for a flat area where moving around isn't such a hassle.

The stage builder was fun, but HELL to work with once you began to reach your limit....seriously, why the bloody hell give us a limit? Even IF stage designs are too crazy it doesn't matter because it's for fun! They also needed more backround options, and building materials. Also color variety.

Originally Posted by smallville boy

Brawl is a very good game, and you can be a good player with all the characters, you only need practice. Obviously there are characters with more abilities than others but all depends on how do you use the characters.

I second that.

Originally Posted by smallville boy

You hate brawl because you can't win with ganondorf, i saw some very good ganondorf's in brawl. You only need to improve your skills in brawl dude

Take Jeff's Ganondorf for instance. His Ganondorf is a hard character to beat.

Originally Posted by Aura Pulse

The stage builder was fun, but HELL to work with once you began to reach your limit....seriously, why the bloody hell give us a limit? Even IF stage designs are too crazy it doesn't matter because it's for fun! They also needed more backround options, and building materials. Also color variety.

Yeah that's my reaction, too. It narrows down the creative ability in Stage Builder.

1) Unbalanced Multiplayer

Ok, we can agree that the roster is indeed unbalanced, but even under MK, the number is rarely below 30, which although isn't the best odds, I still consider decent odds. Even if there aren't many perfect match ups, the entire chart is a majority of yellow and close to yellow green and orange. For the most part, other than a few extremes, there are even match ups.

This will affect different players in different ways.
-Players like myself who dabble in more serious play, but still call ourselves casual:
While indeed players like myself do enjoy finding exploitable tricks, it's a general consensus that any really cheap automatic game winners are just wrong. If a friend/opponent used these tricks I'd just quit or change characters.
-For more serious/tournament players:
They'll all end up picking MK or Snake for the most part. So more serious players aren't going to get variety. That's -as far as I know- not as important as winning to them. Also cheaper techniques are normally banned -eg MK infinite cape. So really if you want to play seriously you ought to put strategy into selecting a main.
-For the really casual player that plays ever here and there:
Odds of them figuring out anything like this are really low. They'll just choose their favorite character and work through it. They'll be completely oblivious to these facts.

If I missed any demographics, please say so.

2) Importance of 1

I agree that tricks like these are completely unfair and will ruin anyone's experience. That being said, they are also a hollow victory. Afterall, what they do doesn't really show any sort of skill, just that they have the ability to exploit a weakness.

While indeed the Falco vs Ganondorf is a bit more of my idea of a decent match, it's really just fact that Ganondorf sucks. I agree that characters like Ganondorf really need major upgrades. That being said, Ganondorf is pretty much as low as it gets. For the other 30 some fighters, it's not nearly as bad.

I agree character choice shouldn't screw someone over completely, but then again informed decisions never hurt anyone.

3) Stages

I agree that stages like Wario Ware absolutely suck. Ofcourse that's why I never go there. I do wish they'd make less killer stages. Even so, there is a decent selection of fair stages, and while it's limited in ability, the stage builder does allow for the creation of decently balanced stages. Some of the stags are just fun to go to though. If you just want to piddle around and stuff, stages like picto chat are just nice to mess with. I'd like to see more neutral type stages, but I would also like to see more relaxing stages. Oh and that stage with the color changing leaves has got to be the worst stage ever.

4) Features that Suck

-Masterpieces
I can't blame Nintendo for wanting to promote themselves. It's shameless product placement, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't tried them all and to some degree enjoyed it. It's a cheap thrill that I feel should be just an option to demon via Wii Shop Channel, but it's in the game. I just choose not to care.
-Stickers
I see them as an extension of trophies. While indeed they don't really do anything, I do enjoy just having a nice big collection.
-Events
Yeah, these weren't nearly as good as Melee's. Still had fun with them though, and being able to choose a difficulty setting for them was a nice add on.
-Internet
Ok, I agree that this really needed a lot more work. After having gotten used to Xbox Live at my cousin's house, I have to say this is now looking like a dissappointment. I do indeed though still enjoy a good online match though. Perhaps next time nintendo will go heavier into this.

-Target Test
The 5 courses was indeed a setback -I liked the personalized ones a lot more- and I agree it's nuts to have to do it with every character at every level. Still, they are fun to do although because they aren't personalized, it's admittedly hair pullingly annoying to use the worst character for the course and only be able to get 9 targets and constantly being impossibly close to the 10th and dying.

5) Tweaks

-Stage Builder: I agree
-Music: If there was one thing I really didn't think you could complain about in Brawl it was most certainly the music.
-SSE: It was a fun little romp and the cutscenes were fun to watch, but the levels were indeed a grind. Not to mention that maze at the end was a pain.

6) The Casual Mentality

-Here is a spot I can definitely take a different view point on. While indeed, Nintendo did make this to be a casual game, but at the same time, I feel like it was made to please both crowds. The extra content does do a lot to please many core gamers. I feel like it's a bridge game. It's a game you can learn fairly quickly but it is pretty hard to master. I think that while they didn't mean to, Nintendo created a game most core gamers would be more than satisfied with -like myself- while softer gamers would discover from it that there's more than pick up and gimmickity -yay made up word- to video games. That said, it's definitely not a game for everyone. I really think it best suits my area of the three types of gamers listed above.

-One thing you have to keep in mind is that the developers aren't able to know all the capabilities of their own game. They could delay it a month to try and make a tier list and try and change characters according to that, but it takes the entire internet about a year to make this list. I don't think than they didn't intend for people to get good at the game, they just didn't know everything their own program could do.

Overall, I guess we have more similar thoughts than we thought. That being said, I just don't look at the bad side of brawl as it doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. It could just be because I chose Toon Link for a main rather than someone like Ganondorf so my matches are typically more on the even side. -Yay mid tier- Or perhaps it's just a genuine different state of mind. Whatever it may be, I consider Brawl to be one of the best games I've ever played -and I have played plenty of games good and bad- That's just my stance.

Originally Posted by smallville boy

Brawl is a very good game, and you can be a good player with all the characters, you only need practice. Obviously there are characters with more abilities than others but all depends on how do you use the characters.

Well duh, skill does determine who wins. But matchups in Brawl become very important once you learn a couple of tricks.

You hate brawl because you can't win with ganondorf,

No, I don't hate Brawl because I can't win with Ganondorf. I can beat my friends consistently, unless they use a bug in the game to win, or unless they use Falco and camp.

i saw some very good ganondorf's in brawl. You only need to improve your skills in brawl dude.

Watch this video first:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMdj-i5w6U4

Now, tell me how to win in this situation. Sheik, camping on the ledge at the beginning of the game, with her chain out. If she catches Ganondorf, he is trapped for a bit, either he gets damaged or he is pushed off the stage. Sheik's chain is longer than Ganondorf's limbs and outprioritizes most of his attacks.

Brawl is full of this BS.

I'm not one to complain about characters having multiple advantages and disadvantages that lead to them have a good matchup against another character. My best friend plays Sonic as his main character, and even though Sonic has many innate abilities that give him an advantage over Ganondorf, he doesn't have a single, overwhelmingly powerful ability that defeats me.

Originally Posted by Aura Pulse

This, when players fights it comes down to skill. Only in CPU only matches and interactions do tiers activate.

And you sir don't know how tiers work. I really don't want to get into a discussion about tiers in this topic, but you're wrong on many levels:

1) Tiers don't "activate," tiers are a concept.
2) In fact, CPU matches is probably where tiers matter the least, because the characters are most certainly not being played to their potential.

Originally Posted by FD-Oni Link

Take Jeff's Ganondorf for instance. His Ganondorf is a hard character to beat.

And a Sheik who knows what their doing has an EXTREMELY good chance of beating him, and that's only because of characters.

And a Sheik at Jeff's skill level will beat him almost every time.

Originally Posted by Talhoffer

1) Unbalanced Multiplayer

Ok, we can agree that the roster is indeed unbalanced, but even under MK, the number is rarely below 30, which although isn't the best odds, I still consider decent odds. Even if there aren't many perfect match ups, the entire chart is a majority of yellow and close to yellow green and orange. For the most part, other than a few extremes, there are even match ups.

70:30 matchups are sprinkled all over the chart, though. You may not consider them bad odds, but in competitive terms a character with a 70:30 against a character makes them a hard counter. It's not really about the majority of matchups being even, it's about those extreme matchups being there in the first place, and when we're talking about Brawl, it's about the easy tricks that can be used to beat another character. I'm at the skill level where I can destroy almost any of my opponents using some BS.

Need to kill Ganny? Use Sheik.
Captain Falcon? Meta Knight.
Jiggs? Use Marth.
Link troubling you? Use Meta Knight.
Pokemon Trainer's entire team gets manhandled by Meta Knight.
Samus has almost no hope against Meta.
Ness can't win against Marth.
Lucas can't beat Marth.
Mario is beaten by Game and Watch.
Ike by Falco.
Fox is infinited by the Ice Climbers, Sheik, and Pikachu
Bowser? Dedede.
Zelda? Marth.
Luigi just gets owned by everyone in the top tiers.
Wolf? Dedede.
ZSS? Dedede.
Ice Climbers? Snake
R.O.B? Meta or ZSS.
Diddy? Olimar and Luigi
Dedede? Ice Climbers

So, that leaves Yoshi, Sheik, Sonic, Peach, Pit, DK, Kirby, Lucario, Wario, Diddy, Game and Watch, Falco, Snake, and Meta, who aren't hard countered by an infinite grab. And everyone there, except for Meta, Snake, and Falco, have plenty of strange 35:75 matchups.

This will affect different players in different ways.
-Players like myself who dabble in more serious play, but still call ourselves casual:
While indeed players like myself do enjoy finding exploitable tricks, it's a general consensus that any really cheap automatic game winners are just wrong. If a friend/opponent used these tricks I'd just quit or change characters.

See, that's a huge problem with Brawl then. The game gives you that option, but that option is unviable.

-For more serious/tournament players:
They'll all end up picking MK or Snake for the most part. So more serious players aren't going to get variety. That's -as far as I know- not as important as winning to them. Also cheaper techniques are normally banned -eg MK infinite cape.

Actually, the only tricks that are banned are the ones related to holding up a match. Character tricks that are inherent to the game's mechanics are not banned.

-For the really casual player that plays ever here and there:
Odds of them figuring out anything like this are really low. They'll just choose their favorite character and work through it. They'll be completely oblivious to these facts.

You're right, or at least, that might have been the hope of the developers. But I doubt a casual player will like it when someone such as myself minus restraint (I sandbag and hold back heavily against people who I know are not good) will go and ruin their fun.

2) Importance of 1

I agree that tricks like these are completely unfair and will ruin anyone's experience. That being said, they are also a hollow victory. Afterall, what they do doesn't really show any sort of skill, just that they have the ability to exploit a weakness.

While indeed the Falco vs Ganondorf is a bit more of my idea of a decent match, it's really just fact that Ganondorf sucks. I agree that characters like Ganondorf really need major upgrades. That being said, Ganondorf is pretty much as low as it gets. For the other 30 some fighters, it's not nearly as bad.

The Ganondorf vs Falco matchup I brought up was just an example of a person having some skill and using it against a character without the advantage. I know Ganny has many poor matchups. Many characters, however, have many poor matchups which lead to them just being straight up countered.

I agree character choice shouldn't screw someone over completely, but then again informed decisions never hurt anyone.

Then the game is being dishonest, which is an ethical question, but the fact that it's there is poor game design.

3) Stages

I agree that stages like Wario Ware absolutely suck. Ofcourse that's why I never go there. I do wish they'd make less killer stages. Even so, there is a decent selection of fair stages, and while it's limited in ability, the stage builder does allow for the creation of decently balanced stages. Some of the stags are just fun to go to though. If you just want to piddle around and stuff, stages like picto chat are just nice to mess with. I'd like to see more neutral type stages, but I would also like to see more relaxing stages. Oh and that stage with the color changing leaves has got to be the worst stage ever.

Aiight.

[QUOTE]4) Features that Suck

-Masterpieces
I can't blame Nintendo for wanting to promote themselves. It's shameless product placement, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't tried them all and to some degree enjoyed it. It's a cheap thrill that I feel should be just an option to demon via Wii Shop Channel, but it's in the game. I just choose not to care.

And I'm saying it was touted as a major feature of the game.

-Stickers
I see them as an extension of trophies. While indeed they don't really do anything, I do enjoy just having a nice big collection.

I see masterpieces and stickers as a major example of fluff put into the game to make the game seem like it has more content. It does end up putting more content into the game, but is it useful content? No.

6) The Casual Mentality

-Here is a spot I can definitely take a different view point on. While indeed, Nintendo did make this to be a casual game, but at the same time, I feel like it was made to please both crowds. The extra content does do a lot to please many core gamers. I feel like it's a bridge game. It's a game you can learn fairly quickly but it is pretty hard to master.

And yet, the important part of the game is: does it reward you for mastering it? With the way every character has another character who can spit in their face, I would definitely say that mastering the game is not worth it.

I think that while they didn't mean to, Nintendo created a game most core gamers would be more than satisfied with -like myself- while softer gamers would discover from it that there's more than pick up and gimmickity -yay made up word- to video games. That said, it's definitely not a game for everyone. I really think it best suits my area of the three types of gamers listed above.

Now, here's the thing: the developers actually rounded up a group of Japanese pros and asked them what they thought about Melee, and how Melee could be improved.

However, Brawl's game engine turned out to be a step back from Melee's game engine. What does that tell you? I'm not going to say that the developers decided to actually do destroy everything the Melee pros suggested, but it sure seems that way.

The bugs and infinites were easy to find, and easy to perform, and the game is already much, much glitchier and buggy than Melee or Smash 64 ever were, and that's saying alot since Melee came out 8 years ago, and 64 came out 11 years ago.

Not to mention that Sakurai considers Smash a party game, and not a fighting game.

-One thing you have to keep in mind is that the developers aren't able to know all the capabilities of their own game.

That's fine and true and all, but the infinite and problems with Brawl are plainly obvious, and many of those tricks were found by Smashboards in the same month.

They could delay it a month to try and make a tier list and try and change characters according to that,

That's not how it works. >_>

but it takes the entire internet about a year to make this list.

Smashboards, a small community site, made the most accepted tier list.

I don't think than they didn't intend for people to get good at the game, they just didn't know everything their own program could do.

The point is, though, that the unbalancedness of Brawl is quite plain to see and easy to ascertain. As soon as Brawl came out, Smashboards was saying Snake is the best character in the game, and where is he now? He is second on the tier list, not far from the hypothesis at all. Chaingrabs were being found, because they were so simple to perform.

Overall, I guess we have more similar thoughts than we thought. That being said, I just don't look at the bad side of brawl as it doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. It could just be because I chose Toon Link for a main rather than someone like Ganondorf so my matches are typically more on the even side. -Yay mid tier- Or perhaps it's just a genuine different state of mind. Whatever it may be, I consider Brawl to be one of the best games I've ever played -and I have played plenty of games good and bad- That's just my stance.

Okay. I accept that.

Let me simply this for you:

Brawl is a good game because I have fun with it
I win

(1) It is waaaaaaay hard to balance any game. I understand your frustration, but no one foresees how character X or move Y will suddenly dominate the game. Nintendo is stupid for not allowing balance patches.

(2) See #1. Balance is the holy grail of gaming.

(3) And people wonder why competitive players ban so many stages.

(4) I have to agree here. Too much emphasis was placed on extra junk instead of on solid multiplayer balance.

(5) Yup. Stage Builder fell flat. It isn't a complete waste. There are still plenty of options in terms of stage design, but it was heavily constricted.

(6) There is nothing we can do about this one. Sakurai wanted everyone to win. He does not like it when one player dominates another even though that one player may have worked for it (heaven forbid).

I think Brawl is heaps cool. it looks like you wrote a hole s.a. on how you don't like it

Solution: GET BRAWL +!

Now I feel like playing Melee.

(I have not read this thread.)

I'm judging TheBattler and Buzz are the only people who said anything smart in this thread, and everyone else cried their scrubby hearts out.

I'm now going to read the thread and see how close I was.

Originally Posted by smallville boy

You hate brawl because you can't win with ganondorf

Ganondorf covered one or two points here. Besides, he didn't say he hated Brawl. But of course, I don't expect you to read that - it's probably too hard.

Originally Posted by smallville boy

Brawl is a very good game, and you can be a good player with all the characters, you only need practice. Obviously there are characters with more abilities than others but all depends on how do you use the characters.
You hate brawl because you can't win with ganondorf, i saw some very good ganondorf's in brawl. You only need to improve your skills in brawl dude.

"i saw this guy win once with ganondorf tiers must suck"

Originally Posted by Aura Pulse

This, when players fights it comes down to skill. Only in CPU only matches and interactions do tiers activate.

sorry, but where are you getting this from? it's completely wrong.

Originally Posted by FD-Oni Link

Take Jeff's Ganondorf for instance. His Ganondorf is a hard character to beat.

No one said you can't be good with Ganondorf. At lower levels of play ONLINE, you can't use any experience as a staple.

Originally Posted by Teekay

Let me simply this for you:

Brawl is a good game because I have fun with it
I win

brawl is a bad game because I do not have fun with it

oh look i win too

Originally Posted by Erikson

Now I feel like playing Melee.

<3

I don't have much to say except that I agree completely.

Incidentally, considering they have access to every Nintendo video game OST ever, Brawl's music choices were ****.

The music in Brawl

Well composed. ****ty choices.

sorry, but where are you getting this from? it's completely wrong.

My own opinion which does house common sense on the matter. A tier is basically the result of numerous tests to see how each fighter or character fares against another, as far as i'm told. BUT, this gets completely thrown up in the air seeing as each Brawl between humans, varying in experience or skill which by the way can not be organized into units in real life, (for example, you can't walk up to me saying "HA! I'm 4.97 units more experienced than you are! Therefore I win in Brawl!")

So basically, the outcome of a match between humans are random at best. It all depends on the person's skill, and the overall directions of a match, the item appearances and possesions (this, i believe is why most people don't like to use items in Brawl matches?) and the stage itself. Now, the CPU's no matter what skill level, are already given "instincts" i guess you could say. For example a level 9 Ganondorf will most likely beat a level 4 Ness. The higher the level the better "qualities" of the moves and reaction times. It's far easier to judge characters with CPU matches where both fighters are the same level, but EVEN then the outcome is up in the air, it's just leaned toward one of them due to skill and moves.

Overall tiers don't matter for US, the human players as it always boils down to experience and skill, which can never be judged approximately.

A) This sort of thing isn't a matter of opinion. Some characters ARE better than others.
B) CPU don't play like humans. Humans play with common sense and human nature, whereas CPUs don't.
C) Humans exploit characters to be the bets they can be, and when you begin to dig deeper into the game you discover all sort of mathematical (lag frames, priorities, etc) knowledge to exploit characters to use them the best. Do you honestly think that all the characters are balanced?
D) If skill doesn't matter, why am I better with Lucario than with Captain Falcon? Why do all the best players use Metaknight? Coincidence, I suppose?

Oh, and tiers are based on facts stemming from HUMAN results, HUMAN discoveries, and various facts on the properies of moves (discovered by humans). CPUs don't factor into the equation at all.

Characters do matter, because it's always going to play a part in your match, and in Brawl it plays all too big a part. Sorry, but you clearly haven't done any research on this too challenge the facts that have been discovered by those who have.

Originally Posted by Teekay

Let me simply this for you:

Brawl is a good game because I have fun with it
I win

Yes.

TheBattler stop over complicating things... The majority of people who own and play Brawl don't care about every single bell and whistle that makes the game bad. Every game has flaws.

B) CPU don't play like humans. Humans play with common sense and human nature, whereas CPUs don't.

I agree. I came to this conclusion.

D) If skill doesn't matter, why am I better with Lucario than with Captain Falcon? Why do all the best players use Metaknight? Coincidence, I suppose?

I said that it all boils down to human skills. Did you just skim my post or did you read it....?

All I am saying is that anything can happen in a match to predict the outcome.

BACK ON TOPIC

So yeah, the stage builder was crappy but I managed to make some ones that i love. I hope they bring it into the next SSB with more options (especially backgrounds, only 3????)

I also noticed for my first time playing Brawl that the physics changed, for example characters are more heavier. I didn't like this as I basically had to reset the timing and strategic elements due to the reaction time switch and physics of the characters and items in Brawl whereas I had already established them in Melee.