Why I Don't Think Brawl Is A Good Game (Challenge to Talhoffer)

I fully agree with the conclusion of the original poster, but probably for different reasons.

I was good at Melee, but never played competitively (attending tourneys and such). I'm less confident of my skill in Brawl because I haven't played it as extensively.

I don't resent people that who play that way; in fact I feel sorry for them because even as a novice I can tell the bar was lowered for Brawl.

I mention this only to show that I am fairly ignorant of the supposed tiers and technical jargon.

My peeves with Brawl.

-Highly conservative effort for a 7 year gap and a new platform.

-Fewer and less creative event matches.

-Reduced "break the targets" mode. Instead of a 25 unique stages tailored to the abilities of each character, we get five universal stages.

-Removal of post battle descriptions; I cannot figure out why they were done away with.

-SSE not all it's cracked up to be. The SSB control scheme does not lend itself well to adventure and platforming.

-Slower game play. Too much emphasis on defense. Hate the "edge" physics--characters are way too grip-happy. Final Smash is a clear indication that this would be aimed more at casuals and further encourages players to adopt a defensive strategy. Did not like most of the changes made to old characters (replacing Mario's spin move with a useless water gun is one of the more egregious examples, but there are plenty).

-Questionable character selection. Wolf didn't need to be in. Rob was kind of stupid too. I personally hate Lucas as well. Lucario was a step down from Mewtwo. To me, Pokemon Trainer felt really odd along side Pikachu and Jigglypuff. Isaac should have been selected over Ike (or Marth). I couldn't believe Ganondorf was still a clone of Captain Falcon.


Specific grievances aside, when I step back and assess Brawl as a whole, I feel the stench of mediocrity permeates throughout. No aspect of the game is spared. The game play, the stages, the items, the character design, the graphics, the music, the features--just everything.

I consider it the most overrated Wii game.

Originally posted by Black_Mamba
-Removal of post battle descriptions; I cannot figure out why they were done away with.

You mean the little stats after a match? On the screen which shows who won/loss?

-Slower game play. Too much emphasis on defense.

That's how the franchise in general is, at least when put against the rest of the genre. No hitstun = defensive fighting.

(replacing Mario's spin move with a useless water gun is one of the more egregious examples

You've never used it for edge-guarding, have you?

-Questionable character selection. Wolf didn't need to be in. Rob was kind of stupid too. I personally hate Lucas as well. Lucario was a step down from Mewtwo. To me, Pokemon Trainer felt really odd along side Pikachu and Jigglypuff. Isaac should have been selected over Ike (or Marth). I couldn't believe Ganondorf was still a clone of Captain Falcon.

When you see what they can do, they make sense. Wolf really is a different fighter from Falco and Fox, while ROBs turning out to be one of the coolest characters in the game. Lucario's far better than Mewtwo, and Ganondorf is not a Falcon clone.

Originally Posted by Jeff

You mean the little stats after a match? On the screen which shows who won/loss?

The qualitative descriptions.

"Down, but not Out." "Offensive Master" "Stale Moves" etc.

You've never used it for edge-guarding, have you?

I know what edge-guarding is and I knew right away what that move was supposed to do. It still sucks.

When you see what they can do, they make sense. Wolf really is a different fighter from Falco and Fox, while ROBs turning out to be one of the coolest characters in the game. Lucario's far better than Mewtwo, and Ganondorf is not a Falcon clone.

I don't consider Wolf a clone. I just don't like him. Ditto for Lucario. I am not familiar with the last two generations of Pokemon, but if he's the best they could pick, they must be every bit as bad as they seem.

We can argue over the definition of clone, but we know that Falcon and Ganondorf have the same special attacks (except now Ganondorf grabs the enemy on his side B) Obviously their speed and power are a lot different.

Originally posted by Black_Mamba
The qualitative descriptions.

"Down, but not Out." "Offensive Master" "Stale Moves" etc.

Oh.

Who cares?

I know what edge-guarding is and I knew right away what that move was supposed to do. It still sucks.

Then you don't know what it's capable of.

I don't consider Wolf a clone. I just don't like him. Ditto for Lucario. I am not familiar with the last two generations of Pokemon, but if he's the best they could pick, they must be every bit as bad as they seem.

Thanks to the one movie, he's a very popular character amongst the fanbase, and easily the most suitable for a fighting game as he shows in Brawl.

Lame purism with Pokemon aside, he made perfect sense to be in the game.

We can argue over the definition of clone, but we know that Falcon and Ganondorf have the same special attacks (except now Ganondorf grabs the enemy on his side B) Obviously their speed and power are a lot different.

I've played Ganondorf quite a bit. They're not the same. They're coming closer to a Mario/Luigi comparison with Brawl.

I think I'll jump into this conversation. I've a few things to say.

First, looking at the matchup chart, I can see why I do best against Ganny when I use Ike. XD

Second, I agree with Jeff. Lucario is far better than Mewtwo. WAY higher on the Brawl tier list than Mewtwo was on the Melee one. I bet you if both of them were in Brawl, Mewtwo would have his ass handed to him a vast majority of the time in Lucario vs Mewtwo.

Mario's FLUDD can be a good edge-guarder, however, I must say that it would have been better if it could do some damage like the cape can. Plus, that thing is hard enough to time right anyway.

I also would like to say something on the chaingrabbing topic. Many people have told me Ike cannot chaingrab. I kept saying and saying he can, he can, I've done it, I've done it, and look here! He's on the chaingrab list! What's more, he can do it with two different grabs on almost anyone and go up to 100%, making it easy for his powerful attacks to make a KO afterwards.

Yet, I wonder why he's still so low on the tier list if he can pull off such a tactic. Ike players should practice this as well as his amazing jab-cancel, Quick Draw Cancel, Aether Meteoring, just meteoring in general, the grab-Aether combo (can be done with up throw or down throw with an Aether following), and more.

Also, because of Ike's insane chaingrabbing ability, I've been able to take down characters who are supposed to be bad match ups, particularly Falco and Marth.

By the way, I've noticed that Marth is one of the two characters I tend to defeat most with Ike (the other being Ganny, obviously). Find that odd? I don't. Marth is supposedly the superior match up here, but not for me. Why? I love Ike's range, power, better chaingrabbing ability, better Counter, and better meteor smashing ability. It is true that Marth has faster attacks, but they don't do much to heavyweight Ike unless the tip of the blade hits. Dancing Blade is really the only bad problem for me.

Oh, and similarly, I am not great against Ike with Marth and I'm not bad with him either. My Marth has rarely ever beaten an Ike.

Originally Posted by Black_Mamba

I know what edge-guarding is and I knew right away what that move was supposed to do. It still sucks.

Look up some videos of the FLUUD being used. A pro can use it way better than the spin move. They also added it to make Mario and Luigi look less like clones.

I don't consider Wolf a clone. I just don't like him. Ditto for Lucario. I am not familiar with the last two generations of Pokemon, but if he's the best they could pick, they must be every bit as bad as they seem.

All of the Pokemon characters aren't just picked because of the game. The only reason Jillypuff was introduced into the series was because of the movies/shows. Lucario was in a movie as well and I think he fits in very well with the game.

We can argue over the definition of clone, but we know that Falcon and Ganondorf have the same special attacks (except now Ganondorf grabs the enemy on his side B) Obviously their speed and power are a lot different

They have 3 moves in common. Back Air, B-Side, and B-Up.

Clones were eliminated from the game in my opinion.

Originally posted by Lady Ranny
By the way, I've noticed that Marth is one of the two characters I tend to defeat most with Ike (the other being Ganny, obviously). Find that odd? I don't. Marth is supposedly the superior match up here, but not for me. Why? I love Ike's range, power, better chaingrabbing ability, better Counter, and better meteor smashing ability. It is true that Marth has faster attacks, but they don't do much to heavyweight Ike unless the tip of the blade hits. Dancing Blade is really the only bad problem for me.

You've played mediocre Marths, then, because Marth is one of the very best characters in the game.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Oh.
Who cares?

I thought they were fun. I don't see a reason to take them out.

Then you don't know what it's capable of.

Maybe not.

I've played Ganondorf quite a bit. They're not the same. They're coming closer to a Mario/Luigi comparison with Brawl.

Why do they share the same special moves? They have nothing to do with one another. Wouldn't it have been cooler to have Ganondorf whip out his sword or attack with his trademark energy blasts?

Originally Posted by Lady Ranny

Also, because of Ike's insane chaingrabbing ability, I've been able to take down characters who are supposed to be bad match ups, particularly Falco and Marth.

sdgtcfvc hbkdsBVLM;MV'L

Originally Posted by Lady Ranny

I also would like to say something on the chaingrabbing topic. Many people have told me Ike cannot chaingrab. I kept saying and saying he can, he can, I've done it, I've done it, and look here! He's on the chaingrab list! What's more, he can do it with two different grabs on almost anyone and go up to 100%, making it easy for his powerful attacks to make a KO afterwards.

Yet, I wonder why he's still so low on the tier list if he can pull off such a tactic. Ike players should practice this as well as his amazing jab-cancel, Quick Draw Cancel, Aether Meteoring, just meteoring in general, the grab-Aether combo (can be done with up throw or down throw with an Aether following), and more.

Also, because of Ike's insane chaingrabbing ability, I've been able to take down characters who are supposed to be bad match ups, particularly Falco and Marth.

Oh, and similarly, I am not great against Ike with Marth and I'm not bad with him either. My Marth has rarely ever beaten an Ike.

Erm Ranny... IKE CANNOT CHAINGRAB. I've seen you try it on me over and over and over, but you do it once and I can easily Jump, Dodge, or Attack out of it at 0%.

Perhaps your Marth isn't that good then. Mine easily beats Ikes, almost all of the time.

Originally posted by Black_Mamba
Why do they share the same special moves? They have nothing to do with one another. Wouldn't it have been cooler to have Ganondorf whip out his sword or attack with his trademark energy blasts?

Yeah, but unlike you I don't focus primarily on the parts of a game that aren't to my preference. I tend to center on the fact that; 1. Ganondorf's in the game, 2. he and Falcon aren't really clones anymore, and 3. he's one of my best characters, and more importantly 4. there's a ton of other great **** in Brawl that makes me forget that one character out of 37 isn't the very best he could be.

Originally Posted by Toon Flink

Erm Ranny... IKE CANNOT CHAINGRAB. I've seen you try it on me over and over and over, but you do it once and I can easily Jump, Dodge, or Attack out of it at 0%.

Are you blind? I just gave you proof that he can. I'm not good at it yet and you've always been a better Brawler than me.

I JUST CRIED BLOOD FROM MY ANUS

IT HAPPENED

I SWEAR

They're hardly less clones than they were in Melee. They tweaked Ganondorf's side B and gave him a new up smash. That about it.

Then again, I don't want to create the impression that any single detail is my reason for labeling Brawl mediocre.

It's the aggregate of multiple details.

That's text proof...

And you do realize that chain grabbing is where the opponent cannot escape whatsoever if you do it well, right?

And if you aren't good at it yet how are you able to beat Falco's?

Originally Posted by Kitsuné

I JUST CRIED BLOOD FROM MY ANUS

IT HAPPENED

I SWEAR

You used Caps, I believe you.

Yes, I do realize that. I'm not stupid. I've chaingrabbed people with Ike and they could not escape until I got to the edge of the stage.

As for Falco, that is because I could whenever I did manage to pull off the chaingrab. He's harder to do it on because he's fast, but I have done it.

And if you want me to prove Ike's chaingrab in game, play me right now.

Originally Posted by Lady Ranny

Yes, I do realize that. I'm not stupid. I've chaingrabbed people with Ike and they could not escape until I got to the edge of the stage.

As for Falco, that is because I could whenever I did manage to pull off the chaingrab. He's harder to do it on because he's fast, but I have done it.

And if you want me to prove Ike's chaingrab in game, play me right now.

Okay. Lets do it then.

ranil, the framework on ike's fthrow does not allow for a chaingrab. a chaingrab is something that is inescapable no matter who is holding the control, and no matter what they do. when you 'chaingrabbed' before, that was because of poor DI/reflexes from your opponent.

I]Originally posted by Black_Mamba[/i]
They're hardly less clones than they were in Melee. They tweaked Ganondorf's side B and gave him a new up smash. That about it.

They were quite literally clones in Melee. Not so much in Brawl, as this will show-

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Ganondorf_(SSBB)

And trust me, when you play them extensively, that stuff matters.