Brawl: The Dynamics of 2 vs 3 vs 4 Player matches

Recently I was brawling some friends. We did 2 3 and 4 player matches. I found the dynamics of all these matches to be insanely different.

In a one on one match, it seems to be all about who can land major combos, rack up damage, and really get into the brawl. There is a lot of individual skill here. It's all about making your own oppurtunities.

In a 3 way match, the dynamics change quite a bit. It seems less about getting into the brawl and instead getting the other two to brawl eachother, yet not letting them realize you're staying out of the way. Also it's typically important to hit off a friends combo, and finding oppurtunities in what one opponent does to the other.

Finally, in a 4 way brawl, I find it to be absolute chaos. Spamming actually can work. Mainly because it's all chaos anyways. Another thing I noted, it seems to either break off into two one on one matches on big stages, or on smaller stages it becomes a big swirling mess. Here, you almost seem to have to stay out of the way otherwise you will get caught in the middle of a combo. Getting into the brawl seems to be a terrible idea.

These are just a few quick observations I've made. Draw from it what you will, but I got to wondering: Could the various dynamics of different match styles affect character teirs for such a match? For example: Ganondorf is great for capitalizing off of a faster player's moves which he normally couldn't do. Also, what do you think is the best way to brawl? I've found that 3 way is my personal favorite. I can use my head aswell as skill. That's the thing I've found to work best, and they boil down to one on one matches pretty quickly anyways.

So, thoughts comments questions additions anything will do.

I agree with what you said.
About tiers, I guess it's only about one on one, and power characters might be the ones at the top tiers in 3 and more so in 4 player FFA. (IMO)
But I think 4 player FFA are the best as I'm always looking for fun in Brawl. That rarely happens due to lag.

I personally like the 1 on 1 matches. These are the matches where it all boils down to skill...
and I agree with you on the general dynamics of the matches! nice find, i never really though about it... I'd say the larger characters are best in the 3 player rounds... they can capitalize off the mass damage, but still be able to stay out of the way for their slower attacks...
just my thoughts

I noticed that I lose more on 4-player matches, even when I can beat all 3 opponents individually.
But anyway, I agree with what Tally-chan's already said.

I like 1 v 1 matches, I feel that they are more fun, require more skill, and enhance the player's abilities. When I am bored and go do Basic Brawl with anyone, I find a lot of spamming, items, and really unfair stages. Oddly enough I can win these matches too

who can land major combos, rack up damage, and really get into the brawl.

Major combos... Brawl...? Brawl has almost no combos.

It's hilarious to do a 4 way brawl with me as MK and do Temple where I can endlessly glide back and forth while they kill each other.

I like 1 vs 1 best. Although you didn't mention team play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KmxNpybHI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzNzaPJKSbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4d-oLNMLWY

Brawl has a lot of combos. You just have to make them yourself.

the best way to Brawl is 4 player free-for-all all items on medium spawn rate 3-5 stock no time limit.

Originally Posted by Tally-chan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KmxNpybHI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzNzaPJKSbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4d-oLNMLWY

Brawl has a lot of combos. You just have to make them yourself.

The majority of those weren't combos. xP

Originally Posted by Kitsuné

The majority of those weren't combos. xP

Fair enough but combos do exist.

Brawl doesn't have combos in the fighting sense because the game is built around single hits as opposed to complex button sequences, like all other fighting games.

However, I prefer the way it does its 'combos'.

They're called... move chains *shrugs*

Originally Posted by alexchu9

I personally like the 1 on 1 matches. These are the matches where it all boils down to skill...
and I agree with you on the general dynamics of the matches! nice find, i never really though about it... I'd say the larger characters are best in the 3 player rounds... they can capitalize off the mass damage, but still be able to stay out of the way for their slower attacks...
just my thoughts

Truth spoken by the Alex.

1 on 1 is fun if you relaly want to test out your skill, plus in 1 on 1 you can plan out dodging and stufff WAY better.

also, items aren't as cheap in 1 on 1.
but 4 player is a lot of fun if you just want a huge chaotic brawl

I think that there are two sides to brawl, the chaotic-pick-up-and-play type of match, and the dodge-everything-with-skill matches, which is the difference betweeen 1 on 1 and 4 player.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Brawl doesn't have combos in the fighting sense because the game is built around single hits as opposed to complex button sequences, like all other fighting games.

Two things wrong:

1) Brawl barely has combos, in any sort of sense. A combo is two or more hits of guaranteed damage, after the first one has hit. Brawl has a few combos, which are barely of 2-3 hits. Otherwise, lack of hitstun lets you shield or aerial dodge in the middle of most attacks, making the combos in Brawl limited to:

U-tilt traps at low percentages
Chaingrabs
A few characters have combos in the form of jumping, backward aerial, then jumping again and backward aerial

2) Saying "All other fighting games" screams "I have not played any other fighting games for more than one hour besides Smash!!" Only a few fighting games have "complex" button sequences, like Tekken, which most people already know is overly complicated (Tekken is awful). GOOD fighting games, like Street Fighter and Soul Calibur, don't have as simple a control scheme as Smash Bros, but they're very easy to learn, and the combos in those games are just like the ones in Smash; make-your-own combos, although they are mixed in with some pre-set combos the game designers put into the game.

A few fighting games, like Virtua Fighter, do have "complex button sequences," but it's only because they're supposed to be highly competitive games in the first place, and use the complex button sequences sort of as a deterrant to casual players and as a game mechanic (there's a concept called buffering that Smash lacks, where you perform a move, then input the first couple inputs of your next move before the move you are currently performing ends).

Originally posted by TheBattler
1) Brawl barely has combos, in any sort of sense. A combo is two or more hits of guaranteed damage, after the first one has hit. Brawl has a few combos, which are barely of 2-3 hits. Otherwise, lack of hitstun lets you shield or aerial dodge in the middle of most attacks, making the combos in Brawl limited to:

U-tilt traps at low percentages
Chaingrabs
A few characters have combos in the form of jumping, backward aerial, then jumping again and backward aerial

Yeah, that's kinda what I said; it doesn't have combos in the fighting sense. It has combos according to normal gaming, which isn't the same as what the fighting genre has.

2) Saying "All other fighting games" screams "I have not played any other fighting games for more than one hour besides Smash!!" Only a few fighting games have "complex" button sequences, like Tekken, which most people already know is overly complicated (Tekken is awful). GOOD fighting games, like Street Fighter and Soul Calibur, don't have as simple a control scheme as Smash Bros, but they're very easy to learn, and the combos in those games are just like the ones in Smash; make-your-own combos, although they are mixed in with some pre-set combos the game designers put into the game.

When I say "complex button sequences" I'm talking about anything other than just tapping one button for a move or pushing a control stick somewhere. When it comes down to bigger moves, most fighters require a few different inputs to pull it off as opposed to just one or two buttons.

And I find it pretty funny that you'd say Tekken is awful while Soul Calibur is a good fighter, at least from the genre standpoint.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Yeah, that's kinda what I said; it doesn't have combos in the fighting sense. It has combos according to normal gaming, which isn't the same as what the fighting genre has.

What?

Okay, first off, the combos that are in Brawl fall 100% under fighting game combos. I don't know what you mean by "combos according to normal gaming," so I'm not even going to touch that.

Using your U-tilt over and over are known in other fighting games as juggling.

Chaingrabs are also in other fighting games (although most fighting games have much, much less severe chaingrabs than Brawl), and bad fighting games have things called infinites, which is what some chaingrabs can become under correct circumstances.

Aerial combos are not known in many other fighting games, but Guilty Gear certainly has them.

When I say "complex button sequences" I'm talking about anything other than just tapping one button for a move or pushing a control stick somewhere. When it comes down to bigger moves, most fighters require a few different inputs to pull it off as opposed to just one or two buttons.

It depends on the fighting game. Combos in Super Smash Brothers take multiple button presses.

The only game I can think of where you can do a combo by first doing the inputs is Killer Instinct in normal gameplay and Street Fighter for the Ultra and Super combos (which are supposed to do large amounts of damage, anyway). Otherwise, every other fighting game requires you to time your attacks, just like Super Smash Brothers does.

Most fighting game combos are FAR from complex. Sure, Street Fighter takes a bit of extra brain effort to do a quarter circle, but that's far from complex. If anything, Street Fighter-esque inputs use "complex" inputs for gameplay reasons.

And I find it pretty funny that you'd say Tekken is awful while Soul Calibur is a good fighter, at least from the genre standpoint.

Uh, I don't see how it's funny if you've played either of them.

Tekken is a good example of a supposedly serious fighting game with overcomplicated controls. Soul Calibur is a good example of a serious fighting game with very simple controls and mechanics.

Originally posted by TheBattler
What?

Okay, first off, the combos that are in Brawl fall 100% under fighting game combos. I don't know what you mean by "combos according to normal gaming," so I'm not even going to touch that.

Using your U-tilt over and over are known in other fighting games as juggling.

Chaingrabs are also in other fighting games (although most fighting games have much, much less severe chaingrabs than Brawl), and bad fighting games have things called infinites, which is what some chaingrabs can become under correct circumstances.

Aerial combos are not known in many other fighting games, but Guilty Gear certainly has them.

Those three? Yeah. Everything else though apparently isn't a real combo because Brawl's mechanics are based strictly around individual moves with a single input. More to the fact that there's really no stun moves in the game which means you can block/air dodge anything if you're quick enough.

I don't know, we had a whole argument about this here on pages 3 and 4. According to Tigerboi, the reason I said above is why Brawl doesn't have combos in the Fighting sense. Made sense to me.

Uh, I don't see how it's funny if you've played either of them.

Tekken is a good example of a supposedly serious fighting game with overcomplicated controls. Soul Calibur is a good example of a serious fighting game with very simple controls and mechanics.

Or the fact that in Soul Calibur, spamming with most characters is a far more effective strategy than spamming in other fighters. There's a reason why playing online in SCIV often blows.

Really, I have no problem with either franchise, I just don't get why one would be so much more legit than another.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Those three? Yeah. Everything else though apparently isn't a real combo because Brawl's mechanics are based strictly around individual moves with a single input.

No, that isn't the reason why there are almost no combos in Brawl.

More to the fact that there's really no stun moves in the game which means you can block/air dodge anything if you're quick enough.

This is the reason why there are almost no combos in Brawl.

What's your point?

I don't know, we had a whole argument about this here on pages 3 and 4. According to Tigerboi, the reason I said above is why Brawl doesn't have combos in the Fighting sense. Made sense to me.

>_>

So, what definition of "combo" are you going by? There is only one definition of combo, and it holds fast in ANY genre. If it doesn't, then it goes by some other name.

In an action game, such as Devil May Cry, a combo is when you attack your opponent quickly enough to keep them from attacking, which means guaranteed damage.

Your example in that topic is NOT a combo in ANY game, due to the fact that the opponent has options to avoid your dair. The dair to up-smash is a combo, though, although I'm not sure if it works quite well at certain percentages.

Or the fact that in Soul Calibur, spamming with most characters is a far more effective strategy than spamming in other fighters. There's a reason why playing online in SCIV often blows.

lololololol

Wow. lol

Or maybe it's because it's the lag online?

Really, the only matches that really matter in SCIV are the offline ones, because the online is so god-awful.

Really, I have no problem with either franchise, I just don't get why one would be so much more legit than another.

Wow, you're really annoying. I already explained it to you. Tekken has stuipdly complicated controls while Soul Calibur doesn't.

[I]Originally posted by TheBattler[i]
>_>

So, what definition of "combo" are you going by? There is only one definition of combo, and it holds fast in ANY genre. If it doesn't, then it goes by some other name.

In an action game, such as Devil May Cry, a combo is when you attack your opponent quickly enough to keep them from attacking, which means guaranteed damage.

You can do the same thing in Brawl provided you're quicker than your opponent, whereas with other fighters they're ****ed no matter what they do.

What happens in a lot of action games is that some enemies can perfectly get out of chain-attacks because they're not unbreakable combos as seen in certain fighters. Just because you hit the right buttons in Ninja Gaiden doesn't mean you're guaranteed to nail every last enemy type with each single move.

lololololol

Wow. lol

Or maybe it's because it's the lag online?

And because a lot of people spam on there.

lololololol

Wow. lol

Or maybe it's because it's the lag online?

Really, the only matches that really matter in SCIV are the offline ones, because the online is so god-awful.

Hasn't been that bad every time I played. Not the same as offline, but hardly broken. And spamming is still a problem even in offline.

Wow, you're really annoying.

Wow, that was good. The hell are you, ten?

I already explained it to you. Tekken has stuipdly complicated controls while Soul Calibur doesn't.

Yeah, and Soul Calibur has other issues that Tekken doesn't.

Originally Posted by Jeff

You can do the same thing in Brawl provided you're quicker than your opponent, whereas with other fighters they're ****ed no matter what they do.

Even if you're quicker than your opponent, it's not a combo. There is the potential to dodge, and some people will fulfill that potential.

What happens in a lot of action games is that some enemies can perfectly get out of chain-attacks because they're not unbreakable combos as seen in certain fighters. Just because you hit the right buttons in Ninja Gaiden doesn't mean you're guaranteed to nail every last enemy type with each single move.

You're missing the point.

It's not about "hitting the right buttons," it's about landing the right attacks. It's ALWAYS been about hitting the right attacks, and it's NEVER been about hitting the right buttons in (good) fighting games, unless you're talking about Killer Instinct.

And because a lot of people spam on there.

I don't see your point about Soul Calibur and spamming online. It doesn't detract from the game system that the online is horribad.

Hasn't been that bad every time I played. Not the same as offline, but hardly broken. And spamming is still a problem even in offline.

Precision is extremely important in a fighting game. Lag is lag in a fighting game, and it makes it bad.

Spamming is only a problem offline if you suck. That's the rule of any fighting game (except for crap like Killer Instinct)

Wow, that was good. The hell are you, ten?

What in the hell are you talking about? Did I insult you?

You're not getting the point, you keep on bringing up stuff that doesn't matter (like SC's offline) and you don't know what a combo is, in spite of me telling you. If you're doing it on purpose, you're annoying me. If you're not, and you're not addressing my points correctly, you're annoying me.

Yeah, and Soul Calibur has other issues that Tekken doesn't.

Please bring them up, but only if they apply to this conversation. That means, please bring up any control issues, please only bring up input issues, and the like. Don't bring up stuff like spamming online, since I (and every other good Soul Calibur player) know that the online sucks, and it really doesn't have much to do with how complex a game's inputs are.