Official SSBB Tier List

Originally Posted by Dark Link

I do. Not so much out of my state howsoever.

It's a start. I agree with what e_alert said. He listed off a few famous Melee names; do you know the current big names in Brawl? It takes a lot to understand the deep inner workings of this game. Videos are inadequate (though better than nothing). When you finally get that chance to play against one of the best, your whole world comes crashing down as you realize you're not very good at the game at all (that is precisely what happened to me when I first played HugS; I thought I was all that and a bag of chips until I played HugS, and then I saw myself as the worst scrub on the planet).

I'm not sure how serious you are about this game, but if you get the opportunity, travel as far away as possible! Meet other players. Learn new tricks. That is how you get good.

Originally Posted by e_alert

Dark Link, I'm pretty sure Buzz is referring to competition with an entry fee and a prize pot; if you're saying you go to competitions, based on your arguments, I figure you're going to Nintendo tourneys, or scrub local tourneys, or otherwise are new enough to the real competitive scene that you still haven't got a handle of how things go. I will make no assumptions about online tournaments, however (they're a joke, for the most part).

Nintendo tourneys that are actually hosted by Nintendo? No. Scrub loyal tournaments? Yes. Most of them aren't huge, per se, in terms of the number of people participating (no more than around 64 usually). 64 is a pretty hefty sum though.

Let's see if you're at least aware of the competitive scene Buzz and I are referring to. Do the names Ken, Azen, M2K or ChuDat (among others) mean anything to you? If not, I highly doubt you play the same competitive Brawl as we do. (Or, like earlier mentioned, you're just so new to the scene that you don't know the names yet.)

I recognize all those names except ChuDat.

Whatever the case is, you're wrong about the tier list. Meta Knight definitely has earned his place at the top of the current tier list, regardless of what anybody wants. Personally, I'd love Ice Climbers to be top tier; I'm sure someone like Sugarpoultry would like Wolf to be top tier. But the fact is, they're not, because they haven't earned that. Perhaps later on when the metagame evolves and other characters start winning tournaments and having better matchups, Meta Knight will lose his top spot.

I never said MK should be moved from his current tier position.

I will commend you on this, though: your arguments haven't been completely retarded like many others in this thread (not to mention names)

I'd much prefer to argue over the actual tier list itself rather than having to ridiculously defend that I have the "right" to argue against the tier list. To me, that's retarded (no offense).

Originally Posted by Dark Link

I'd much prefer to argue over the actual tier list itself rather than having to ridiculously defend that I have the "right" to argue against the tier list. To me, that's retarded (no offense).

No one is debating your right to argue the list. We're just pointing out that your words hold zero weight.

Originally Posted by TheBuzzSaw

No one is debating your right to argue the list. We're just pointing out that your words hold zero weight.

If you were simply pointing out things, we wouldn't be talking right now, and both you and e_a would have been on your merry way. This is obviously not the case.

Also, what makes you say that?

Originally Posted by Dark Link

Nintendo tourneys that are actually hosted by Nintendo? No. Scrub loyal tournaments? Yes. Most of them aren't huge, per se, in terms of the number of people participating (no more than around 64 usually). 64 is a pretty hefty sum though.

That's a good start, but as Buzz said, you really need to travel as much as you can before you can really make a good judgement on your skill level. But hey, at least we know we're talking about the same thing. :3

Originally Posted by Dark Link

I recognize all those names except ChuDat.

Ah, well fair enough. For the record, ChuDat was Melee's top Ice Climbers player and, I believe, the world's second-best Smash player at the time of Brawl's release (though I'm not 100% sure -- Buzz might be able to clarify).

Originally Posted by Dark Link

I never said MK should be moved from his current tier position.

Uhhh...

Hey, so you didn't. It was Dark_Hylian.

... >_>

I blame it on your similar usernames!

In any case, my point there still somewhat applies...

Originally Posted by Dark Link

I'd much prefer to argue over the actual tier list itself rather than having to ridiculously defend that I have the "right" to argue against the tier list. To me, that's retarded (no offense).

This:

Originally Posted by TheBuzzSaw

No one is debating your right to argue the list. We're just pointing out that your words hold zero weight.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

Also, what makes you say that?

Because everything you say seems to indicate that you don't have a full grasp of how Tier Lists work.

Originally Posted by e_alert

That's a good start, but as Buzz said, you really need to travel as much as you can before you can really make a good judgement on your skill level. But hey, at least we know we're talking about the same thing. :3

Considering I live in the most populated state within the US, I imagine I can raise my personal level of skill plenty before actually having to travel to different states for more difficult challenges.

Ah, well fair enough. For the record, ChuDat was Melee's top Ice Climbers player and, I believe, the world's second-best Smash player at the time of Brawl's release (though I'm not 100% sure -- Buzz might be able to clarify).

Now that you mention his background, I do somewhat recall his name. I never really followed his scene howsoever.

Uhhh...

Hey, so you didn't. It was Dark_Hylian.

... >_>

I blame it on your similar usernames!

In any case, my point there still somewhat applies...

Of course. Just not towards me. ;P

Because everything you say seems to indicate that you don't have a full grasp of how Tier Lists work.

I'm no fool. I've played plenty of fighting games before Brawl. You don't have to give me the 411 on how they work, as it would be unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

Considering I live in the most populated state within the US, I imagine I can raise my personal level of skill plenty before actually having to travel to different states for more difficult challenges.

You'll never get anywhere if you play the same group of people all the time. Playing new players (which are often not in your area) is the only way. And its even better if they are significantly better than you are.

Originally Posted by Dark Link

I'm no fool. I've played plenty of fighting games before Brawl. You don't have to give me the 411 on how they work, as it would be unnecessary.

Well, when you call the tier list wrong without any real background yourself, it's hard to take you seriously.

Originally Posted by <3!

You'll never get anywhere if you play the same group of people all the time. Playing new players (which are often not in your area) is the only way. And its even better if they are significantly better than you are.

Statewide, sugarpolutry. Statewide.

Originally Posted by Buzz

Well, when you call the tier list wrong without any real background yourself, it's hard to take you seriously.

This isn't some sort of glorified list where only the mightiest of mighty may question its exalted authority.

Don't take me seriously and be on merry way. Why pester me?

Originally Posted by Dark Link

This isn't some sort of glorified list where only the mightiest of mighty may question its exalted authority.

Don't take me seriously and be on merry way. Why pester me?

Well, my intention is not to come off as annoying (though, that may be an unfortunate side effect). I just have my own opinion of your opinions. Sure, the ones who made the list aren't perfect, buuuuuuut they sure as heck compete much more than anyone here. They have so much experience in various locations that others with minimal experience seem to make off-the-wall judgment calls.

Originally Posted by TheBuzzSaw

Well, my intention is not to come off as annoying (though, that may be an unfortunate side effect). I just have my own opinion of your opinions. Sure, the ones who made the list aren't perfect, buuuuuuut they sure as heck compete much more than anyone here. They have so much experience in various locations that others with minimal experience seem to make off-the-wall judgment calls.

When you persistently insist that I have no opinion or any say of questioning the tier list whatsoever, it sometimes comes off as of a slight annoyance. Perhaps I'm just easily annoyed?

The first tier list of any fighting game is virtually always switched around and redone. Me saying that the tier list is in need of redoing is just stating the inevitable obvious.

And for the record, I do not question the competence of the people who made up the tier list (if I somehow made that impression earlier).

OK, but I am primarily referring to comments like this:

Originally Posted by Dark Link

The first tier list of any fighting game is virtually always switched around and redone. Me saying that the tier list is in need of redoing is just stating the inevitable obvious.

Of course the list will change over time. I'm not implying that this current list is perfect and will remain this way. My point is that it is perfectly accurate for this current time period. I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again: even if someone discovers that Captain Falcon is actually godly, that has no bearing on this list here if the discovery comes in 2012. Sure, that'll affect the 2013 tier list, but we're in 2008 right now, and this tier list reflects what we know right now.

Sure, characters will move. That doesn't make this list here wrong. It just means that this list reflects the meta game as it was in 2008. If anything, I am very interested in hearing your opinions on which characters will shift around as their meta game evolves (as opposed to saying, "This list is busted; character X should be moved up").

Originally Posted by Dark Link

Statewide, sugarpolutry. Statewide.

You really don't know how much you're limiting your experience, do you?

What I wouldn't give to travel and play new people... It really is just an invaluable experience, where a single trip can teach you infinitely more than practicing against the same old crew, even if normally you would have played ten times as much as on the trip. Even if your state has loads and loads of Smashers, there's still comparatively little you can gain from choosing not to travel; eventually you hit a brick wall.



And yeah, what Buzz said. Let's stop arguing about semantics, and talk about predicting a future tier list; that would be far more interesting and productive than simply pointing out that the current tier list is flawed (because it's not, at least not in any significant way).

Buzz: I never said it was wrong, I said it was flawed. Anything that is not perfect is flawed. This tier list is not perfect, as it is inevitably subjected to change. Thus, it is flawed.

I would argue that Toon Link needs to be put higher on the tier list if it were not for everyone agreeing with me. If someone came along and demonstrated why Toon Link shouldn't be placed higher on the tier list, then I'd happily debate with them as to why he should otherwise.

Originally Posted by e_a

What I wouldn't give to travel and play new people... It really is just an invaluable experience, where a single trip can teach you infinitely more than practicing against the same old crew, even if normally you would have played ten times as much as on the trip. Even if your state has loads and loads of Smashers, there's still comparatively little you can gain from choosing not to travel; eventually you hit a brick wall.

I live in California with over 30 million people. I don't think I would be able to play all the possible smashers within this state in one lifetime. And by lifetime, I mean until the next smash game comes out.

And yeah, what Buzz said. Let's stop arguing about semantics, and talk about predicting a future tier list; that would be far more interesting and productive than simply pointing out that the current tier list is flawed (because it's not, at least not in any significant way).

I'd gladly do so if someone instigated a conversation as such.

Well then I assume in the next tier list Jigglypuff will move up into a low-mid tier spot. And I think the IC's will move to about the spot where marth is in the tier list.

3. This list is based on a combination of tournament result data, extensive discussions with top players and tournament hosts and looking at general trends in play in the current competitive metagame. It took a lot of work on the part of some of the best minds in Smash to compile this list.

That's stupid. They should just stick with the tournament data they have.

Originally Posted by Princess Glitter Fairy

That's stupid. They should just stick with the tournament data they have.

Discussion is required to properly interpret the data. You can't just look at tournament results and automatically know which characters performed better overall.

Originally Posted by Princess Glitter Fairy

That's stupid. They should just stick with the tournament data they have.

Not enough to determine a tier-list. Some details are obvious enough not to even require tournament data. You don't need to have tournament data to be able to see that Snake that is clearly better than Link, for example. Just how much better than link he is is what's (eventually) determined by tournament data.

At the same time though, Snake is also better than MK in theory. But, that theory has yet to be proven in tournaments.

I like how this tier list demands the best characters... Since I can practically beat anyone with Lucas...

Originally Posted by Bluehorn Enigma

I like how this tier list demands the best characters... Since I can practically beat anyone with Lucas...

Wow, there wasn't a hint of arrogance in that statement.

I challenge you to an online match against your Lucas.